altar servers?

[OhMalley]

I am aware of that…and I apologize for not making myself clear…the Church has removed that…

Let’s stop right there. The Church has very formally removed the requirement via a change in Canon Law. It follows that it could not be a biblical requirement else the Church could not have made such a change. Your comments about St. Paul (in this context) are therefore moot…

it has also severely lightened its fast/abstinence requirements…along with other things…however, those practices were never abograted…

You are mistaken in at least the case of the head covering and the longer fasts. The 1983 CofC most certainly aborgated the 1917 revision. Women are no longer required to cover their heads and the official fast is one hour whether you like it or not.

they were just lifted as requirements…the faithful CAN STILL practice them if they so wish…so it becomes a matter of just doing the bare minimums…why would one want to do just the bare minimums?

Careful - your thinking is faulty. You’re trying to take the place of the Church and you cannot. A fast from midnight-on is no better than a 1 hour fast. Read that last sentance again for you had better begin to understand that your personal choice is not inherently “better” than what the Church actually requires. The longer fast might help you personally in some way but it is not intrinsically “better.” Many people make the mistake you are making. As far as being “abrogated” that means absolutely nothing here. You are more than free to fast 72 hours or longer before each Mass. The Church has set no limit that I am aware of.

That breeds mediocrity… and that goes along with guys that wear shorts to mass…or blue jeans with t-shirt…Dress appropriately…I mean, you are in the presence of God. Would you eat at Ruth’s Chris steak house in denim shorts and an LSU t-shirt? I think not…Start showing some respect for the Real Presence!!! Therefore, while not required, it sure would be very nice to see men dressed appropriately and women dressed appropriately and wearing mantillas or some other type of head covering…and no tacky piercings, or hair styles, etc…it is a respect issue…but then again, you and the other Catholics like you…if you want to do the bare minimums, that is your perogative.

*Prove it! * You are bouncing around from topic to topic as people like you are apt to do but you had better stop for a moment and think. Just who made you the arbiter of what are the “bare minimums?” Do you really think you somehow know better than the Church?

Do you honestly believe you are wiser than the Church? Does your apparent love of a longer fast and women covering their heads make the practices somehow “better” than what the Church actually requires? A resounding NO to that – no matter what you might think.

 

[Godlovesus]

Ok, let me just interject and say this… I have been an alter server for over 6 years. At our parish there has never been a girl alter server. There are still parishes out there that have not yet grasped the concept of both sex alter servers. I think that answers your question. So all you would have to do is find a parish like mine hope that helps!

 

[Alphonse]

It has also been said that there would never be a black man as president of the United States. And now we have one - President Barack Obama.

No NO NO…you are wrong! Just because our culture has changed and feminism has spread and political correctness has spread does not mean the Church was wrong for 1900+ years…Women will never be ordained as Priest…and it angers me to see “Catholics” advocating that…or “Catholics” advocating the Church catch up with the times…The Catholic Church is Truth…it is perfect…it is the individuals within it that are imperfect…maybe we should start conforming to Christ and the teachings of The Church…instead of advocating changes that can not be made to our beliefs and doctrine and insisting that The Church changes to meet our likes and wants…and if you can’t survive in this 21st century as a Catholic…because our culture has been dumbed down and there is no concept of right and wrong and no concept of sin anymore…then it is best…and I say this with the most sincere charity…that you possibly go to one of the protestant Churches that will allow you to do those things…because modernism is a scourge…it is a cancer that needs to be incised from our Church…and advocating women priests and other things like that is counterproductive…and will only confuse less informed Catholics who strive for and want to know the truth…yet they have nuns who no longer wear their habits and talk about women’s ordination…that is confusing…and if you think I am being “un-Catholic” or uncharitable…then refer back to the spiritual works of mercy:

The spiritual works of mercy are:

**•To instruct the ignorant;
•To counsel the doubtful;
•To admonish sinners; **
•To bear wrongs patiently;
•To forgive offences willingly;
•To comfort the afflicted;
•To pray for the living and the dead.

