G
Gethsemane
Guest
Yes, yes! I quite agree with you.
And with the Cardinal.
- Status
And with the Cardinal.
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Excuse me but that is your opinion…and not an abuse. When you have three Masses on Sunday…and one priest…you kind of need some EMHC’s. So it is not an abuse.
Also…just a clarification…not necessarily when everyone else receives. The priest receives first…ALWAYS. But then (and only then) the EMHC’s receive and then disburse out.
S
severus68
Guest
So it is clear that you think you have the right to correct the parish priest. With respect, you appear to be coming into the Church waiting to correct the wrongs within as you perceive them. You could have just asked simply “Are female altar servers allowed?” I still struggle with my spirituality and I was born and bred a Catholic.
Z
Zosimus41
Guest
I go to Latin Rite THE PEWS ARE FULL The priest has no problem no help the line goes
really quick.
And yes it has got out of hand.
Can. 212 §3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.
Fidei custos (1969)
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/EXTRMIN.HTM
In the heady days of the late 1960s, when the spirit of unbridled enthusiasm generated by Sacrosanctum Concilium was leading the Holy See to consider the re-establishment of many long-dormant liturgical practices and ministries, we find what is (to my knowledge) the first general legislation on our topic. After noting that those who are charged with the pastoral care of the faithful “may for the good of their subjects ask the Congregation … to permit suitable persons to administer communion to themselves and to the faithful” (the Congregation in question was the Congregation for Discipline of the Sacraments), Fidei custos goes on to specify the exact parameters which justify a request for the granting of this permission:
whenever a minister indicated in can. 845 [1917] is unavailable1;
whenever the usual minister is unable to administer communion without difficulty because of poor health, advanced age, or the demands of the pastoral ministry;
whenever the number of faithful wishing to receive communion is so great that the celebration of Mass would be unduly long.
These reasons, especially the italicized phrase, are to be particularly noted, since as we shall see they are repeated almost verbatim in all the succeeding documents that address the topic, and are taken as the only possible reasons for the legitimate use of such ministers.
Immensae caritatis (1973)
As this very brief section of Fidei custos had not proved sufficient to settle all doubts and questions that were stirring in regard to the permissibility of laymen distributing Holy Communion, the same Congregation four years later issued Immensae caritatis, which places this topic first among the matters it considers. Here we get a more detailed picture:
There are various circumstances in which a lack of sufficient ministers for the distribution
of Holy Communion can occur:
- during Mass, because of the size of the congregation or a particular difficulty in which a
celebrant finds himself - outside of Mass, when it is difficult because of distance to take the sacred species,
especially in the Viaticum, to the sick in danger of death, or when the very number of
the sick, especially in hospitals and similar institutions, requires many ministers.
- Local ordinaries have the faculty to permit a suitable person individually chosen as an
extraordinary minister for a specific occasion or for a time or, in the case of necessity,
in some permanent way, either to give the Eucharist to himself or to other faithful and to
take it to the sick who are confined to their homes. This faculty may be used whenever:
a. there is no priest, deacon, or acolyte;
b. these are prevented from administering Holy Communion because of another
pastoral ministry or because of ill health or advanced age;
c. the number of faithful requesting Holy Communion is such that the celebration of
Mass or the distribution of the Eucharist outside of Mass would be unduly
prolonged. - Local ordinaries also have the faculty to permit individual priests exercising their sacred
office to appoint a suitable person who in cases of genuine necessity would distribute
Holy Communion for a specific occasion. …Since these faculties are granted only for
the spiritual good of the faithful and for cases of genuine necessity, priests are to
remember that they are not thereby excused from the task of distributing the Eucharist
to the faithful who legitimately request it, and especially from taking and giving it to the
sick.
Holy Communion and Worship of the Eucharist (1973)
Issued in the same year by the Congregation of Divine Worship, this instruction repeats the teaching of Immensae caritatis in slightly different words.
