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Bobby_Jim
Guest
On a very pragmatic note (as opposed to the more theological weblink above) I have noticed that when hurches use young people (like 9-10 year olds) as altar servers… both the boys and girls tend to be not very well trained, but the girls tend to be less “fidgety” than the boys. Which is exactly what you would expect for 10 year olds.
I wonder if it would be better to use teenagers or young adults as altar servers - they will probably have a better sense of what they’re doing, and maintain the proper decorum. And if the idea is to encourage boys to start considering a vocation to the priesthood, I would think teens are more likely to respond to that and make a more serious committment.
I wonder if it would be better to use teenagers or young adults as altar servers - they will probably have a better sense of what they’re doing, and maintain the proper decorum. And if the idea is to encourage boys to start considering a vocation to the priesthood, I would think teens are more likely to respond to that and make a more serious committment.
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system
Guest
Most of the servers in our parish are older - college age, even a married man. They are extremely regimented and stiff, almost “showy” in my opinion. I am disappointed that we don’t have any younger boys helping out, but what few children we do get seem to quit fairly quickly. Probably partly because the older ones give them “nothing” to do (never anything to carry, or bring to the altar, etc.). And the “show quality” probably drives them a bit batty too.I think you need a mix of older and younger boys. At first thought I don’t care about using girls one way or the other, but I do agree with the standard argument that allowing girls tends to drive the boys away.
J
jordan
Guest
I read somewhere that one of the driving forces behind the push by the USCCB to gain acceptance from the Holy See for Altar Girls was former Archbishop Rembert Weakland, who has since resigned his post due to alleged(?) sexual misconduct (homosexual liaison). Maybe someone could confirm or deny his role in the Altar Girl issue.
I read the rather lengthy link and found it interesting that the author never tried to connect the “bimillenial” tradition to the more ancient Jewish customs of service at the altar, and around the Holy of Holies. In St. Paul’s comparison of the new and the old, we gentile Christians are like “a wild olive shoot” that has been grafted onto, and “come to share in the rich root of the olive tree.” (Rom 11:17)
If you want to see how “equal rights-minded” God was about “drawing near Him for the service of the Lord’s Dwelling” you should read the Book of Numbers, Chapter 16.
I read the rather lengthy link and found it interesting that the author never tried to connect the “bimillenial” tradition to the more ancient Jewish customs of service at the altar, and around the Holy of Holies. In St. Paul’s comparison of the new and the old, we gentile Christians are like “a wild olive shoot” that has been grafted onto, and “come to share in the rich root of the olive tree.” (Rom 11:17)
If you want to see how “equal rights-minded” God was about “drawing near Him for the service of the Lord’s Dwelling” you should read the Book of Numbers, Chapter 16.
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Latin_Mass_Only
Guest
I will never understand the mindset of those bishops who allow altar girls in their dioceses. When this is allowed, vocations to the priesthood suffer. Here’s why:
Young boys look to the altar and what happens up there on Sundays. When girls (young girls and teenagers) are allowed to serve, the mystery and uniqueness for a boy is gone. If you think otherwise, then you do not understand boys!
Let me give you an example: Many years ago, as a teenager, I wanted to join the Marine Corps (I did). When I went to the recruiter’s office, I saw male Marines in Dress Blue uniform. Do you think for one minute that I would have been captivated by a female Marine? Would I have seen this as something special, only for males? Of course not. And little boys watching what goes on at the altar are no different.
Ever wonder why enrollment in Traditional seminaries such as “Our Lady of Guadalupe” in Nebraska (FSSP) is overflowing? Young boys and young men see only males at the altar wearing their “Dress Blues” i.e. beautiful pre-Vatican II vestments, not the polyester monstrosities seen today.
Young men will give their lives for a mystery, but not a question mark!
Young boys look to the altar and what happens up there on Sundays. When girls (young girls and teenagers) are allowed to serve, the mystery and uniqueness for a boy is gone. If you think otherwise, then you do not understand boys!
Let me give you an example: Many years ago, as a teenager, I wanted to join the Marine Corps (I did). When I went to the recruiter’s office, I saw male Marines in Dress Blue uniform. Do you think for one minute that I would have been captivated by a female Marine? Would I have seen this as something special, only for males? Of course not. And little boys watching what goes on at the altar are no different.
Ever wonder why enrollment in Traditional seminaries such as “Our Lady of Guadalupe” in Nebraska (FSSP) is overflowing? Young boys and young men see only males at the altar wearing their “Dress Blues” i.e. beautiful pre-Vatican II vestments, not the polyester monstrosities seen today.