There seems a to be a lot more counselling and instructing going on these days because there are a lot of people walking around out there calling themselves Catholics and they haven’t the slightest clue as to why things are the way they are in The Church…and instead of trying to understand the reasoning behind them, they decide to go on a crusade to change The CHurch…well this is one Catholic who has made it his life’s mission to put an end to it…not on my watch. It is my personal mission to eradicate modernism from our wonderful Church.

 

[Alphonse]

I can well remember when sister announced the names of the boys who would become altar boys, and the reaction of many of the girls: “Not fair”, “No way”, “You just like the boys”, “I can do that just as well”, “This is just plain wrong” etc, and this, gentle reders was 1964.

At one point women were not educated because it was thought that their brains would burst.

Please note that I am not advocating a postion, against, or in favor, of women’s ordination, but we should prepare ourselves for the future. Things change, even the church. And, as I noted in response to another post, we thought that there would never be a black president of the United States, and that “they” didn’t have the right material. Now we have President Barack Obama.

QUOTE=Sr Sally;5362452]I agree that the real path to a vocation is prayer and discernment. I too have seen some boys who were perfectly happy to be altar servers but in no way called to be priests!

Until a few years back the Arlington diocese did forbid girls from serving at the altar. They are now allowed at the discretion of the pastor. Our parish continues to just allow boys to serve.

This is very true. I do not know that serving will make any girl a better catechist when she’s married with a family, but truly the reverance and love of God should carry on into adulthood just as it does for boys.

It is very true that God revealed himself first to a woman at the resurrection and that the Church has always held women in high esteem, from the Mother of God through all the amazing women Saints in time. I do not know that gender parity in liturgical roles is of any importance in girls and women realizing the Church’s love and esteem though.

I do not see how this would ever happen. Christ’s direction and the apostolic reord are very clear that women are not of the ‘material’ required to be a priest. Again, the Church’s love and esteem for women is in no way diminished by this.

 

[Spiritoftruth]

The altar servers at my parish are all boys at the request of our Pastor.

I can only say, were it not for the girls, we would have few servers, and at times none…

 

[Alphonse]

We should be careful here - there is more to being a priet than simply saying Mass.

Many boys were seduced by this idea, entered minor seminaries, only to discover years alter that being a priest was overwhelming.

Being a priest is a vocartion, not a 9-5 job, with benefits.

It requires judgement, maturity, a sound education, wisdom, and financial and administrative abilities.

In the halcyon days of the American church, of course, it was the sisters that held the whole edifice together: teaching, nursing, clerical, etc. The parochial system of those days would have never succeeded without the nuns.

But, women’s choices were also severely limited - nursing, and secretarial, and teaching, certainly, but it paid so poorly that most women could not seek it as a career. Indeed, the fact of a woman even having a career outside of motherhood was suspect.

For many young catholic girls, the convent opened up educational and career opportunities they never would have had in the secular world. And, for many of their families, they could be assured that their daughters would be fed, clothed, and educated, something, especially, in large famiiles that could not always be provided.

Also remember that sisters play different roles in the church today - working with the apostolate as teachers, counsleors, parish assitants, etc - but this is TOTALLY different than cloisterd life - a gift for those that can do it, a trial for those that cannot. Living behind a high gate or wall, and praying the divine office requires a different sort of woman.

To me a big part of it has to do with the boys seeing this important aspect of the priesthood up close. They also have an opportunity to get to know the priests better and see some of the responsibilities of being a priest.

Girls who may have a vocation to sisterhood would ideally have a similar opportunity to get to know the sisters/nuns and see there work. This used to be the case when Catholic schools were staffed by sisters, when many smaller cities and towns still had Catholic hospitals, and there were more convents of cloistered nuns.

Certainly serving at the altar can give a girl a sense of reverance about the Mass and a chance to serve their parish, however, that is not the work that they will be doing as a sister.