It is primarily the function of priests and deacons to distribute Holy Communion to the faithful who seek it. It is eminently fitting, therefore, that they should devote a reasonable part of their time, in keeping with the needs of the faithful, to this exercise of their ministry. Acolytes duly appointed, moreover, may, as extraordinary ministers, distribute Holy Communion when no priest or deacon is available, when neither priest or deacon is able to distribute it on account of ill health or advanced age, or because of the pressure of other pastoral duties. Acolytes may similarly distribute Holy Communion when the number of the faithful approaching the altar is so large that the celebration of Mass or other sacred ceremony would be unduly prolonged. The local ordinary may give to other extraordinary ministers the faculty to distribute Holy Communion whenever this seems necessary for the pastoral good of the faithful, and when no priest, deacon, or acolyte is available.
Z
Zosimus41
Guest
The problem is my friend the spirit of the world or what may be called the “smoke of satan”Yes, yes! I quite agree with you.
has entered the church.
We live in a society of equal rights, pollitically correctness, Im ok your ok, live and let live. This has crept in the church.
The church is divided traditionalist (folks who want the church to remain traditional i.e. catholic)
modernist (those who want the church views to mirror world views)
Soon we will all be holding hands and singing amazing grace…Oh wait a minute we already do
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
catholicknight.blogspot.com/2010/10/archbishop-condemns-schismatic-american.html
THE CATHOLIC KNIGHT: The U.S. Catholic Church is in immediate peril! There is a significant threat of schism looming in Detroit. For some time now ‘The Catholic Knight’ blog has warned of a significant threat to Church unity in the United States. Now the Archbishop of Detroit has also seen the threat and acted accordingly.
The threat comes from Progressive Modernists within the U.S. Catholic Church. These are “Catholics” who view the Second Vatican Council as some kind of watershed event, a rupture with historic Catholicism, and a license to go forward with various “reforms” and innovations all in the name of the “Spirit of Vatican II.” These people, both clergy and laity, have ruled over various parishes and dioceses in the United States
like dictators. They’ve suppressed those who clamored for a return to tradition and promoted those who abused the liturgy and twisted Church doctrine. Their height of power was in the decades immediately following the Second Vatican Council (1970s - 1990s). Now that their influence is beginning to wane under the pontificate of Benedict XVI, these liberal dissenters of the historic Church have seen the writing on the wall. They know their days are numbered, and so in a desperate attempt to preserve what they have worked so long for, and re-energize a new generation with their heretical zeal, these people are now attempting to create a rival council to the pope and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. It’s called the American Catholic Council (or ACC), and it’s first meeting is scheduled for June 10-12 of 2011 at the Detroit Convention Center and Detroit Marriott Renaissance Center.
In response, Archbishop Allen H. Vigneron has issued the following statement condemning the American Catholic Council. Here are the highlights…
(Archdiocese of Detroit) - …Although their stated purpose is to "respond to the Spirit of Vatican II by summoning the Baptized together to demonstrate our re-commitment and the documents issued by the American Catholic Council offer some valid aspirations for the Church, in fact, the goals proposed are largely in opposition to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the Holy Spirit, which inspired the Council.
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
You go too far! Seriously! Those who see that Mother Church has spoken on some things and trust in her…now we are calling evil good? I can’t even take you seriously when you comment like that!The problem is my friend the spirit of the world or what may be called the “smoke of satan”
has entered the church.
We live in a society of equal rights, pollitically correctness, Im ok your ok, live and let live. This has crept in the church.
The church is divided traditionalist (folks who want the church to remain traditional i.e. catholic)
modernist (those who want the church views to mirror world views)
Soon we will all be holding hands and singing amazing grace…Oh wait a minute we already do
**Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. **
catholicknight.blogspot.com/2010/10/archbishop-condemns-schismatic-american.html
THE CATHOLIC KNIGHT: The U.S. Catholic Church is in immediate peril! There is a significant threat of schism looming in Detroit. For some time now ‘The Catholic Knight’ blog has warned of a significant threat to Church unity in the United States. Now the Archbishop of Detroit has also seen the threat and acted accordingly.
