Altar Calls-Non-Catholic/Orthodox

[PRmerger]

It is derived from Scripture.

No, it is not, ltwin.

There is nothing in Scripture that tells you whether electricity is permissible or permitted.

Electricity is a utility. Nothing from Scripture tells us that we are to limit certain utilities in the house of God. Early churches were first held in people’s homes. If there had been electricity in the 1st century, there would have been electricity in homes and therefore electricity in the churches.

Ah, so here you are applying the paradigm “If it’s not forbidden in Scripture, then it is permitted.”

So I hope you allow Catholics this same paradigm with our devotions, such as the Rosary, the Scala Santa, el Rocio… It’s not forbidden in Scripture, therefore it is permitted.

It’s a principle that helps us avoid making circumstantial beliefs into doctrine.

It also appears to be a man-made principle. That’s fine. As long as you have no objection to man-made principles in church practice and church teaching.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Because the fact is that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have erred.

My goodness…

You know, there is a reason why James and Peter quote a particular Proverb:

James 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

So you, Itwin, stand as Judge, Jury and Executioner?

The audacity…

The Protestant Churches have erred. I don’t view receiving the canon as “submission to the Church’s authority.” I see it as the Church submitting to the authority of God and by consensus over a period of time identifying those books that had apostolic origin and authority. One way they did this were to look at the books that the people of God were already reading. Those that were universal and that were judged to be authentic were chosen.

Without the Church you have no canon. Your overly simplistic manner of discerning the writings inspired by God from others show lack of understanding and awareness of Christian history.

The Catholic Church is God’s just as the Scriptures are God’s. Your attempt to separate one from the other is disrespectful.

 

[Brandall]

Note to self: exit immediately any forum topic that is bait for disagreement.

 

[PRmerger]

Note to self: exit immediately any forum topic that is bait for disagreement.

A forum is where people can present their ideas, disagree, and come to a better understanding of truth through these disagreements.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Note to self: exit immediately any forum topic that is bait for disagreement.

Too late, you posted

 

[ltwin]

No, it is not, ltwin.

There is nothing in Scripture that tells you whether electricity is permissible or permitted.

No, but we are informed by Scripture what is permitted or forbidden. So, even though Scripture says nothing about electricity in church, it can inform us what we can or cannot allow.

Ah, so here you are applying the paradigm “If it’s not forbidden in Scripture, then it is permitted.”

No, I am not. You are trying really hard to put me in that paradigm. Electricity is neither forbidden or permitted in Scripture. However, Scripture can still inform us whether it would be appropriate or beneficial to install electricity in church buildings. This is because Scripture gives us tons of information about how we are to worship God and how all things are to be done decently and in order. From the whole body of Scripture, we can find guiding principles for our common life in the 21st century.

So I hope you allow Catholics this same paradigm with our devotions,

Why do I have to allow you to do anything? Catholics have convictions that contradict convictions that Protestants have. OK. I do not beg for Catholicism’s approval of my belief, and I have no expectation that Catholics will beg me for approval of their’s.

So, I am having trouble understanding your request. I have no power to “allow” you to do anything.

such as the Rosary, the Scala Santa, el Rocio… It’s not forbidden in Scripture, therefore it is permitted.

Prayer beads and retracing the steps of Jesus are not in themselves problematic if they aid in prayer and devotion and are not seen as a “work” to merit grace. The content of prayers or acts of devotions before statues of Mary, however, could (at least to Protestant sensibilities) border on idolatry, and that would be something that clearly contradicts Scripture.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Note to self: exit immediately any forum topic that is bait for disagreement.

LOL

 

[AbideWithMe]

My goodness…

You know, there is a reason why James and Peter quote a particular Proverb:

James 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

So you, Itwin, stand as Judge, Jury and Executioner?

The audacity…

Without the Church you have no canon. Your overly simplistic manner of discerning the writings inspired by God from others show lack of understanding and awareness of Christian history.

The Catholic Church is God’s just as the Scriptures are God’s. Your attempt to separate one from the other is disrespectful.

Isaiah–But, the Orthodox Churches all believe as well that the Catholic Church has erred. Would you accuse them all, including those elders among their leaders, of audacity?

 

[ltwin]

The audacity…

What audacity? I am a Protestant. As such, I can be expected to say what Protestants have always said and believed. From the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion:

XIX. Of the Church.
THE visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in the which the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ’s ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same. As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch have erred: so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of ceremonies, but also in matters of faith.

XX. Of the Authority of the Church.
THE Church hath power to decree rites or ceremonies and authority in controversies of faith; and yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain anything contrary to God’s word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another. Wherefore, although the Church be a witness and a keeper of Holy Writ: yet, as it ought not to decree anything against the same, so besides the same ought it not to enforce anything to be believed for necessity of salvation.

XXI. Of the authority of General Councils.
GENERAL Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of princes. And when they be gathered together, forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and word of God, they may err and sometime have erred, even in things pertaining to God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of Holy Scripture.​

How is me saying what Protestants have said since the 16th century audacious?

 

[PRmerger]

No, but we are informed by Scripture what is permitted or forbidden. So, even though Scripture says nothing about electricity in church, it can** inform** us what we can or cannot allow.

Fair enough.

Then what Scriptures can you cite that would** inform** a pastor in deciding whether it was forbidden or permitted to use electricity in his church?