We are fortunate in our parish to have a sister in the CCD office, and in our diocese we have 2 covents of cloistered nuns (different orders) and many other sisters helping in other parishes and even staffing several of our schools (not completely, but they are there). It is a great blessing for all the girls in our diocese and the vocations director runs a special program for girls/young women called Fiat. They even schedule “nun runs” when the girls get to meet the sisters and visit the cloistered convents.

 

[Sparki777]

I can only say, were it not for the girls, we would have few servers, and at times none…

 

[michaeldaniels]

Electing a minority to office in a democratic nation and changing something that has been emphatically stated can never happen and is not even a remote possibility of happening within The Catholic Church (not a democracy) are not even close to the same thing…The Church is not a democracy…and to quote our wonderful Pontiff Benedict XVI “Truth is not determined by a majority vote”

It has also been said that there would never be a black man as president of the United States. And now we have one - President Barack Obama.

 

[OhMalley]

…Please note that I am not advocating a postion, against, or in favor, of women’s ordination, but we should prepare ourselves for the future. Things change, even the church. And, as I noted in response to another post, we thought that there would never be a black president of the United States, and that “they” didn’t have the right material. Now we have President Barack Obama…

I guess you truly don’t get it and that’s a shame. Your analogy of a black president is ridiculous and I am sorry you don’t understand that. A better analogy would be for a man to become pregnant. It’s just going to happen – it’s impossible and that’s just not something that’s going to change.

 

[OhMalley]

I can only say, were it not for the girls, we would have few servers, and at times none…

 

[BrokenFortress]

Well, that happens. When altar service becomes “a girl thing,” you’re not going to get many boys to do it.

Boys want to grow up to be men. Give them manly occupations, and they thrive. Give them “unisex” occupations, and they can take it or leave it. Give them what they perceive to be womanly occupations – good luck finding boys to sign up for that one.

Now that is just sad. I think it’s the responsibility of the parents to show their young boys that there is nothing wrong with occupations that women can do too. This is why you get young boys who turn into men and feel as though they’re better than women. Sorry, seen that too many times that it makes me sick.
Serving at the altar is not about who else is doing it. It’s about serving the Lord. If you have a young boy who says he doesn’t want to be an altar server because the girls are doing it, that boy seriously needs to be talked to about what Mass is about.

 

[ConcernedApathy]

Spiritoftruth;5365224:

Well, that happens. When altar service becomes “a girl thing,” you’re not going to get many boys to do it.

Boys want to grow up to be men. Give them manly occupations, and they thrive. Give them “unisex” occupations, and they can take it or leave it. Give them what they perceive to be womanly occupations – good luck finding boys to sign up for that one.

Now that’s just plain crazy. There is only one “womanly occupation” and that’s giving birth. If a boy thinks that by working along side a girl, sharing a chore or job with a girl or doing anything in anyway unisex will make him spontaneously sprout a vagina then his parents need to correct that archaic belief. If they don’t correct it, they should be ashamed.

 

[cdanison]

Ours is a very similar parish. We have only altar boys and they range in age from as young as 6 to 18+. Most (almost all) of the boys in the parish are altar boys, and each altar boy serves at every Mass they attend (no schedule). So for the Sunday AM Masses we have about 40 boys serving.

Here is a link to a video of a typical Sunday Mass

cid-d48dbdc01a7e8a7d.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Altar%20Boys%20-sm.wmv (choose download)

And you are right about the vocations. We have about 900 families in our parish. We had 7 men in the seminary, but two were just ordained, so that drops us down to just 5.

Including the two just ordained, we have had 12 men ordained from our parish in the last 10 years.

So that is an average of a little over 1 a year.

And it really comes from our altar boy program. The boys grow up serving God at his altar and they therefore have little difficulty vowing to spend the remainder of their lives doing so.

Congratlations - those are great satistics. The video is beautiful. How lucky you all are.

We have both boys and girls and appreciate their service to our church. They are normally CCD students. I have heard no complaints.

