Altar Girls

[cargau]

I think there are really only two criteria in which to choose potential servers. They are (in order of importance):

1. Are they able to serve the Mass in a highly competent manner?
2. Will their serving Mass help to foster a possible vocation as either a priest or deacon?

If they cannot accomplish #1 (with an adequate training period) they shouldn’t be serving in my opinion. Serving is about serving Jesus Christ through the man that stands in His Person on Calvary. It’s not about serving oneself.

Women cannot be ordained. Serving Mass cannot foster a vocation to the priesthood or the permanent diaconate in their case. In fact it might well lead to resentment. If is that fact, and the fact I would want everyone fostering a vocation to serve Mass filling-up all the available places that would make me preclude all females (and older males with no chance of being ordained) from serving Mass if I were a bishop.

Yes, we will hear stories about how there would not be enough servers if females did not serve. To that I say nonsense – there were plenty of servers before females served. Work harder at recruiting and training male servers. Re-build the espirit de corps that used to be so common amongst servers and everyone will have more than enough.

Serving Mass is an powerful way to foster vocations. It should be employed as such.

I think you explanation reflects the traditiional understanding of the use of altar girls.

Personally, I think girls should be permitted to serve on the altar as long as they are properly trained and serve with a sense of reverence.

We are all called to worship our Lord. Guys do not have a corner on that market. Since Vatican II, the laity has been invited to a greater participation in the liturgy. Again, no gender distinction should exist. In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus said let the children come to me. He didn’t say let the boys come to me…

In this day and age where women serve a more diverse role in society, they should be allowed to do the same at Mass. Maybe an altar girl could one day encourage her son to become a priest since proximity to the altar is not the exclusive purview of the male.

God calls all to some mission.

 

[Brendan]

But isn’t it also true that that support for vocations also should be from the family as well as the Church. If you know someone that you think would have a vocation…a kind word in that direction could do wonders. Sometimes it takes a lot of seeds…for fruit to grow. For ALL vocations. If a boy is serving at the altar but doesn’t have support from his family…that possible vocation (not every boy has a vocation to be a priest) might not sprout. So…the duty to support vocations is not only through being altar boys…or the preference towards altar boys. Notice I said preference…not solely altar boys…because I still don’t believe that a boy will refuse to serve because a girl is serving. In our parish I have seen both serving together. Usually the boy is the one directly involved with placing the chalices on the altar…which is fine with me as well. But I fail to see how altar girls are responsible for our lack of priests…

You are correct re the family, but I had addressed that earlier with Paul.

It is incumbant upon the priest to do all he can. You mentioned possibly knowing someone that you think would have a vocation. Really, that is getting to the plant after it already started budding.

The seed (the call from God), is planted at the boys Baptism. God already knows what he wants this child to do.

So that is why the vocation program to be early and large. The pastor does not know in which boys in his parish the seed has been planted. What he can do then is to bring ALL those little gardens under his care as soon as feasible so he can do what he can to make sure the ground for any call to a vocation is fertile.

By putting every boy 5-18 into the altar boy cadre, he is exposing them to service at the altar. This has a effect on the family, as it will require the family to support the altar service.

The child is retains a desire to continue to serve, as that is what all his friends are doing.

And there are fewer ‘weeds’ as all the boys in the parish support each other ( a creative use of the ‘pack mentality’ that boys have)

As far as the girls, service in the Church should support a need. The boys are there because the Vatican has stated that such service has been beneficial in vocations.

What exactly would the need be for a girl to serve if there were already sufficent boys ?

And if it is not an act of service, why is the girl there?

 

[PaulinVA]

The Vatican says it does. Do you really think that you know more than the Vatican on this subject?

Frankly, I don’t even see how it would even be possible for any of us to aquire more knowledge than the Vatican on this.

Can I ask what your authority or data is on this?

I understand that this is where I am. And, absent a study from the Vatican, I have as much data as they do.

I think that the Church engages in corporate thinking just like any organization. Everyone says that altar boys* lead* to vocations and no one disputes it because they want to conform, not go against the “company line”. Or, I could be wrong.

I am really struggling with vocations. This is a very interesting discussion when you ask yourself what a call is, what God wants for each of our lives, where free will comes in, if you have a married vocation (from birth?) did God pick your spouse at that time, too? How is a vocation “nurtured” and why does it need to be? If God places a priestly vocation on a boy, does he have an order in mind?

 

[Brendan]

I understand that this is where I am. And, absent a study from the Vatican,** I have as much data as they do**.

I would claim that statement isn’t true.

The local bishops are familiar with their seminarians, the meet regularly with each one and is familiar with the history.

The local bishops report on the status of their seminarian vocations to the Vatican. The local bishops report on this to Rome, not to us.

So yes, Rome WILL have a lot more information then you or I. All you can honestly state is that they have not shared the data upon which they made their statement to either you or I.

 

[PaulinVA]

I would claim that statement isn’t true.

The local bishops are familiar with their seminarians, the meet regularly with each one and is familiar with the history.

The local bishops report on the status of their seminarian vocations to the Vatican. The local bishops report on this to Rome, not to us.

