Always in union with Rome?

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But marduk, I think that’s the point: The Portuguese did quite a number on the Syro-Malabars and it wasn’t something locals particularly wanted or appreciated. Remember that the heavy-handed latin approach ultimately led to the Coonan Cross Oath.
The local Latin/Portuguese authorities exerted pressure to expand the Latin Catholic Church in that region. What does that have to do with the formation of the Syro-Malabar Church? No one forced the East Syrian Tradition on the Malabar Christians. They simply always maintained it. Saying that the Syro-malabar Church was formed under pressure or force would be tantamount to claiming the Malankara Orthodox Church was formed under pressure or force (if the pressure was simply due to the circumstance that no East Syrian bishop was available at the time).
Even so, IIRC, it was several centuries later that the Syro-Malabars were allowed their own hierarchy.
I believe it was in the 18th century when the Syro-Malabar Church became a sui juris Church. The Syro-malabars had their own ordinary since before the Malankara Orthodox were formed, preserving their Traditions distinct from the Latins, It’s just that they did not have sui juris status until later (when they were appointed a metropolitan)…

Blessings
 
The local Latin/Portuguese authorities exerted pressure to expand the Latin Catholic Church in that region. What does that have to do with the formation of the Syro-Malabar Church? No one forced the East Syrian Tradition on the Malabar Christians. They simply always maintained it. Saying that the Syro-malabar Church was formed under pressure or force would be tantamount to claiming the Malankara Orthodox Church was formed under pressure or force (if the pressure was simply due to the circumstance that no East Syrian bishop was available at the time).
Yes, but the latins also subjugated the native Syro-Malabars and imposed an incredible amount of latinization. I certainly didn’t say the Syro-Malabar Church was formed under pressure. Rather the opposite. In some ways, it’s stunning that the Syro-Malabar Church was able to survive at all amidst such heavy-handedness from the latins.
I believe it was in the 18th century when the Syro-Malabar Church became a sui juris Church. The Syro-malabars had their own ordinary since before the Malankara Orthodox were formed, preserving their Traditions distinct from the Latins, It’s just that they did not have sui juris status until later (when they were appointed a metropolitan).
Maybe so, but it was some sort of hodgepodge arrangement, with the latins clearly in control, irrespective of whether any bishop was a native Syro-Malabar. It was only Leo XIII in 1887 (I think) who allowed the establishment of a proper ordinary jurisdiction for the SMC. The restoration of a proper hierarchy came only in 1923 (I think) under Pius XI.
 
Please, don’t consider this to be a parallel. I am going to drop a little information about how “to be forced” is felt when speaking about Byzantine unions in Slavic world + Hungary, especially where west and east met and unions were established.

For example in remote parts of Slovakia and Carpathian Rus (now the most Western part of Ukraine), Galicia… altogether where Rusins live there is sometimes tendention to say that Sts. Cyril and Methodius were OK with Rome, even ordained and established archbishop of Great Moravia and Panonia by Rome. People there followed thier approach and when official Byzantine influence was removed, they were trying to be Byzantine (more exactly “as fathers did”) as well as “Roman friendly”. Later they were “catched” by Orthodox bishops, but they were trying their best even under these circumstances and Union was just public declaration when also hierarchy addopted official Catholic standing. (Some were catched by Latin bishops.) However, this was never officialy stated.
Of course Orthodox cannot agree with this, pointing out that Cyril and Methodius were Orthodox and living in times when Rome was in communion, and their followers were Orthodox until not brought to Union.

It seems to be that unions of Ruthenians, Slovaks… were not forced and not rarely all the clergy said their yes and there were no problems and Greek Catholics say this was their happy decision, no forcement. (Later latinisation is another topic.) In Slovakia, where Orthodox Church earned bad image during communism, Orthodox maximally say that people were lied. In Ukraine they are more able to “fit hisotry”. I think that these unions were voluntary for clergy and people just followed.

Unions taking place more east were not so full 100 % agreed, maybe one or two bishops did not give their signature but they were not punished (well, maybe there was parallel Catholic bishop but these ones were not sent to prison). Catholic monarchs supported Catholics and Orthodox remained unsupported but open persecution was not usual. Orthodox had not so easy living but were tollerated. Exceptions existed. It could have been problem if converting from Catholicism was illegal, but individuals switching were very rare, bishops switching with whole communities were the norm.

