Altar in the center of the church?

[buffalo]

Inside the Vatican Interview: What Will be the Consequences of the Synod?

VATICAN CITY, November 12, 2005 – Cardinal Francis Arinze,
from the interview:

ITV: Following on from that, Pope Benedict has written extensively about the problems in the modern liturgy. In the light of both your concerns, are we likely to see tougher action to stop these abuses and errors, outlined in Redemptionis Sacramentum?

                 **ARINZE:** Many people would want it, Obviously, there are some major areas the Holy Father decides. But there are areas which are already clear in the liturgical books where all you need is to consult a bishop or a priest. He knows what to do.

So, if only people would be more faithful to what has been laid down not by people who just like to make laws for other people, but what follows from what we believe. Lex orandi, Lex credendi. It is our faith that directs our prayer life, and if we genuflect in front of the tabernacle it is because we believe that Jesus is there, and is God.

If at Mass, we are self-controlled, we are disciplined, we don’t talk in the Church and don’t converse as if we were in a football stadium, it is because of what we believe. Therefore, the most important area is faith and fidelity to that faith, and a faithful reading of the original texts, and their faithful translations, so that people celebrate knowing that the liturgy is the public prayer of the Church.

It is not the property of one individual, therefore one individual does not tinker with it, but makes effort to celebrate it as Holy Mother Church wants. When that happens, the people are happy, they feel nourished. Their faith grows, their faith is strengthened. They go home happy and willing to come back next Sunday.

But when that does not happen, you make quite a problem for those who come to Mass. If the people can say: “Our parish priest who said Mass last Sunday did funny things that are not according to any liturgical book that we know”, that is rather serious.

 

[buffalo]

**cont’d

ITV: **In Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II’s Decree on the Liturgy), it indicated at Mass, pride of place must be given to Gregorian chant. But the reality is that few Catholics under the age of 50 would ever have heard a Te Deum sung in their parish church. Liturgical music today is largely guitars and tambourines, etc. Is this an appropriate form of musical expression for divine worship?

                  **ARINZE:** For music in the liturgy, we should start by saying that Gregorian music is the Church's precious heritage. It should stay. It should not be banished. **If therefore in a particular diocese or country, no one hears Gregorian music anymore, then somebody has made a mistake somewhere.**

But, the Church is not saying that everything should be Gregorian music. There is room for music which respects that language, that culture, that people. There is room for that too, and the present books say that is a matter for the Bishops Conference, because it generally goes beyond the boundaries of one diocese.

The ideal thing is that the bishops would have a Liturgical Music Commission which looks at the wording and the music of the hymns. And when the commission is satisfied, judgment is brought to the bishops for approval, in the name of the rest of the conference.

But not individuals just composing anything and singing it in church. This is not right at all. No matter how talented the individual is. That brings us to the question of the instrument to be used. The local church should be conscious that church worship is not really the same as what we sing in a bar, or what we sing in a convention for youth. Therefore it should influence the type of instrument used, the type of music used.

I will not now pronounce and say never guitar. That would be rather severe. But much of guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass. Yet, it is possible to think of some guitar music that would be suitable, not as the ordinary one we get every time, the visit of a special group, etc.

The judgment would be left to the bishops of the area. It is wiser that way. Also, because there are other instruments in many countries which are not used in Italy or in Ireland, for instance.

But music should nourish faith, burst from our faith and should lead back to the faith. It should be a prayer. Entertainment is quite another matter. We have the parish hall for that, and the theater. People don’t come to Mass in order to be entertained. They come to Mass to adore God, to thank him, to ask pardon for sins, and to ask for other things that they need. Those are the reasons for Mass. **When they want entertainment, they know where to go. Parish hall, theater, presuming that their entertainment is acceptable from a moral theological point of view.

more…
**

 

[puzzleannie]

a good way to spot a bad catechist is to note when he also teaches inaccuracies and falsehoods in other areas not related directly to doctrine, such as history, politics, or science. the poster who called this guy a dabbler is correct, he sees something on TLC, Discovery or the History channel and assumes it is gospel truth, and that is the level of his education on any topic.

for the record, the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak Michigan, built in 1928, is “in the round” with the altar in the center of a beautiful octagonal shaped sanctuary. Along the outer walls are shrines to various saints. Still one of the most beautiful churches I have ever seen.

 

[MrS]

puzzleannie:

for the record, the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak Michigan, built in 1928, is “in the round” with the altar in the center of a beautiful octagonal shaped sanctuary. Along the outer walls are shrines to various saints. Still one of the most beautiful churches I have ever seen.

Yes it is… but in 1928 12Mile & Woodward was **way **out in the country, and it was designed as a shrine… who would have known it would become a full parish with school and more…

 

[AWall]

cont’d

**ITV: **In Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II’s Decree on the Liturgy), it indicated at Mass, pride of place must be given to Gregorian chant. But the reality is that few Catholics under the age of 50 would ever have heard a Te Deum sung in their parish church. Liturgical music today is largely guitars and tambourines, etc. Is this an appropriate form of musical expression for divine worship?

Yes, last night at choir practice the director said, “we really should have a tambourine with this” song we were practicing. I really hope that she was joking.

Practice 1: rainstick. Practice 2: tambourine. I don’t think I care for a third.