Young men will give their lives for a mystery, but not a question mark!
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deogratias
Guest
As has frequently been discussed here, Phoenix is now having Tridentine Masses every Sunday. The first Sunday, prior to the Mass beginning there was a beautiful ceremony for the induction of the altar boys. (Only altar boys serve at the Tridentine Mass). This was conducted by the pastor of that parish which is an N.O. parish. But he gave a little introduction in which he hoped that by having these well trained altar boys, they would eventually lean toward vocations in the priesthood. The sincerity of the boys profession and their kissing the surplice after making their promises spoke volumes.
Now I must say they are so well trained that they have thus far been the guiding light in the four Tridentine Masses I have attended there. The priests are just “learning” this Mass or are so old they have forgotten something (like prayers after mass, when to be voce sotto, etc.) and one can see it is the boys who guide them at this point.
I would say that altar boys are such an integral part of the Tridentine Mass in so many ways and an inspiration to the vocation but also an inspiration to us in the pew in their pious and humble manner.
By the way, if anyone would like a copy of this moving induction ceremony, let me know and I’ll e-mail it to you.
Now I must say they are so well trained that they have thus far been the guiding light in the four Tridentine Masses I have attended there. The priests are just “learning” this Mass or are so old they have forgotten something (like prayers after mass, when to be voce sotto, etc.) and one can see it is the boys who guide them at this point.
I would say that altar boys are such an integral part of the Tridentine Mass in so many ways and an inspiration to the vocation but also an inspiration to us in the pew in their pious and humble manner.
By the way, if anyone would like a copy of this moving induction ceremony, let me know and I’ll e-mail it to you.
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Catholicguy
Guest
I read somewhere that one of the driving forces behind the push by the USCCB to gain acceptance from the Holy See for Altar Girls was former Archbishop Rembert Weakland, who has since resigned his post due to alleged(?) sexual misconduct (homosexual liaison). Maybe someone could confirm or deny his role in the Altar Girl issue.
There definitely is a link twixt Disobedience and queerdom. Many of our Liturgical innovators and Catholic Church wreckovators are queers.
One of the worst aspects of the Pope’s caving on altar girls is that it, unintentionally, rewarded disobedience.
ALL the disobedient AmBishops ought have been given a fortnight to obey or be excomunicated. As it is, we Catholics in America have been abandoned. We are on our own.
I live in Palm Beach Co, Florida where we had two consecutive ***** Bishops who were forced to resign once their homosexual assaults upon young men were disclosed.
Of course, they totally skated. They never faced the Law. They were hidden by other Bishops in other Dioceses.
There definitely is a link twixt Disobedience and queerdom. Many of our Liturgical innovators and Catholic Church wreckovators are queers.
One of the worst aspects of the Pope’s caving on altar girls is that it, unintentionally, rewarded disobedience.
ALL the disobedient AmBishops ought have been given a fortnight to obey or be excomunicated. As it is, we Catholics in America have been abandoned. We are on our own.
I live in Palm Beach Co, Florida where we had two consecutive ***** Bishops who were forced to resign once their homosexual assaults upon young men were disclosed.
Of course, they totally skated. They never faced the Law. They were hidden by other Bishops in other Dioceses.
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Catholicguy
Guest
Ever wonder why enrollment in Traditional seminaries such as “Our Lady of Guadalupe” in Nebraska (FSSP) is overflowing?
Amen. God provides priests. That He is providing them for Orthodox Seminaries says a lot. That most AmBishops aren’t “listening” says even more.
I pray their “silence” is rewarded with fallowness.
Amen. God provides priests. That He is providing them for Orthodox Seminaries says a lot. That most AmBishops aren’t “listening” says even more.
I pray their “silence” is rewarded with fallowness.
J
Jakub
Guest
Being a former Altar Boy from the early 60’s I believe there are places for all to serve the Lord & Church and I believe that allowing “Altar Girls” is one of many mistakes made by Rome bending to liberal idealogy.
james
james
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Stu
Guest
Latin Mass Only:
I believe the problem can also find some of its origin in the lack participation by men in both Mass and the spiritual well-being of their children. How many families do we see out there with only “Mom” binging the kids to Mass? Somewhat of a throwback to Adam’s inability to guide Eve I suppose. But to get back to the point, why should we expect the young men to take part when “Dad” doesn’t? Pitiful to say the least. I have recently made the choice to stop sitting by. My oldest son and I (not my daughters) are both becoming Altar servers. He (and perhaps others) can learn from my example though I really need to shake some dust off
. I encourage others to make similar efforts.
