Altar Calls-Non-Catholic/Orthodox

[PRmerger]

PRMerger–I was hoping your question to me was not an attempt at a adversarial “Gotcha” question.

I don’t understand, AWM.

What question do you perceive as a possible “gotcha” question?

 

[ltwin]

I am confused about your paradigm.

Is it: if it’s not found in Scripture it’s permitted

OR

If it’s not found in Scripture it’s prohibited.

Neither. Something that is not found in Scripture could be spiritually evil or it could be spiritually edifying. Each concept or practice or custom not explicitly found in Scripture must be judged on its own merits as to whether it supports and conveys biblical truth and edifies the body of Christ.

The altar call, for example, is simply an arrangement in which individuals who feel so led can have the opportunity to pray and receive prayer within the context of a church service. It facilitates prayer, therefore, evangelicals find it Scriptural.

Evangelical Christians give our lives to Christ at the altar. We confess our sins to God and to one another at the altar. We lay down our burdens at the altar. We dedicate our children standing at the altar. The list goes on, but all of these are Scriptural activities.

 

[Darryl_B]

They don’t seem similar to me. In Communion we receive from the Lord. In altar calls we give to the Lord—we lay down our lives before Him, or we lay down our sins in repentance, or we cast our cares or our gratitude before Him.

That can also be considered an integral part of the Eucharist/Communion though.

 

[Darryl_B]

You seem to be asking me to observe the actions of the Catholic but ignore the heart of the Catholic and then asking me to ignore the actions of the Protestant but observe the heart of the Protestant.

 

[ltwin]

You seem to be asking me to observe the actions of the Catholic but ignore the heart of the Catholic and then asking me to ignore the actions of the Protestant but observe the heart of the Protestant.

Who are you referring to? I’m having trouble following what you are saying. Can you explain what you mean?

 

[Darryl_B]

I was referring to AbideWithMe’s comment that Communion is a Receiving whereas “altar call” is a Giving. I cannot regard Communion this way as it would in effect be removing

we lay down our lives before Him, or we lay down our sins in repentance, or we cast our cares or our gratitude before Him

from the Communion process. I would therefore be required to consider Communion as a purely action based event, which would require me to ignore the passion of a Catholic receiving the Eucharist who can very well include the above quote as part of that action.

Therefore the comparison of the Catholic Eucharist is remarkably similar statistically in both actions and passions as the equivalent “altar call” of the Protestants. Which would indicate one had been borrowed off another.

 

[ltwin]

I was referring to AbideWithMe’s comment that Communion is a Receiving whereas “altar call” is a Giving. I cannot regard Communion this way as it would in effect be removing

from the Communion process. I would therefore be required to consider Communion as a purely action based event, which would require me to ignore the passion of a Catholic receiving the Eucharist who can very well include the above quote as part of that action.

Therefore the comparison of the Catholic Eucharist is remarkably similar statistically in both actions and passions as the equivalent “altar call” of the Protestants. Which would indicate one had been borrowed off another.

It may indicate that to you, but it doesn’t indicate that to me. You are projecting Catholic ideas about Holy Communion onto an evangelical altar call and then saying that evangelicals stole the altar call from Catholics. Just because as a Catholic you find the evangelical altar call similar to a Catholic Eucharist does not indicate that evangelicals are “mimicking” Catholics. As western Christians, evangelicals naturally have a lot in common with Latin Rite Catholics. It’s not surprising that there are some similarities.

However, just because an altar call has some similarities with Catholics receiving Communion, there is no historical evidence that it was developed as a way to copy Catholicism. The altar call as a practice developed in revival meetings on the American frontier out of the mourner’s bench from people who no doubt wanted to stay as far away from anything Catholic as they possibly could. It seems that you are making a really big claim without any real evidence.

 

[Darryl_B]

It may indicate that to you, but it doesn’t indicate that to me. You are projecting Catholic ideas about Holy Communion onto an evangelical altar call and then saying that evangelicals stole the altar call from Catholics. Just because as a Catholic you find the evangelical altar call similar to a Catholic Eucharist does not indicate that evangelicals are “mimicking” Catholics. As western Christians, evangelicals naturally have a lot in common with Latin Rite Catholics. It’s not surprising that there are some similarities.

