Altar Calls are

[Maryann_C]

M,

I see that you have changed your mind.

That is my choice

 

[Maryann_C]

M,

I appreciate your encore. You may want to search this site for what is said about Lanciano. It is not required by Catholics to be believed and is considered private revelation. You may also want to view this thread concerning the real presence…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579920

Pay attention to those that doubt. Lanciano I believe comes up in the discussion. Beliefs are hard to change.

Thank you for the link I will look after work. I do understand these things are not required to be believed BUT scientific evidence is exactly that and that is what I propose as proof of the real presence.

Beliefs are hard to change that does not make it impossible - look at Saul/Paul. Admittedly he had to be ‘struck by lightning’ but the point is that hard does not = impossible.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

We have an altar call in the Byzantine Rite . . .

“Approach with fear of God and with faith!”

Amen!

 

[IggyAntiochus]

I see. But from where does a pastor’s authority come? Isn’t it the case that his job is based on the support of his congregation?

The pastor’s authority comes from Christ as he is the representative of Christ. The congregation is to regard him as such. Now, a congregation can choose to be disobedient to his called authority. However, that is always the case regardless of which church tradition it is. That is something that is addressed via church discipline.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

How do you know that only men are called ?

Paul addresses this in his pastoral epistles, vis a vie the vocations of men and women.

 

[Maryann_C]

Paul addresses this in his pastoral epistles, vis a vie the vocations of men and women.

On Holy orders specifically what verse?

 

[IggyAntiochus]

On Holy orders specifically what verse?

This has a number of resources on the topic from a Lutheran perspective. angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.womenpastors.html

 

[JRRTFAN]

How do you know that we don’t?

I believe that your research will reveal that Fr. Luther deep sixed the idea of a priesthood and denied the sacramentality of Holy Orders. That pretty much deep sixes the idea of a consecration and thus a “real Presence” in the Eucharist.

 

[grandfather]

I believe that your research will reveal that Fr. Luther deep sixed the idea of a priesthood and denied the sacramentality of Holy Orders. That pretty much deep sixes the idea of a consecration and thus a “real Presence” in the Eucharist.

Some years ago I attended the funeral of my Lutheran aunt. After the funeral the minister came to the luncheon and sat next to me. We had never met. He told me that when John Paul II became pope his Lutheran synod petitioned the pope to allow Catholics and members of his synod to have intercommunion. The pope said no of course and the minister said the members of his group were very disappointed and could not understand why, because both Catholics and Lutherans “BELIEVE THE SAME THING” about the Eucharist.

He said we both believe in the REAL PRESENCE so what is the problem.

I said, “It is a matter of Orders”.

He understood immediately. The ability or power to confect the Eucharist requires the minister of the sacrament to be ordained. He said that the members of his synod were discussing Orders at that time and they disagreed with one another. Some said Orders are necessary and some “become apoplectic” at the thought of even considering it.

He then said he wished the pope had not declared women could not be priests, because that put the possibility of reunification with Lutherans in the grave. His position was that women can be ordained. So some Lutherans say women can be ordained to ministry and others say no. They are divided, both claiming scripture as their authority to exist and teach what they teach.

I said if Lutherans among themselves can not agree on Orders then how could he expect the the pope to recognize Lutheran ministers as valid ministers of the altar.

On another occassion I was corresponding with a woman Lutheran minister who was drawn to the Eastern Catholic tradition. She was outraged that the pope or Catholics would be so arrogant to even question someone else’s (hers) orders or claim to be validly ordained to confect the Eucharist. She really believed that what she did in church on Sunday made Christ present in bread and wine.

My response was why be upset with Catholics or the pope, because many Lutherans say she can not be a Lutheran minister and confect the Eucharist. She and her congregation and many like them claim to be Lutherans, while other Lutherans say she is no minister, and she is upset with Catholics for not believing she has valid Orders and her communion is not real.

For the conservative ones who claim the Bible as their sole source of doctrine, the Bible affirms that their are three types of ordained ministers, episcopoi (bishops), presbyters (priests) and deacons.

What in any religion makes a priest a priest, by definition? A priest is a person who offers sacrifice. So for the Protestants who claim the Bible as their sole doctrinal authority it is selfcontradictory to say the Chruch has no priests. That is what the Lutherans who were debating Orders were struggling with.

But if the Church does have priests then the Eucharist has to be a sacrifice of propitiation, because that is the sacrifice offered by the Church’s priests from the beginning.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Some years ago I attended the funeral of my Lutheran aunt. After the funeral the minister came to the luncheon and sat next to me. We had never met. He told me that when John Paul II became pope his Lutheran synod petitioned the pope to allow Catholics and members of his synod to have intercommunion. The pope said no of course and the minister said the members of his group were very disappointed and could not understand why, because both Catholics and Lutherans “BELIEVE THE SAME THING” about the Eucharist.

He said we both believe in the REAL PRESENCE so what is the problem.

I said, “It is a matter of Orders”.

.

I don’t want to put words in a Lutheran’s mouth but my understanding is that Lutherans belive in consubstantiation, not transubstantiation, that the bread and wine remain bread and wine while at the same time Christ is present in them. This is not the same as Catholics and Orthodox believe, which is that there is no more bread and wine but is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus.

I would also think that a Missouri Synod Lutheran would not agree with the pastor you met relative to female ordination. I think, before we can talk too much about reconciliation and reunification with Protestants they all ought to get reconciled with each other so we only have one set of Protestant theology with which to reconcile.

 

[Maryann_C]

Speaking of Alters. I just saw a TV preacher from the 70s ( most definitely because of the style of dress) and the alter which very clearly has " Do this in remembrance of me" written on it and what is on that alter? A massive flower arrangement that almost obscures the words that Jesus spoke. The preacher is talking about the Holy Spirit and what he believed for 17 years but now understands differently !! Made me think of this thread.