The threat comes from Progressive Modernists within the U.S. Catholic Church. These are “Catholics” who view the Second Vatican Council as some kind of watershed event, a rupture with historic Catholicism, and a license to go forward with various “reforms” and innovations all in the name of the “Spirit of Vatican II.” These people, both clergy and laity, have ruled over various parishes and dioceses in the United States
like dictators. They’ve suppressed those who clamored for a return to tradition and promoted those who abused the liturgy and twisted Church doctrine. Their height of power was in the decades immediately following the Second Vatican Council (1970s - 1990s). Now that their influence is beginning to wane under the pontificate of Benedict XVI, these liberal dissenters of the historic Church have seen the writing on the wall. They know their days are numbered, and so in a desperate attempt to preserve what they have worked so long for, and re-energize a new generation with their heretical zeal, these people are now attempting to create a rival council to the pope and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. It’s called the American Catholic Council (or ACC), and it’s first meeting is scheduled for June 10-12 of 2011 at the Detroit Convention Center and Detroit Marriott Renaissance Center.
In response, Archbishop Allen H. Vigneron has issued the following statement condemning the American Catholic Council. Here are the highlights…
(Archdiocese of Detroit) - …Although their stated purpose is to "respond to the Spirit of Vatican II by summoning the Baptized together to demonstrate our re-commitment and the documents issued by the American Catholic Council offer some valid aspirations for the Church, in fact, the goals proposed are largely in opposition to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the Holy Spirit, which inspired the Council.
You come dangerously close to calling traditionalist good…and everyone else evil…Shame on you
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Yes…and that is for the priest and Bishops to decide…not Joe Catholic in the pew.
You do not even consider that three Masses spaced together - if they run 15-20 minutes over are running into each other. Heck…we run into each other now. There is no other priest or deacon in the rectory…just our one priest…who has to have a dispensation as it is to say the three Masses.
Now you can say you don’t like it…but to call it an abuse? That is too much! Is there a reason that you think you can judge that and not the priest? I seriously would like to know.
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
I really didn’t realize that Altar girls are responsible for all the evil in the world…
Too bad the Pope formally thanked them for their service to the Church…
Too bad the Pope formally thanked them for their service to the Church…
Z
Zosimus41
Guest
Since when is quoting church canon and EWTN going too far?You go too far! Seriously! Those who see that Mother Church has spoken on some things and trust in her…now we are calling evil good? I can’t even take you seriously when you comment like that!
You come dangerously close to calling traditionalist good…and everyone else evil…Shame on you
Just because you disagree?
everyone else evil… Who do you mean by everyone else? Do you mean those who make up thier own set of rules at mass?
Tradition is what keeps us Roman Catholic. Going against Catholic tradition is heretical.
Let me teach you something. If you have an open heart to receive the word you will accept it if not go ahead and side with the world.
carm.org/roman-catholicism-bible-and-tradition
One of the great differences between Protestant and Catholic doctrine is in the area of Tradition. The Protestant church maintains that the Bible alone is intended by God to be the source of doctrinal truth (2 Tim. 3:16). The Catholic Church, however, says, “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God . . .” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 97. Note, all citations in this article are from this Catechism).
The Catholic Church reasons thusly:
1.“The apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority.’” (Par. 77).
2.“This living transmission, accomplished through the Holy Spirit, is called tradition…” (Par. 78).
3.“Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” (Par. 82).
Within the Catholic scope of Tradition, many doctrines have been “revealed” to the Church over the centuries. For example, there is the veneration of Mary, her immaculate conception and her bodily assumption into heaven. There is also the apocrypha, transubstantiation, praying to saints, the confessional, penance, purgatory, and more. Protestantism as a whole differs with Catholicism in these additions.
Tradition in the Bible
The Bible speaks about tradition. Some verses speak for tradition and others speak against it. Of course, the contexts are different and carry different meanings. For example:
2 Thess. 3:6, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.”
Matt. 15:3-6, “And He answered and said to them, 'And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, Honor your father and mother, and, He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death 5But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or mother, Anything of mine you might have been helped by has been given to God, 6he is not to honor his father or his mother. And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”
2 Thess. 2:15, “So then, brethren, **stand firm and hold to the traditions **which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”
Mark 7:8-9, “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men. 9He was also saying to them, You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.”