When some territories were taken back by Russians, situation was probably harder for Catholics than for Orthodox before. Somewhere were synods but often a) less enthusiastic, or b) just partly supported and not (nearly) unanimous as before. Exceptions existed. Trend look likes move O–>C was easier and more voluntary than C–>O. There were nearly no martyrs for Orthodoxy at first switch but if there was second switch back to Orthodoxy, there were usually martyrs and “rebel” bishops and priests.

Now when we focus on situation of Orthodox e. g. in Austro-Hungarian monarchy ruled by Catholic emperors or kings: Orthodox were officialy tolerated (in their own remote areas + maybe one church in capital) but very unsupported. One statistic says that in what is now Eparchy of Košice (Slovakia) there were only 5 Orthodox in 1900. But to the end of 19th century, sometimes someone met Orthodoxy abroad and returned home as propagator of coming home from unfortunate union. It was not massive but a few parishes switched. Some of this “switch supporters” were executed as Russian spies. If Orthodox in Slovakia want to show they were bad treated, they show this.

After WW I quite OK. In former Czecho-Slovakia state wanted its own state Rome-free church. This was less successful than expected but some exCatholics became Orthodox and not state-Protestants, however there were only few Orthodox.

When communists came to power, Greek Catholic Church was usually declared illegal and some quasisynods (e. g. no bishops, 7 % of priests, commisions needed just 5 minutes to elaborate documents which need usually years to be prepared, portraits of communist leaders where synod took place etc.) even declared comming home from evil Rome. Some GCs accepted, many pretended to be Latins not to be Orthodox, some went in catacomb status…, bishops and most of priests enprisoned, some tortured and martyred by prison. When GCC was later allowed, churhc just switched illegal to legal existence.

After turn to capitalism was made (if you preffer, you can call it democracy), situation was different: in Slovakia GCC was given back its churches and buildings and number of Orthodox droped to 50 % and Orthodox started to pretend they are greatest martyrs in the world because of this. In Ukraine GCC was made legal but no churches given back.

I think that in countries where Orthodox renome was damaged by communism nearly noone believes in forced unions + they do not seem to be forced. In countries where Orthodox are better established, they are more in force to proclaim more pro-Orthodox interpretations. This is stronger moving east as well as ratio of spontanuous and unanious unions is decreasing when moving east.

This is not situations of e. g. Bulgaria where there are few GC since 19th centrury, or of Croatia were there is/was another context.
 
The Ruthenian and Ukrainian latinizations were not imposed upon them, as such.
Certainly, the UGCC and RuGCC bishops took to heart the latin attitude that the Latin Rite was the ultimate form of liturgy and did move towards it… but it wasn’t actually required of them by anyone else. (And in fact, Leo XIII, Pius X, and every 20th C pope had a hand in telling them to NOT latinize. )

The soviet period saw huge latinizations as a response to suppression - creation of an identity distinct from the Ukrainian Orthodox - as the Soviets Russified the Ukrainian Orthodox, the UGCC and RuGCC rapidly latinized to distinguish themselves and show their solidarity. Even the great Cardinal Slippij…

Only following perestroika and glasnost did delatinization pick up speed.

And in all great irony - in the US and Canada, the UGCC seems to have been less latinized than in the Ukraine!
 
One strange point to latinization (or what it is):

My experience is when you mention in Slovakia that bowing during the Creed is latization, you are told to be out of mind because Roman Catholics do not bow during the Creed at all but Greek Catholics bow case-by-case. (Kneeling Pope during the Creed is felt also to be foreign folclore.)
 
One strange point to latinization (or what it is):

My experience is when you mention in Slovakia that bowing during the Creed is latization, you are told to be out of mind because Roman Catholics do not bow during the Creed at all but Greek Catholics bow case-by-case. (Kneeling Pope during the Creed is felt also to be foreign folclore.)
Nestor, have you read the General Instruction for the Roman Missal, with adaptations approved for the USA? A section is shown below: Does Slovakia (Latin Church) have a different use?