 

[gcharles]

Alter calls are good. It’s when someone becomes born again and receives their robe. To keep it as white as snow it must be washed in the blood of Christ. To go to the Marriage Supper of the lamb the robe must be pure white. To keep it white you must take the Eucharist.

 

[bmonk]

From a Catholic viewpoint, Altar Calls are only one moment of a process: the point where the person wakes up to salvation, as it were.

Grace is working in the person before that moment, to lead him to that realization. And grace continues to work after that, to complete the process: baptism, following Christ as a disciple and a member of his Body, along with the other sacraments.

I’ve often chuckled over the insistence that baptism and the other sacraments are “magic” or “human works”–were they either, they would be ineffective–but that an Altar Call is not, because it is effective in giving grace. It seems, by their insistence on it, they make it more magical than our process, and it is less Scriptural than our Baptism.

 

[bmonk]

Alter calls are good. It’s when someone becomes born again and receives their robe. To keep it as white as snow it must be washed in the blood of Christ. To go to the Marriage Supper of the lamb the robe must be pure white. To keep it white you must take the Eucharist.

Of course, we would respond that it’s at Baptism, not the Altar Call, that we receive the white robe (it’s even in the ritual, along with the light from the Easter Candle). To make the Altar Call the only moment of salvation makes it, to my understanding, dependent more on our human response to God than on God’s action in saving us.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

Not Biblical…

trinity-baptist-church.com/altar.shtml

This author states that for 1800 years before Finney there were no Altar Calls…probably because there were no groups that did this…comments.

Yes and no. I’m assuming he’s talking about the “invitation”, in which case he’s right.

The whole “…and now, with every head bowed and every eye closed…” thing originated with Finney and isn’t Biblical. I think their intentions are good, those who practice this, but it’s not Biblical.

Now, on the other hand, if you’re talking about an altar call where people come forward for prayer, I’m all for that.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yes and no. I’m assuming he’s talking about the “invitation”, in which case he’s right.

The whole “…and now, with every head bowed and every eye closed…” thing originated with Finney and isn’t Biblical. I think their intentions are good, those who practice this, but it’s not Biblical.

Now, on the other hand, if you’re talking about an altar call where people come forward for prayer, I’m all for that.

Is the altar call that your for; the one coming up for prayer? or the altar call used by most Evangelicals inorder to be saved or enter the kingdom of God?

 

[ltwin]

From a Catholic viewpoint, Altar Calls are only one moment of a process: the point where the person wakes up to salvation, as it were.

Grace is working in the person before that moment, to lead him to that realization. And grace continues to work after that, to complete the process: baptism, following Christ as a disciple and a member of his Body, along with the other sacraments.

I’ve often chuckled over the insistence that baptism and the other sacraments are “magic” or “human works”–were they either, they would be ineffective–but that an Altar Call is not, because it is effective in giving grace. It seems, by their insistence on it, they make it more magical than our process, and it is less Scriptural than our Baptism.

I don’t know about magic, but anytime God’s grace is involved its certainly divinely supernatural.

Your second paragraph, the one about the altar call only being part of the process, is what I understand the altar call to be. What you do at an altar is respond to God. That is just the first step. There is a whole lot of “working out your salvation with fear and trembling” that happens after the altar call.

And its not that evangelicals think we can look up a verse in scripture and see an “invitation” or altar call clearly outlined. However, We can find Peter on the day of Pentecost preaching and telling his listeners that to be saved they should repent and be baptized. We know that scripture says “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13). The altar call is not what saves you. Its calling on the Lord and repenting of you sins. You can call on God anywhere: an altar at church, your bedroom, the middle of Walmart.

 

[PACKAROO]

May i interject?
Simply put as **2peter 1:20 **stated ‘’ that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation’’…

**the church is guided by the holy spirit, not **by calvin, luther, russel,smith or anyothers —but those appointed and ordained by bishops— as was the case since jesus and the apostles.

So this whole discussion on what is , what isnt — is mute. What does the living magesterium of the holy catholic church say? Rejecting what *they say *makes you a private interpreter…

**2peter 3:16 ** ‘’ in all his epistles…are certain things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstable distort, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Mark 16:16 ‘‘whoever believes and is baptized will be saved’’

altar calls are a first start and fine as the road to baptism.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t know about magic, but anytime God’s grace is involved its certainly divinely supernatural.

Your second paragraph, the one about the altar call only being part of the process, is what I understand the altar call to be. What you do at an altar is respond to God. That is just the first step. There is a whole lot of “working out your salvation with fear and trembling” that happens after the altar call.

And its not that evangelicals think we can look up a verse in scripture and see an “invitation” or altar call clearly outlined. However, We can find Peter on the day of Pentecost preaching and telling his listeners that to be saved they should repent and be baptized. We know that scripture says “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13). The altar call is not what saves you. Its calling on the Lord and repenting of you sins. You can call on God anywhere: an altar at church, your bedroom, the middle of Walmart.

twin,

We know that you have quoted Romans 10:13 and Paul in his letter in Romans 10:11 and 10:13 is quoting Isaiah and Joel

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation:** he that believeth shall not make haste. **17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

The Day of the LORD

30“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31“The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

If you recognize that Paul is addressing Judaizing Christians in the letter from Romans 3-11 and that the letter is written to Christians that while you want to believe that quoting this passage refers to your notion of “being saved” it has nothing to do with that and more to do with Paul talking to some 1st Century Jewish Christians reinterpreting OT passages in light of their Judaizing tendencies.

You misquote Paul.

 

[ltwin]

Sorry, don’t know how much clearer it can be: " if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." I don’t think its so much that I’m “misquoting” him as that I’m taking what he says at face value.