However, just because an altar call has some similarities with Catholics receiving Communion, there is no historical evidence that it was developed as a way to copy Catholicism. The altar call as a practice developed in revival meetings on the American frontier out of the mourner’s bench from people who no doubt wanted to stay as far away from anything Catholic as they possibly could. It seems that you are making a really big claim without any real evidence.

There is no historical evidence that it was developed as a way to copy Catholicism. There is also no historical evidence that it wasn’t. Ultimately what went through the heads of the protestants who instigated the Rite are unlikely to be accurately documented in their writings. However statistically the number of pointers/markers are too many for random coincidence.

I hope you are not too upset by it, and see the origin of your roots.

 

[ltwin]

There is no historical evidence that it was developed as a way to copy Catholicism. There is also no historical evidence that it wasn’t. Ultimately what went through the heads of the protestants who instigated the Rite are unlikely to be accurately documented in their writings. However statistically the number of pointers/markers are too many for random coincidence.

I hope you are not too upset by it, and see the origin of your roots.

I don’t understand what you are talking about is all. You note some general similarities to back up huge historical speculation on your part. There are plenty of “origin points” you can find in evangelicalism that link back to Rome. You don’t have to manufacture a link between the altar call and receiving Jesus in the Eucharist.

And as for being upset about the origin of my roots, I’m not upset at all. I know exactly where I come from and am proud of that. I am an adherent of Pentecostalism, a tradition emerging at the start of the 20th century out of the Wesleyan-Holiness Movement which itself derives from Methodism and the teachings of its founder, John Wesley. Wesley was an Anglican priest. The Church of England split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1530s.

 

[Darryl_B]

I don’t understand what you are talking about is all. You note some general similarities to back up huge historical speculation on your part. There are plenty of “origin points” you can find in evangelicalism that link back to Rome. You don’t have to manufacture a link between the altar call and receiving Jesus in the Eucharist.

And as for being upset about the origin of my roots, I’m not upset at all. I know exactly where I come from and am proud of that. I am an adherent of Pentecostalism, a tradition emerging at the start of the 20th century out of the Wesleyan-Holiness Movement which itself derives from Methodism and the teachings of its founder, John Wesley. Wesley was an Anglican priest. The Church of England split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1530s.

That is like saying third cousin thrice removed. Founders upon founders upon founders. The only founder is Jesus Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Neither. Something that is not found in Scripture could be spiritually evil or it could be spiritually edifying. Each concept or practice or custom not explicitly found in Scripture must be judged on its own merits as to whether it supports and conveys biblical truth and edifies the body of Christ.

Neither?

So it appears that you can apply “it’s not in the Bible” any way you choose. You can tell Catholics: it’s not in the Bible, therefore you ought not be doing this, or teaching this, or praying that way…

but if Catholics in turn ask you where your particular practice is found in Scripture you can respond with: it doesn’t have to be. It’s not prohibited anywhere, so it’s permitted.

Do you see why you ought to pick one paradigm (if it’s not in the Bible it’s permitted … OR…if it’s not in the Bible it’s prohibited), otherwise you allow yourself to be the arbiter of all religious beliefs/practices?

.

 

[ltwin]

Neither?

So it appears that you can apply “it’s not in the Bible” any way you choose. You can tell Catholics: it’s not in the Bible, therefore you ought not be doing this, or teaching this, or praying that way…

but if Catholics in turn ask you where your particular practice is found in Scripture you can respond with: it doesn’t have to be. It’s not prohibited anywhere, so it’s permitted.

Do you see why you ought to pick one paradigm (if it’s not in the Bible it’s permitted … OR…if it’s not in the Bible it’s prohibited), otherwise you allow yourself to be the arbiter of all religious beliefs/practices?

.

If I followed your advice, I’d have two radical options. 1) Electricity is not permitted in church. 2) Getting high on marijuana is permitted inside a church.

What my approach (which isn’t really my approach at all) is that both the use of electricity and marijuana use in the church should be judged by Scripture. Is the preaching of the gospel or the edification of the church harmed by electricity? No, it is aided by its use. Is the preaching of the gospel or the edification of the church harmed by marijuana use inside a church? Uh, yeah.

This actually has nothing to do with Catholicism. They are in an entirely different communion than I am, and if they want to do believe things that in my opinion are wildly speculative given that the Bible says very little about those topics on which to base a doctrine, that is between them and God. I feel safer not doing that.