Thank you all for the information you’ve provided me in this thread. I really appreciate it and am still reading through some of the sites.

Andrea

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**General Notice:

Regarding quoted texts/materials/references to the threads:

Please review Forum rules and the help sticky,
Helpful Hints on Posting:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=72808
Guidelines on posting articles to Catholic Answers Forums
**

 

[davy39]

AWall:

Hi. We had RCIA last night and the presentation left me with a couple of questions. The speaker gave a lecture on church history, which included some of the councils, including the 1st Lateran council. (He spoke about the Templars and how the pope made them his own army and gave himself the right to start Crusades and how he was BAD!) Of course he talked about Vatican II and how wonderful all the changes have been and now they are trying to have all the new churches put the altar in the center of the room and have people all around it in a circle which will make it easier for the 100% participation by all the people, called for by the council. Is this true? The only thing I’ve been able to find is that the altar was to be pulled away from the wall allowing the priest to face the people. He taught that the “circle” was the way they did it in the first 3 centuries. I can’t seem to find that anywhere yet.

He also said that Catholics are encouraged (yes, he used that word) to go to other churches. He did say that the Eucharist is the most important part of the Catholic faith (although no one has mentioned the word transubstantiation yet) so you should get to church to take it, but you’re also encouraged to go to other churches if you want. He didn’t even tell the class that as a Catholic you are not to take communion in other churches… Somehow I don’t think it’s true that Catholics are encouraged to attend other services, but I want to make sure.

There of course were some more gems, but I’d really appreciate help with these things.

Thanks!

Andrea

I’ve been a Catholic all my life, and I’ve never heard of anybody encouraged to attend other churches . In fact, when I was much younger I believe we were taught not to attend or participate in other church services, and that included weddings. I don’t think that was ever changed. In our diocese, churches that were undergoing renovation were encouraged to bring the altar out and seat the people in sort of a letter “C” in front and on each side, if the design of the church allowed it. Our local church was renovated that way, and I sort of like it. But I’ve never seen one where you set in a complete circle.

 

[Catholic2003]

davy39:

In fact, when I was much younger I believe we were taught not to attend or participate in other church services, and that included weddings. I don’t think that was ever changed.

It did indeed change. The 1917 Code of Canon Law that contained the rules prohibiting attendance at Protestant services was replaced with the current 1983 Code of Canon Law, which contains no such prohibitions.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

AWall:

Hi. We had RCIA last night and the presentation left me with a couple of questions. The speaker gave a lecture on church history, which included some of the councils, including the 1st Lateran council. (He spoke about the Templars and how the pope made them his own army and gave himself the right to start Crusades and how he was BAD!) Of course he talked about Vatican II and how wonderful all the changes have been and now they are trying to have all the new churches put the altar in the center of the room and have people all around it in a circle which will make it easier for the 100% participation by all the people, called for by the council. Is this true? The only thing I’ve been able to find is that the altar was to be pulled away from the wall allowing the priest to face the people. He taught that the “circle” was the way they did it in the first 3 centuries. I can’t seem to find that anywhere yet.

He also said that Catholics are encouraged (yes, he used that word) to go to other churches. He did say that the Eucharist is the most important part of the Catholic faith (although no one has mentioned the word transubstantiation yet) so you should get to church to take it, but you’re also encouraged to go to other churches if you want. He didn’t even tell the class that as a Catholic you are not to take communion in other churches… Somehow I don’t think it’s true that Catholics are encouraged to attend other services, but I want to make sure.

There of course were some more gems, but I’d really appreciate help with these things.

Thanks!

Andrea

Great…now if you were not born a cradle Catholic into a duly liberalistic family which supports the “spirit”, not the letter, of the Council, they’ll convert you in RCIA.

This is a load of rubbish not deserving rebuttal.

However, there were several general arguments which are used a lot by liberals which I must address:

1. The “first three centuries” argument. This is trying to capitalise on the ignorance of the average Catholic. The records of those centuries, of the Church Persecuted, are scarce, and you can fairly well put whatever you like there (save for doctrine, which the Church Fathers defined quite clearly). In addition, to use this argument is to suggest that the Church somehow veered from the “true path” at some point, which is just as heretical as declaring Novus Ordo Masses invalid.
2. The council actually called for people to ‘participate in singing the chant’ (not exact quote) and for vernacular to be used in the portions of the Mass which change (i.e. the reading). The Canon could easily remain in Latin, together with most of the rest of the Mass. In fact, to veer from the Latin in an every growing Church is to ignore the obvious route by which to unite it.
3. Their fallback is always the Eucharist. They seem to think that you are O.K. as long as you have the Eucharist, while they completely ignore the reverence you show for it, saying that it should be personal.
4. The “evil Crusader Popes” is another way for them to try to discredit the Old Church and True Church of the Council, and pretend that their progressivist Church is really quite enlightened.

BTW: I thought that all that was proclaimed was that the altar could be pulled away from the wall…I was under the impression that High Altars were still permitted. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[davy39]

Catholic2003:

It did indeed change. The 1917 Code of Canon Law that contained the rules prohibiting attendance at Protestant services was replaced with the current 1983 Code of Canon Law, which contains no such prohibitions.

Ahhh, so much for progress!