On a side note, Father holds hands during the Our Father. That’s going to be another issue I have to deal with.
During the mid 90’s there was a small recruiting crisis WRT military service. Only the Marines made quota time after time. They also are the only ones who didn’t abandon their message; “We’re looking for a few good men” and concern themselves with gender balance. A similar message to the young men of the church I am sure would bring similar results and ultimately more priests as well.
I believe the problem can also find some of its origin in the lack participation by men in both Mass and the spiritual well-being of their children. How many families do we see out there with only “Mom” binging the kids to Mass? Somewhat of a throwback to Adam’s inability to guide Eve I suppose. But to get back to the point, why should we expect the young men to take part when “Dad” doesn’t? Pitiful to say the least. I have recently made the choice to stop sitting by. My oldest son and I (not my daughters) are both becoming Altar servers. He (and perhaps others) can learn from my example though I really need to shake some dust off
. I encourage others to make similar efforts.On a side note, Father holds hands during the Our Father. That’s going to be another issue I have to deal with.
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Makerteacher
Guest
My two oldest sons are trained altar servers, and my younger son is learning. My husband and I have decided not to allow our daughters to learn to serve at the altar, and have discussed with them the feeling we have that this apostolate is designed to lead to priesthood, from which they are --by gender-- barred.
I admit that I was gravely disappointed when the Pope allowed girls to serve. In obedience I have accepted this practice, though I admit it still makes me uncomfortable.
Our parish has mostly boys serving. A few girls do: though at first we had many girls, that seems to be dying out as our pastor becomes increasingly orthodox and begins to challenge people from the pulpit to really embrace their Faith.
I admit that I was gravely disappointed when the Pope allowed girls to serve. In obedience I have accepted this practice, though I admit it still makes me uncomfortable.
Our parish has mostly boys serving. A few girls do: though at first we had many girls, that seems to be dying out as our pastor becomes increasingly orthodox and begins to challenge people from the pulpit to really embrace their Faith.
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misericordie
Guest
Makerteacher, that’s great!
Code:
I never say: "altar server" I only say, "altar boys", this helps conserve truth in this regard.
Someone said Weaklend came up with this. I am NOT surprised. There are other semi-catholic bishops lurking in the USA still too. There are three or four very catholic good ones.
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Catholicguy
Guest
*My two oldest sons are trained altar servers, and my younger son is learning. My husband and I have decided not to allow our daughters to learn to serve at the altar, and have discussed with them the feeling we have that this apostolate is designed to lead to priesthood, from which they are --by gender-- barred. *
I admit that I was gravely disappointed when the Pope allowed girls to serve. In obedience I have accepted this practice, though I admit it still makes me uncomfortable.
Now, that’s Catholic action. Congrats and God Bless.
]
I admit that I was gravely disappointed when the Pope allowed girls to serve. In obedience I have accepted this practice, though I admit it still makes me uncomfortable.
Now, that’s Catholic action. Congrats and God Bless.
]
D
Deacon2006
Guest
*I posted this on a similar thread earlier by I think it is worth repeating *
I know of a parish that has a mutlitude of girls serving at the altar. They do so, I presume, out of the same desire to participate in the mass as a young boys do. I really don’t think they are trying to get us used to seeing women at the altar to pave the way for female priests. However it is manifest that advocates of the female priesthood heresy hold that first you get in as altar servers then installed to acolyte, then ordained deacons and priests. Clearly the agenda of many has been to push radical change on the Church regardless of what Rome teaches.
These innocent girls, only by their presence and unknown to them, have actually chased the boys from the the altar. If you believe 11 year old boys wants to be bossed around by 14 year old girls then you really don’t understand gender dynamics. The problem is so acute that just about every recently written Vatican document about servers stresses the need to build programs to promote this vocation to boys. The Church is silent on building such programs for girls.
A deacon who once used to say that it is God’s will to have altar girls soon changed his tune when a boy who only saw girls assisting the priest came to him and asked why boys can’t serve at the altar? It was a slap in the face to have such innocence show up his views. All the modernistic ideas he and his pastor used against the faithful in their parish came home to roost. His words now would lead me to believe he is more reserved about promoting altar girls now.
The Church has powerful allies in heaven we must never be afraid to discern our understandings of Church teachings through the eyes of the Saints. Pray and ask for their intercession especially Padre Pio and Mother Thersea to help us with what The Holy Spirit has in mind for those who serve at the Divine Liturgy. God sent us Saints because He expects us to emulate their thoughts and actions as faithful Catholics.