So yes, Rome WILL have a lot more information then you or I. All you can honestly state is that they have not shared the data upon which they made their statement to either you or I.

Brother Brendan, a study to determine the affect on vocations of serving or not serving on the altar is a scientific endeavor, not an anecdotal one. Yes, vocations directors and bishops do know their seminarians.

However, to develop a causal relationship on altar serving to vocations is more complicated. How do you simply allow for boys who are predisposed to become priests? For them, there is no causal relationship - it goes the other way around.

 

[TheMc]

I think that the Church engages in corporate thinking just like any organization. Everyone says that altar boys* lead* to vocations and no one disputes it because they want to conform, not go against the “company line”. Or, I could be wrong.

Or maybe the church is guided by the holy spirit, and this is what the Lord wants the church to do at this time in history.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Or maybe the church is guided by the holy spirit, and this is what the Lord wants the church to do at this time in history.

Yes…and the Church allows for altar girls…

 

[TheMc]

Yes…and the Church allows for altar girls…

yep…and it also encourages altar boys, and says we must support them, because they promote vocations

 

[Brendan]

Yes…and the Church allows for altar girls…

As I mentioned in a previous threat, here is what the Church stated,

catholicculture.org/cultu…TOKEN=20320745

1. The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.

St. Thomas Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as the conformation of one’s will to the will of the one in authority.

So one of things that I do to insure that my will is conformed to the Church is to paraphrase Church statements in the first person (as I ), and then change my will to correspond to that.

So read the following outload to yourself and see if you agree with the Church teaching on the matter.

**I, Annabelle Marie, respect the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, I, Annabelle Marie, wish to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys should always continue. **

If there is anything in that statement that you disagree with, you are then in disagreement with the Church on the matter and therefore should conform your will ( a practice of Virtue, which is always a good thing)

 

[PaulinVA]

Or maybe the church is guided by the holy spirit, and this is what the Lord wants the church to do at this time in history.

It is unfair to use the 'nuclear option" and attempt to bolster your position with, 'Well, this is what the Holy Spirit wants".

If you suppose that Bishops (including the Bishop of Rome) always do what the Holy Spirit wants, well, then, the last forty years are sure hard to understand.

 

[paperwight66]

As I mentioned in a previous threat, here is what the Church stated,

catholicculture.org/cultu…TOKEN=20320745

St. Thomas Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as the conformation of one’s will to the will of the one in authority.

So one of things that I do to insure that my will is conformed to the Church is to paraphrase Church statements in the first person (as I ), and then change my will to correspond to that.

So read the following outload to yourself and see if you agree with the Church teaching on the matter.

**I, Annabelle Marie, respect the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, I, Annabelle Marie, wish to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys should always continue. **

If there is anything in that statement that you disagree with, you are then in disagreement with the Church on the matter and therefore should conform your will ( a practice of Virtue, which is always a good thing)

I really don’t see the problem here. The document is saying that there is a noble tradition of boys serving at the altar. Is anyone saying that no, there isn’t, and boys should not be serving?

What some of us are pointing out is that we agree with boys serving, but that doesn’t mean that it has to be boys exclusively.

You are making it into an either/or. That is to say, if we see no problem with girls serving, we are therefore disagreeing with boys serving being a noble tradition to be encouraged. That is not so. Don’t forget, those of us with daughters might very well have sons as well.

 

[Brendan]

I really don’t see the problem here. The document is saying that there is a noble tradition of boys serving at the altar. Is anyone saying that no, there isn’t, and boys should not be serving?

What some of us are pointing out is that we agree with boys serving, but that doesn’t mean that it has to be boys exclusively.

You are making it into an either/or. That is to say, if we see no problem with girls serving, we are therefore disagreeing with boys serving being a noble tradition to be encouraged. That is not so. Don’t forget, those of us with daughters might very well have sons as well.

As I had pointed out earlier,

1.since the Vatican has noted that altar service has been a “reassuring development of priestly vocations”

1. A priest does not know which boys have been called, thus it is prefferable to have as many boys serve, even preferrably ALL boys in his parish serve.
2. If a pastor is sucessful at this ( and all pastors should TRY at least), then every boy in the parish will be serving.
3. If there are already enought boys serving, there is no need for girls as additional servers.

I don’t know if you have read the entire thread, but here is where I am coming from.

In our parish, our pastor has every boy aged 5-18 serve. Our parish generally has one man from our parish enter the seminary each year. We have had 8 men Ordained from our parish in the last 10 years.

Here is a video of our altar boys in procession. This is a normal Sunday Mass.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7719738&postcount=31

Given the number of vocations that come from our altar boy program, my natural though would be that other Catholics would want to see that in their home parishes. Why would a parish NOT want to see at least one man from their parish enter the seminary each year; year after year.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Given the number of vocations that come from our altar boy program, my natural though would be that other Catholics would want to see that in their home parishes. Why would a parish NOT want to see at least one man from their parish enter the seminary each year; year after year.