1 Cor. 11:2, “Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.”
Col. 2:8, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."
Z
Zosimus41
Guest
if they run 15-20 minutes over are running into each other. What does this even mean?
The whole point is this position has been abused the church even has recognised its an issue…doesnt matter what I think. im not making this up.
From the Vatican…]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
“Certainly the liturgical reform inaugurated by the Council has greatly contributed to a more conscious, active and fruitful participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar on the part of the faithful.”[10] Even so, “shadows are not lacking”.[11] In this regard it is not possible to be silent about the abuses, even quite grave ones, against the nature of the Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as the tradition and the authority of the Church, which in our day not infrequently plague liturgical celebrations in one ecclesial environment or another. In some places the perpetration of liturgical abuses has become almost habitual, a fact which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease.
catholicinsight.com/online/church/liturgy/article_470.shtml
Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers
By Insight Staff
Issue: June 2003
Rome - In a statement of September 9, 2002, **Pope John Paul II **addressed the bishops of Brazil on the “serious abuses” stemming from the erroneous trend to “clericalize the laity.” Included in a list of examples of these abuses was distribution of Communion by the laity. While other items in the list such as homilies given by lay people and indiscriminate and common recitation of the Eucharistic prayer did not seem out of order for the Pope to take issue with, B]the practice of lay people distributing Communion has become so commonplace that its presence as an abuse seems startling
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/EXTRMIN.HTM
mycatholicsource.com/mcs/pc/sacraments/lay_ministers__why_not.htm
Introduction of So-Called ‘Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist’
The use of so-called ‘Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist’ (also wrongly, but popularly, called “Eucharistic Ministers”) - lay persons (including women) distributing Holy Communion - began in the 20th century as a result of disobedience to the Pope. Their use, in the wake of the Second Vatican Council, has contributed to irreverence, loss of faith, confusion of the priestly role, desecration, and sacrilege. Their use is an entire break with Catholic tradition, and it coincides with Protestant sensibilities. Many Catholics mistakenly believe this practice is the norm in the Church, however, the truth is that the use of these so-called “Extraordinary Ministers” was only to be tolerated under certain “extraordinary” conditions. And, even the limited, occasional toleration of them was extracted from the Holy See due to widespread disobedience on the part of certain persons (e.g. liberals/Modernists and feminists). In many cases they are not permitted and the frequent use of them is recognized by the Church as an abuse. It should be noted that the Second Vatican Council never called for their use
S
severus68
Guest
You are saying two wrong things:The problem is my friend the spirit of the world or what may be called the “smoke of satan”
has entered the church.
We live in a society of equal rights, pollitically correctness, Im ok your ok, live and let live. This has crept in the church.
The church is divided traditionalist (folks who want the church to remain traditional i.e. catholic)
modernist (those who want the church views to mirror world views)
Soon we will all be holding hands and singing amazing grace…Oh wait a minute we already do
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
catholicknight.blogspot.com/2010/10/archbishop-condemns-schismatic-american.html
THE CATHOLIC KNIGHT: The U.S. Catholic Church is in immediate peril! There is a significant threat of schism looming in Detroit. For some time now ‘The Catholic Knight’ blog has warned of a significant threat to Church unity in the United States. Now the Archbishop of Detroit has also seen the threat and acted accordingly.
The threat comes from Progressive Modernists within the U.S. Catholic Church. These are “Catholics” who view the Second Vatican Council as some kind of watershed event, a rupture with historic Catholicism, and a license to go forward with various “reforms” and innovations all in the name of the “Spirit of Vatican II.” These people, both clergy and laity, have ruled over various parishes and dioceses in the United States
like dictators. They’ve suppressed those who clamored for a return to tradition and promoted those who abused the liturgy and twisted Church doctrine. Their height of power was in the decades immediately following the Second Vatican Council (1970s - 1990s). Now that their influence is beginning to wane under the pontificate of Benedict XVI, these liberal dissenters of the historic Church have seen the writing on the wall. They know their days are numbered, and so in a desperate attempt to preserve what they have worked so long for, and re-energize a new generation with their heretical zeal, these people are now attempting to create a rival council to the pope and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. It’s called the American Catholic Council (or ACC), and it’s first meeting is scheduled for June 10-12 of 2011 at the Detroit Convention Center and Detroit Marriott Renaissance Center.