Regardless in the next few years I will swear a life long oath to my bishop and his succesors. If he permits altar girls I will repect it, if they want to reject altar girls I will respect it. Faithful and lawful obedience to your bishop, even though you may not agree, is vital to your spiritual well-being.
Peace and God Bless
I know of a parish that has a mutlitude of girls serving at the altar. They do so, I presume, out of the same desire to participate in the mass as a young boys do. I really don’t think they are trying to get us used to seeing women at the altar to pave the way for female priests. However it is manifest that advocates of the female priesthood heresy hold that first you get in as altar servers then installed to acolyte, then ordained deacons and priests. Clearly the agenda of many has been to push radical change on the Church regardless of what Rome teaches.
These innocent girls, only by their presence and unknown to them, have actually chased the boys from the the altar. If you believe 11 year old boys wants to be bossed around by 14 year old girls then you really don’t understand gender dynamics. The problem is so acute that just about every recently written Vatican document about servers stresses the need to build programs to promote this vocation to boys. The Church is silent on building such programs for girls.
A deacon who once used to say that it is God’s will to have altar girls soon changed his tune when a boy who only saw girls assisting the priest came to him and asked why boys can’t serve at the altar? It was a slap in the face to have such innocence show up his views. All the modernistic ideas he and his pastor used against the faithful in their parish came home to roost. His words now would lead me to believe he is more reserved about promoting altar girls now.
The Church has powerful allies in heaven we must never be afraid to discern our understandings of Church teachings through the eyes of the Saints. Pray and ask for their intercession especially Padre Pio and Mother Thersea to help us with what The Holy Spirit has in mind for those who serve at the Divine Liturgy. God sent us Saints because He expects us to emulate their thoughts and actions as faithful Catholics.
Regardless in the next few years I will swear a life long oath to my bishop and his succesors. If he permits altar girls I will repect it, if they want to reject altar girls I will respect it. Faithful and lawful obedience to your bishop, even though you may not agree, is vital to your spiritual well-being.
Peace and God Bless
J
jordan
Guest
I heartily agree that obedience to the Bishop of Rome and the Magisterium of the Church is of the utmost importance. I’m afraid that individual Bishops at times lack the fidelity that is needed.
Here’s a link to the article I referred to in an earlier post. It’s rather lengthy. If you don’t want to read the whole thing, you can scroll down a little more than half way to a paragraph that begins: “A good place to start…”
culturewars.com/2002/Weakland.html
I had forgotten that the article discusses Archbishop Weakland’s role not only with bringing on altar girls, but also his impact on sacred music and the liturgy post-VII. Some shepherd, eh?
Here’s a link to the article I referred to in an earlier post. It’s rather lengthy. If you don’t want to read the whole thing, you can scroll down a little more than half way to a paragraph that begins: “A good place to start…”
culturewars.com/2002/Weakland.html
I had forgotten that the article discusses Archbishop Weakland’s role not only with bringing on altar girls, but also his impact on sacred music and the liturgy post-VII. Some shepherd, eh?
D
Deacon2006
Guest
A major problem that happens when you dwell on the infidelity of one bishop or attribute to them far more credibility then they deserve, then you are implying that John Paul, Ratzinger and Arinse are fools and easily manipulated. I think all the credible evidence is to the contrary.
God Bless
God Bless
F
Fortiterinre
Guest
And in obedience I think it is still fair to ask what role the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts should play in such a serious pastoral issue. I can be obedient and still feel like I lost on a technicality.
My understanding is that “altar boys” as we have come to know them began as a pious practice in Mediterranean countries, especially Spain, where they began to dress them in miniature cassocks and surplices. Should this be a children’s ministry still? Should we use only instituted Acolytes or at least young adults who have been confirmed?
E
Emmy
Guest
I grew up in the sixties too and girls were not allowed as Altar Girls then but I do am happy with this change though and that it is
approved.
Emmy
E
Emmy
Guest
As far as I know children who have done their Holy First Communion are allowed to serve as altar boys/girls.
Emmy
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jordan
Guest
There were, and are, bishops, and in this case an archbishop who was a power player in how VII was implemented in the US, who had their own agendas, and have not been faithful to the wishes of the the Holy Father and the Magisterium as a whole (and far from faithful to Church teachings in their personal behavior…a good sign there are problems elsewhere in their “leadership.”). Pope John Paul II, and Cardinals Ratzinger and Arinze, are wise and holy men. They need to count on the obedience of their brother bishops. The Catholic Church is too big to micromanage.
We have some very good bishops in this country. We need to all pray for their personal holiness and fidelity, and that God’s will be done through them.
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