One thought that comes to mind is that there simply isn’t enough room or boys to trapse 5-20 boys at every Mass. There isn’t enough room in the sanctuary for 2…they sit in front of the front pew. And then there is the logistics of it…our priest barely has a spare moment as it is. And time he has is, of course, first and foremost spent on the sacraments.

 

[TheMc]

It is unfair to use the 'nuclear option" and attempt to bolster your position with, 'Well, this is what the Holy Spirit wants".

If you suppose that Bishops (including the Bishop of Rome) always do what the Holy Spirit wants, well, then, the last forty years are sure hard to understand.

I’m not understanding what you are saying. Yes, while some bishops have not always followed the holy spirit, even sometimes wandering into heresy (not all, but some), but the vatican is a different story.

Are you saying the holy spirit does not agree with the vatican documents? Because if he does agree with the church documents, what is “unfair” about what my statement? “My position” is simply the church’s position.

Please explain to me either

1. 
   *]how it is “unfair” to say that the church’s position is the holy spirit’s position
   *]how my position is differing from the church’s position, because if it is, I will change it with all haste.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

As I mentioned in a previous threat, here is what the Church stated,

a previous threat:bigyikes: Now you are threatening

I doubt we will agree. It’s great that you go to a parish that only uses altar boys…and I’m blessed that our priest uses both. Simple enough?

Peace

 

[PA650]

As I had pointed out earlier,

1.since the Vatican has noted that altar service has been a “reassuring development of priestly vocations”

1. A priest does not know which boys have been called, thus it is prefferable to have as many boys serve, even preferrably ALL boys in his parish serve.
2. If a pastor is sucessful at this ( and all pastors should TRY at least), then every boy in the parish will be serving.
3. If there are already enought boys serving, there is no need for girls as additional servers.

I don’t know if you have read the entire thread, but here is where I am coming from.

In our parish, our pastor has every boy aged 5-18 serve. Our parish generally has one man from our parish enter the seminary each year. We have had 8 men Ordained from our parish in the last 10 years.

Here is a video of our altar boys in procession. This is a normal Sunday Mass.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7719738&postcount=31

Given the number of vocations that come from our altar boy program, my natural though would be that other Catholics would want to see that in their home parishes. Why would a parish NOT want to see at least one man from their parish enter the seminary each year; year after year.

Your parish’s practice regarding altar boys reminds me of St. Nicholas of Chardonnet in Paris:
youtube.com/watch?v=xK8jPgJeGuA

I wish such a practice was more widespread.

 

[PaulinVA]

Please explain to me either

1. 
   *]how it is “unfair” to say that the church’s position is the holy spirit’s position
   *]how my position is differing from the church’s position, because if it is, I will change it with all haste.

1. 
   Where is there room for discussion if you say that your position is the Church’s position and the Church’s position is the Holy Spirit’s position?
   
   You might feel that you are really, really, right and God is on you side, but when you actually come out and say that, you are, whether on purpose or not, equating holding a view other than yours as disagreeing with God. Hard to have an internet forum discussion under those terms.

 

[TheMc]

Where is there room for discussion if you say that your position is the Church’s position and the Church’s position is the Holy Spirit’s position?

You might feel that you are really, really, right and God is on you side, but when you actually come out and say that, you are, whether on purpose or not, equating holding a view other than yours as disagreeing with God. Hard to have an internet forum discussion under those terms.

I’m still not sure what you are saying. All I am saying is that in this matter is that my stance is the church’s stance. And the church’s stance is the holy spirit’s stance, no?
Here’s my stance (which also happens to be very similar to a letter from the vatican…)

I, TheMC, respect the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, I, TheMc, wish to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys should always continue.

Here’s another way to say it:

• Boys are not to be excluded from serving
• Any authority from celebrant to pope may ban altar girls throughout his juristriction
• No priest may ever be forced to use female servers
• No one has a right to serve at the altar
• It is “always appropriate” to continue the “noble tradition” of having males serve. No such thing has been said about altar girls.
• It is important that people know that this is not the norm, and that no one has a right to serve at the altar.
• At the holy father’s Masses, which are models for the world, only altar boys are used.
• THE RIGHT TO USE ALTAR GIRLS MAY CHANGE AT ANY TIME
• Summed up: Yes, females can serve, but it is quite obvious that boys are still preferred by the church.

I don’t see what issue you have with me adopting the church’s position. Isn’t that always a good thing?

 

[Brendan]

I doubt we will agree. It’s great that you go to a parish that only uses altar boys…and I’m blessed that our priest uses both. Simple enough?

Peace

The important thing is that we agree with the Church. We if do, then we agree. Can you go back to that hightlighted text from my previous post.

Would you be willing to state that in public?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

The important thing is that we agree with the Church. We if do, then we agree. Can you go back to that hightlighted text from my previous post.

Would you be willing to state that in public?

Nope…because I don’t agree it necessarily leads to vocations. Do I respect the right of Bishops and priests to only use altar boys if that is what they wish…yes. Do I respect the right of priests and Bishops to use altar girls is they wish…yes. Do I understand that altar boys are preferred…yes. That is what the Church has said. I think you threw more into that bolded paragraph then what the Church has said…IMHO.