GIRM 275. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bow: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.
a) A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.

b) A bow of the body, that is to say, a profound bow, is made to the altar; during the prayers Munda cor meum (Cleanse my heart) and In spiritu humilitatis (With humble spirit); in the Creed at the words et incarnatus est (and by the Holy Spirit . . . and became man); in the Roman Canon at the Supplices te rogamus (In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God). The same kind of bow is made by the Deacon when he asks for a blessing before the proclamation of the Gospel. In addition, the Priest bows slightly as he pronounces the words of the Lord at the Consecration.
C = Celebrant, D = Deacon
  • (C/D) during the prayers Munda cor meum (Cleanse my heart) and
  • (C) In spiritu humilitatis (With humble spirit);
  • (All) in the Creed at the words et incarnatus est (and by the Holy Spirit . . . and became man);
  • (C) in the Roman Canon at the Supplices te rogamus (In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God).
 
Nestor, have you read the General Instruction for the Roman Missal, with adaptations approved for the USA? A section is shown below: Does Slovakia (Latin Church) have a different use?

I was not refering to what missal or its instruction writes but to what one particular praxis is. You don’t need to have different use, it is often enough to travel just few dioceses (or even parishes) to see that some things are done slightly different. I have seen by my own masses in a number of dioceses and countries and they did differ at some points (and it seems to me to be normal). And what have “adaptations approved for the USA” to do with this?

By the way, I think that this my point was not important for the topic of this thread.​
 
To give better picture:

Let’s stay in this part of world. When leaving Tridentine form, most of bishops decided not to do huge step and so people were kneeling quite a lot during the second part of mass. But some bishops’ conferences adopted point of view that natural position for (Western) Christian during prayer is to be standing. Some thought that there are parts when kneeling is necessary but you need not to kneel too much, so during “intermezzo” people are sitting. So when attending masses in three neighbouring countries, you see once people standing, once sitting, and once kneeling at the same point of mass.
Or Agnus Dei: in Slovakia standing, in Czech Republic (especially its Czech part) differs parish to parish standing or kneeling. Move just one country, all kneeling.

And mellodies of Creed or the Lord’s prayer (and of others) also differ according to decision of appropriate commision of bishops’ conferences which are sometimes changing this also as time goes so what you were used to ten years ago may or may not be holding now.
 
I was not refering to what missal or its instruction writes but to what one particular praxis is. You don’t need to have different use, it is often enough to travel just few dioceses (or even parishes) to see that some things are done slightly different. I have seen by my own masses in a number of dioceses and countries and they did differ at some points (and it seems to me to be normal). And what have “adaptations approved for the USA” to do with this?

By the way, I think that this my point was not important for the topic of this thread.
OK. I thought you were referring to Latinization (by bowing in the Creed) in the eastern Churches. People are not doing that in our Byzantine parish, however I do see different forms of bows that are not according to the rubrics of the Byzantine recension. However, people always vary in what they do.
 
OK. I thought you were referring to Latinization (by bowing in the Creed) in the eastern Churches. People are not doing that in our Byzantine parish, however I do see different forms of bows that are not according to the rubrics of the Byzantine recension. However, people always vary in what they do.
There are almost no rubrics in the Byzantine liturgy about the people’s postures… only the priests… except as a latinizaion. (EG: The current Ruthenian-American “teal terror”.)
 
There are almost no rubrics in the Byzantine liturgy about the people’s postures… only the priests… except as a latinizaion. (EG: The current Ruthenian-American “teal terror”.)
Really, I don’t understand what you mean there about the promulgated green book. (Can you be explicit?) The ***Ordo Celebrationis 1944 (English 1955) ***specifically mentions reverences (which I suppose you can say is “almost no rubrics”) of four kinds:
  • A small bow is the sign of the cross with slight head inclination, no hand to knees or ground which is used in *general *(page 3, item 11)
  • The sign of cross, without inclination of head at Gospel (page 4, item 11)
  • A great bow (entire body to the ground) is not used except at the presanctified/lent (page 4, item 12)
  • A profound adoration (hand down) done twice during consecration (page 18, item 135) *
  • The green book adds a third time, not in the recension, after the Anaphora after the word “condemnation”.
 