 

[AbideWithMe]

I understand that you don’t feel that way…but you do realize that you are being inconsistent with your approach…and that you have an untenable position “I believe the Church can err and I believe that the canon of the NT is without error even if this same Church, that can err, is the ONLY way I know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired.”

Untenable.

PR, I does seem to me that you are trying to force-fit other people into a particular position, and then concluding they are being unreasonable if they don’t accept your line of thinking as being as logical as it appears to you.

 

[PRmerger]

So, I am having trouble understanding your request. I have no power to “allow” you to do anything.

Basically, all I am saying is that you ought not object to any Catholic practice with the question, “But where is that practice found in the Bible?”

The content of prayers or acts of devotions before statues of Mary, however, could (at least to Protestant sensibilities) border on idolatry, and that would be something that clearly contradicts Scripture.

I don’t think that Catholics should stop acts of devotions before statues any more than Protestants should stop acts of devotions before their Bible, lest they be accused of bibliolatry.

 

[ltwin]

Fair enough.

Then what Scriptures can you cite that would** inform** a pastor in deciding whether it was forbidden or permitted to use electricity in his church?

Since Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that all things should be done for edification, it can be argued that electricity facilitates edification: lights (so people can see and even read better), air conditioning so old people don’t die in a hot church, and microphones so everyone can hear.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, I does seem to me that you are trying to force-fit other people into a particular position, and then concluding they are being unreasonable if they don’t accept your line of thinking as being as logical as it appears to you.

Logic dictates that Bible Alone proponents have to follow either of these paradigms:
“If it’s not in Scripture, it’s permitted”

OR

“If it’s not in Scripture, it’s forbidden.”

There are no other choices.

 

[PRmerger]

Since Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that all things should be done for edification, it can be argued that electricity facilitates edification: lights (so people can see and even read better), air conditioning so old people don’t die in a hot church, and microphones so everyone can hear.

That seems to be a paradigm that allows for all sorts of things in churches.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This is not true. The development of the "altar call’ has nothing to do with mimicking a Catholic communion. This article from Christianity Today gives the history: “Walk the Aisle: Popularized by frontier camp meetings and Charles Finney’s “anxious bench,” the altar call became an evangelistic staple of American churches.” It’s worth reading the whole thing but I’ll quote one relevant part:

Thanks for posting the explanation from ‘Christianity Today’. My own sense is that ‘Altar Calls’ are actually less practiced today then in the 1800’s. I don’t have a lot of experience but the few times I have worshiped in Presbyterian and Methodist churches they did not provide for this ceremonial opportunity.

Somewhat disconnected to this topic is that the use of altar rails seem to be disappearing among many Christians including Roman Catholics. I am saddened to see them go but understand that the distribution of the Sacrament is fastest when the people line up and go to a station to receive Mass rather than kneel for Communion.

 

[ltwin]

Basically, all I am saying is that you ought not object to any Catholic practice with the question, “But where is that practice found in the Bible?”

I don’t ask, “where is that found in the Bible.” My thought process is more along the lines of, “what does the Bible say about [something]? OK, now that we see what Scripture has to say about [something], does [this] fit the definition of [something]. If so, is [this] appropriate for Christian doctrine or practice?” You can place whatever issue is being considered in the brackets: for example “idolatry” for [something] and “Marian devotions/doctrines” for [this].

I don’t think that Catholics should stop acts of devotions before statues any more than Protestants should stop acts of devotions before their Bible, lest they be accused of bibliolatry.

You don’t have to agree with me. You are obviously trying to understand my views on Sola Scriptura, so I am telling you the way things look from my perspective. I’m never seen anyone perform acts of devotion to a Bible, so I don’t really know how to even respond to a charge of “bibliolatry.”

 

[ltwin]

That seems to be a paradigm that allows for all sorts of things in churches.

How so?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Logic dictates that Bible Alone proponents have to follow either of these paradigms:
“If it’s not in Scripture, it’s permitted”

OR

“If it’s not in Scripture, it’s forbidden.”

There are no other choices.

PR, the forum rules really are that only one topic is allowed per thread. I know I’ve often wandered off-topic, but still, it’s a useful rule.

It seems to me that you are trying to lead us off on a tangent. I’m not sure if you still misunderstand the meaning of Sola Scriptura despite the threads on it, or what’s going on. Whatever the misunderstanding springs from, I’m serious about trying to stick with a “Just Say No to Rabbit Trails” effort on my part.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Abide,

This sounds like when one of my kids is grounded and they bring a situation from one of their brothers: “How come Billy did this and he didn’t get in trouble?”

Itwin, is one person. A valuable life, if you ask me. However, for one person to pass judgment to 2 Apostolic Churches is just… audacious.

The arguments between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church date from centuries and they have a significantly more complicated nature. The Orthodox don’t ignore Christian history in the manner that Itwin just did.

However, if a single Orthodox were to post exactly what Itwin posted, I would call his/her post audacious as well.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Itwin,

The 39 Articles of Faith are Anglican. However, you say to be Pentecostal. I did not know that Pentecostals held the 39 Articles of Faith.

And yes, most of the Protestantism claims are audacious.

Further, what is Protestantism but a set of various different beliefs? Anglicans, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, Baptists (In all its various sub-denominations), Non-denominationals, Methodists, Presbyterians, Reformed, Church of Christ, Lutherans, Mennonites, Quakers, Congregationals, Evangelicals, et. Al. and their sub-divisions.