In response, Archbishop Allen H. Vigneron has issued the following statement condemning the American Catholic Council. Here are the highlights…
(Archdiocese of Detroit) - …Although their stated purpose is to "respond to the Spirit of Vatican II by summoning the Baptized together to demonstrate our re-commitment and the documents issued by the American Catholic Council offer some valid aspirations for the Church, in fact, the goals proposed are largely in opposition to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the Holy Spirit, which inspired the Council.
- Giving a Catholic to be a 'gloom, doom" view of the Church;
- Saying traditionalists are the only true Catholics.
If you want to be a traditionalist, fine but you have insulted all those who are not traditionalists.
If the Church is fine with the singing of "Amazing Grace’ and holding hands during the Lord’s’ Prayer, who are you to see that as evil.
S
severus68
Guest
You go too far! Seriously! Those who see that Mother Church has spoken on some things and trust in her…now we are calling evil good? I can’t even take you seriously when you comment like that!
You come dangerously close to calling traditionalist good…and everyone else evil…Shame on you
S
severus68
Guest
Please do not be presumptuous enough to try to teach us. We learn from the Catechism, for our clergy etc, thank you.
A
agnes_therese
Guest
Seriously? ** “Extracted from the Holy See”** - !!! I wonder how one can remain Catholic if one has so little respect for the Vatican.
D
Debora123
Guest
Um wow.
Some of these posts shouldn’t even be dignified with a response.
Some of these posts shouldn’t even be dignified with a response.
D
Debora123
Guest
You go too far! Seriously! Those who see that Mother Church has spoken on some things and trust in her…now we are calling evil good? I can’t even take you seriously when you comment like that!
You come dangerously close to calling traditionalist good…and everyone else evil…Shame on you
L
LightBound
Guest
Yes, he has and those kind of comments are against forum rules!!You go too far! Seriously! Those who see that Mother Church has spoken on some things and trust in her…now we are calling evil good? I can’t even take you seriously when you comment like that!
You come dangerously close to calling traditionalist good…and everyone else evil…Shame on you
C
Cat
Guest
That’s why I got out of this thread.
Often we Catholics wonder why there is so little respect for our priests and bishops, and why so many Catholics are “cafeteria Catholics” who pick and choose those parts of Catholic teaching that they agree with.
It is very clear that the decision about altar girls is given to the local authorities (the bishops). We in the pews may not personally like the decision that our bishop makes, but HE is the God-chosen and Church-ordained authority, and we need to submit to HIS decision and support him.
When we disagree in public with what our bishop has proclaimed, I believe this can lead to a “climate of disagreement” that eventually causes weaker Catholics to fall into the habit of questioning not only the decisions of the Church about practices, but also the teachings of the Church in regards to dogma. E.g., a weaker Catholic who hears about or reads about the disagreement over altar girls thinks that it’s OK for them to disagree about birth control, and eventually they disagree about True Presence, and eventually–they aren’t practicing Catholics anymore.
We need to be faithful in little things first.
S
Stylites
Guest
It’s not your place to correct your priest, but your priest’s place to correct you. The next time you are ready to walk out of a Church in a huff when they are doing something perfectly fine and holy and proper, go and ask the priest first rather than asking a bunch of stangers on the internet. He himself will be able to instruct you on the liturgical actions you have a question or a concern about.
You quote Scripture about reproving a brother, which in its proper context is to go to him directly, not to broadcast his supposed sins before the world first. If you don’t know what is right and proper to begin with, ask your priest for his educated instruction, which is one of his many roles he has been assigned by Christ. We are not your representatives of Christ; your own priest is.
D
Debora123
Guest
If some traditionalists disagrees with the pope or with a bishop or priest, that’s on them. What bugs me is when they start insulting others, and when they start making rash claims/accusations that have no proof whatsoever. Like accusing altar girls of being the reason behind a decline in priests. I mean, really??
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