Really, I don’t understand what you mean there about the promulgated green book. (Can you be explicit?) The ***Ordo Celebrationis 1944 (English 1955) ***specifically mentions reverences (which I suppose you can say is “almost no rubrics”) of four kinds:
  • A small bow is the sign of the cross with slight head inclination, no hand to knees or ground which is used in *general *(page 3, item 11)
  • The sign of cross, without inclination of head at Gospel (page 4, item 11)
  • A great bow (entire body to the ground) is not used except at the presanctified/lent (page 4, item 12)
  • A profound adoration (hand down) done twice during consecration (page 18, item 135) *
  • The green book adds a third time, not in the recension, after the Anaphora after the word “condemnation”.
The 2007 specifies when, which, and also posture is to be used. Even the 1944 is a latinization in having it specified in the liturgical texts rather than left to oral tradition.
 
Speaking of the RDL, is that the only translation allowed in Ruthenian parishes, or can the older books be used, even if unofficially?
There are almost no rubrics in the Byzantine liturgy about the people’s postures… only the priests… except as a latinizaion. (EG: The current Ruthenian-American “teal terror”.)
 
Speaking of the RDL, is that the only translation allowed in Ruthenian parishes, or can the older books be used, even if unofficially?
For English, it’s supposed to be the current book only. Not all priests are obedient to that directive from the synod.

From page 3 of the text:
This book is approved for use in churches of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church Sui Juris of Pittsburgh, U.S.A., promulgated on the feast of the Theophany of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, January 6, 2007. On and after the feast of the Holy and Pre-eminent apostles Peter and Paul, June 29, 2007, this text and its attendant music will be the sole liturgical text for the celebration of the Divine Liturgies of our Holy Fathers John Chrysostom and Basil the Great.

For slavonic, the 1965 texts are still permitted. (There was no revision of these in 1996 that I’ve seen, and specifically are excluded from the 2007.) The current (2007) hymnal has most of the people’s responses in slavonic.

There is a spanish translation that’s approved alongside the 2007, but I don’t know it’s specific date.

The Italo-Greek/Italo-Albanian liturgy is approved for specific parishes.

There is another “cared for” group as well, but they officially are supposed use the RDL current version for english.

Certain holy day liturgies had special books under the 1996 revisions - those special books are still used, but are not supposed to be.

There are 4 Ruthenian American revisions I’m aware of: the 1944, the 1956, the 1996, and the 2007. The 2007 is the largest change… and it’s really not that big. It’s just enough to make the old books hard to use.
 
The 2007 specifies when, which, and also posture is to be used. Even the 1944 is a latinization in having it specified in the liturgical texts rather than left to oral tradition.
The diataxis of liturgical directives for the clergy was added as early as the tenth century, departing from reliance the oral tradition. (Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium s.v. Diataxis; Taft, 1978: xxxv-xxxviii; Rentel 2005.)

svots.edu/fr-alexander-rentel-thesis-abstract/

Also see: The Byzantine Rite: A Short History By Robert F. Taft
books.google.com/books/about/The_Byzantine_Rite.html?id=TRwMAGgCGM4C
 
I just recalled reading an article a LOOOONG time ago that the Armenian Catholic Church believes itself to have always been in union with Rome. IIRC, the claim was that there were ALWAYS pockets of Armenian Catholics in many countries and in every century (i.e., willing to be in the Catholic communion), and that the establishment of the Armenian Catholic Church simply managed to give a formal hierarchy to that Church.

If I find that article again, I will post it here.

Blessings
 
The diataxis of liturgical directives for the clergy was added as early as the tenth century, departing from reliance the oral tradition. (Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium s.v. Diataxis; Taft, 1978: xxxv-xxxviii; Rentel 2005.)

svots.edu/fr-alexander-rentel-thesis-abstract/

Also see: The Byzantine Rite: A Short History By Robert F. Taft
books.google.com/books/about/The_Byzantine_Rite.html?id=TRwMAGgCGM4C
The 20th C Ruthenian books specify not only for clergy, but the laity as well.
 
The 20th C Ruthenian books specify not only for clergy, but the laity as well.
I can see that some instructions have been added more recently, however there are some that have always been present for the laity:

“Wisdom! Let us stand and listen to the holy Gospel.”
“Let us stand aright” at the beginning of the Anaphora.
“Catechumens, bow your heads to the Lord.” at the Litany for the Catechumens.
“Bow your heads to the Lord” after the Lord’s Prayer.
“Approach with fear of God” before communion.
“Arise! Now that we have received” before the Prayer of Thanksgiving.
 
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