 

[Nicea325]

Altar: a usually raised structure or place on which sacrifices are offered or incense is burned in worship

In most protestant churches when they refer to the “altar”, they are talking about the elevated area where their clergy are.

It doesn’t have to be a table of sacrifice.

Understood.

 

[Nicea325]

If I followed your advice, I’d have two radical options. 1) Electricity is not permitted in church. 2) Getting high on marijuana is permitted inside a church.

What my approach (which isn’t really my approach at all) is that both the use of electricity and marijuana use in the church should be judged by Scripture. Is the preaching of the gospel or the edification of the church harmed by electricity? No, it is aided by its use. Is the preaching of the gospel or the edification of the church harmed by marijuana use inside a church? Uh, yeah.

This actually has nothing to do with Catholicism. They are in an entirely different communion than I am, and if they want to do believe things that in my opinion are wildly speculative given that the Bible says very little about those topics on which to base a doctrine, that is between them and God. I feel safer not doing that.

No offense,but the whole premise or argument it is not in the Bible is bogus. No where is it taught or taught by God Himself. It is a man-made principle,doctrine or whatever term the thousands of denominations use today.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Second, they attack ancient liturgical churches for sacrificing Jesus over again?

Itwin:
We are not sacrificing Jesus over again. The sacrifice is of ourselves. The idea is that at the “altar” we lay down our old lives, the old man, our sins and our problems. When we rise up from the “altar” we do not pick back up all these things. We turn them over to Jesus for good.

Sorry,but that is not exactly what I talking about. I am not making reference to non-Catholic purposes of an “altar” call. I am stating how many non-Catholics attack the ancient liturgical churches (Catholic,Orthodox,Coptic,etc) of basically re-sacrificing Jesus because an altar is used.

 

[PRmerger]

If I followed your advice, I’d have two radical options. 1) Electricity is not permitted in church. 2) Getting high on marijuana is permitted inside a church.

'zactly.

So how does a pastor decide what’s permissible and prohibited when Scripture says nothing at all about electricity and marijuana?

What my approach (which isn’t really my approach at all) is that both the use of electricity and marijuana use in the church should be judged by Scripture

Right. And I don’t see how this works. It appears that it is an arbitrary standard based on a pastor’s preference. Yes, electricity is good. No, marijuana is bad. But the decision is most certainly not derived from Scripture.

And where does it say that we need to judge all things by Scripture? That appears to be a man-made paradigm as well.

 

[Nicea325]

'zactly.

So how does a pastor decide what’s permissible and prohibited when Scripture says nothing at all about electricity and marijuana?

Right. And I don’t see how this works. It appears that it is an arbitrary standard based on a pastor’s preference. Yes, electricity is good. No, marijuana is bad. But the decision is most certainly not derived from Scripture.

And where does it say that we need to judge all things by Scripture? That appears to be a man-made paradigm as well.

That is what I have never understood with non-Catholics and the whole premise of:

It is needs to be measured up against Scripture

But where in the Bible is it taught or even hinted by Jesus or th 12? Yes Scripture is to be used as an authority,but to claim everything must said or taught in Scripture is simply false and pure conjecture.

 

[PRmerger]

This actually has nothing to do with Catholicism. They are in an entirely different communion than I am, and if they want to do believe things that in my opinion are wildly speculative given that the Bible says very little about those topics on which to base a doctrine, that is between them and God. I feel safer not doing that.

But why do you give submission to the Church’s authority when it comes to the canon of the NT? If they got it right about this, why do you think the Church is in error about all these other things you claim to be “wildly speculative”?

 

[Nicea325]

But why do you give submission to the Church’s authority when it comes to the canon of the NT? If they got it right about this, why do you think the Church is in error about all these other things you claim to be “wildly speculative”?

Easily. Because it conflicts with many new novel beliefs such as:

Where is that in the Bible?

 

[PRmerger]

Easily. Because it conflicts with many new novel beliefs such as:

Where is that in the Bible?

Reminds me of a quote I read by apologist Mark Shea: "The original 16th-century revolutionaries had the mysterious conviction that you could attack a procession of Catholic worshippers, knock the miter off the priest’s head, dash the Eucharist to the ground, burn the vestments, smash the images, and overturn the altar – yet inexplicably seize their Holy Book and declare it an infallible oracle."