Connie

 

[Sr_Sally]

I can only say, were it not for the girls, we would have few servers, and at times none…

 

[michaeldaniels]

Women do not belong on the altar and they will never be priest…Is that archaic? Should I be ashamed of myself for saying that?

Sparki777;5365275:

Now that’s just plain crazy. There is only one “womanly occupation” and that’s giving birth. If a boy thinks that by working along side a girl, sharing a chore or job with a girl or doing anything in anyway unisex will make him spontaneously sprout a vagina then his parents need to correct that archaic belief. If they don’t correct it, they should be ashamed.

 

[keepitreal]

The minor orders have been abolished in the Latin Rite of the Church.

Instituted acolytes and lectors are laymen.

Altar servers were typically called “altar boys” in years past.

Nothing “extraordinary” about altar servers.

The minor orders are not “abolished” in the Traditional Rite (Extraordinary). The minor orders (tonsure, subdeacon, etc.) are received by many several times a year in traditional seminaries throughout the world.

 

[John_Lilburne]

I honestly have to ask – why did you post what you did? … When it comes to serving at the altar instituted acolytes don’t always take precidence over altar servers nor are they “ordinary” when servers are “extraordinary.”
…

Then what are you saying? Instituted acolytes have no precedence over altar servers?

Then why does the GIRM have this?
“100. In the absence of an instituted acolyte, lay ministers may be deputed to serve at the altar
and assist the priest and the deacon;”

If there are 20 priests at a Mass, and only 10 are needed to distribute communion, it would be wrong to use lay people to do this.
If there are 20 instituted acolytes at a Mass, and only 10 are needed to do the job, it would be wrong to use other lay people to do this.
(In both cases I am assuming the proper ministers are ready and able to do the job.)

Ministeria Quaedam is at ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6MINORS.HTM and has in n. 6, about the instituted acolyte:
" … He may also, to the extent needed, take care of instructing other faithful who on a temporary basis are appointed to assist the priest or deacon in liturgical celebrations by carrying the missal, cross, candles, etc., or by performing other such duties. …".

So yes, it can happen. An instituted acolyte can be doing the ministry with those without institution. But it is the proper role of the instituted acolyte. Those without institution do the role because of a shortage, on a temporary basis.

What would be the point of having a special ceremony, appointing someone a particular ministry, if it then gives no precedence in doing that role?

 

[OhMalley]

Sparki777;5365275:

Now that’s just plain crazy. There is only one “womanly occupation” and that’s giving birth. If a boy thinks that by working along side a girl, sharing a chore or job with a girl or doing anything in anyway unisex will make him spontaneously sprout a vagina then his parents need to correct that archaic belief. If they don’t correct it, they should be ashamed.

???

If you want to make something unappealing to most boys make it something that includes/appeals to girls. The dynamics shift greatly when it goes from a “knights and pages of the altar” setting to an “altar server setting” – and not for the best.

 

[OhMalley]

Then what are you saying? Instituted acolytes have no precedence over altar servers?

First I am saying that we were talking about serving at the altar, not distributing communion. You had that mixed-up.

Second comparing an (instituted or not) EMHC to a priest IS NOT like comparing an altar server to an instituted acolyte. Altar servers ARE NOT “extraordinary acolytes.”

That is what I am saying.

 

[OhMalley]

OhMalley;5343297:

The minor orders have been abolished in the Latin Rite of the Church.

Instituted acolytes and lectors are laymen.

Altar servers were typically called “altar boys” in years past.

Nothing “extraordinary” about altar servers.

The minor orders are not “abolished” in the Traditional Rite (Extraordinary). The minor orders (tonsure, subdeacon, etc.) are received by many several times a year in traditional seminaries throughout the world.

You are wrong. The minor orders were most certainly supressed within the Latin Rite. While there is no such thing as a “Traditional Rite” in the Catholic Church (the EF Mass is part of the Latin Rite) some societies/seminaries have received special permission to make use of the minor orders.