Always struggled with God knowing the future

[Polycarp1]

But if he knows what your going to do, why are you praying about it? Thats my dilema. Don’t get me wrong, I will continue to pray. I’m just looking for a fuller understanding. I don’t see how the football game analogy helps. maybe it could be elaborated upon. Is it fair to say that God knew before the dawn of existence that I would pray for or about a particular thing, so the outcome was set anyway? I always think of praying in the moment for a situation but forget it’s all planned already. In addition, prayer is to change me, not to always alter an outcome (I think).

God is eternally present. He is not limited by time or space. It is man who marks time in a linear fashion and God speaks to us in ways that we will understand, but after all how does the all knowing all seeing “eternal Being” explain himself to man with our limited capacity and intellect. That is how God can see and know what will happen in our future without interfering with our freewill to choose. God looks as our lives in terms of eternity and not as we often do as the short period between birth and physical death. Time is the ticking of the universe. Before creation there was no time or space, there was God. “I AM WHO AM!”

Because He respects our freewill our prayers are actually giving Him our consent to intervene. But if he does intervene it may not be in the way we may think it should go as again He is more concerned about our eternal life than we are. Sometimes we pray for things that could ultimately do us spiritual harm and God won’t do us harm. He loves us more than we love ourselves. He hears our prayers and as He is not limited by time and space and is eternally present he can apply our prayers anytime in what we know as our past, present or future.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

But if he knows what your going to do, why are you praying about it? . . . Is it fair to say that God knew before the dawn of existence that I would pray for or about a particular thing, so the outcome was set anyway?.

He knows what you’re going to do–but that doesn’t change the fact that you will freely do it. In the end your life story will be will be set by your free choices. So if you end up going to hell, it’s because you choose to will fall away from God. Thus the video-taped football analogy is merely a record of what happened.

I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about this, rather worry about wasting the graces God gives you to become holy in your place in life, to ensure that your life story ends in heaven. A saint is like a pencil in God’s hands, allowing Him to write the story of your life.

 

[johnnyjones]

He knows what you’re going to do–but that doesn’t change the fact that you will freely do it. In the end your life story will be will be set by your free choices. So if you end up going to hell, it’s because you choose to will fall away from God. Thus the video-taped football analogy is merely a record of what happened.

I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about this, rather worry about wasting the graces God gives you to become holy in your place in life, to ensure that your life story ends in heaven. A saint is like a pencil in God’s hands, allowing Him to write the story of your life.

Very true. Thank you.

 

[belorg]

Would a God who is capable of creating a universe need man made understandings to know the future?

This has nothing to do with man made understandings. It has to do with logical possibilty. And it is logicallly impossible to have factual knowledge about a counterfactual.

 

[belorg]

He knows what you’re going to do–but that doesn’t change the fact that you will freely do it.

God’s knowng this does not change any fact at all, but the fact that God (or whoever) can know something for a fact means that there is a fact to be known, which means that the choice I am going to make at some point is already a fact even before I was born.Which menas I cannot change any future fact, which means I cannot be free in a libertarian sense.

In the end your life story will be will be set by your free choices. So if you end up going to hell, it’s because you choose to will fall away from God. Thus the video-taped football analogy is merely a record of what happened.

The video-taped football analogy shows there is an unchangeable future. The video tape has been made before i was born.

I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about this, rather worry about wasting the graces God gives you to become holy in your place in life, to ensure that your life story ends in heaven. A saint is like a pencil in God’s hands, allowing Him to write the story of your life.

 

[johnnyjones]

This has nothing to do with man made understandings. It has to do with logical possibilty. And it is logicallly impossible to have factual knowledge about a counterfactual.

Why would you think all that holds up with your understanding of God should be applied to him? The point is when your dealing with a spirit (God) that can shape worlds and create a human brain, any and all manifestations are possible. I see though you are Atheist and have substituted infinite matter for God which may explain your thought process.

 

[Polycarp1]

Seeing God everywhere and all things upheld by Him is not a matter of sanctity, but of plain sanity, because God IS everywhere and all things are upheld by Him. What we do about it may be sanctity; but merely seeing it is sanity. To overlook God’s presence is not simply to be irreligious; it is a kind of insanity, like overlooking anything else that is actually there.
It is part of the atmosphere in which we live - and which therefore we too must breathe - to take for granted that these considerations are edifying, and possibly even relevant if one happens to be of a religious temperament: but not otherwise.
It may be a first step towards a fumigation of the atmosphere if we see the fallacy of this too easy view.
If you were driving in a car, saw it heading straight for a tree, and called out to the driver to swerve or he would hit it; and if he answered: “It is no good talking to me about trees:
I’m a motorist, not a botanist,” you would feel that he was carrying respect for the rights of the specialist too far. A tree is not only a fact of botany: it is a fact.
God is not only a fact of religion: He is a fact.
Not to see Him is to be wrong about everything, which includes being wrong about one’s self.
It does not require any extreme of religious fanaticism for a man to want to know what he is: and this he cannot know without some study of the Being who alone brought him into existence and holds him there.
SHEED

 

[belorg]

Why would you think all that holds up with your understanding of God should be applied to him? The point is when your dealing with a spirit (God) that can shape worlds and create a human brain, any and all manifestations are possible. I see though you are Atheist and have substituted infinite matter for God which may explain your thought process.

If you want to deny all logic, then go ahead. If, however you wish your faith to be rational, nothing what you say here makes any sort of sense.

 

[johnnyjones]

If you want to deny all logic, then go ahead. If, however you wish your faith to be rational, nothing what you say here makes any sort of sense.

Is believing that the universe always existed logical? Maybe, and maybe not. If your an evolutionist I can give you more conflicting logic (by noted scientists). My original point was that your taking the logic of this world and applying it to a God you believe doesn’t exist. How logical is that? The ways of God are not the ways of man.

 

[belorg]

Is believing that the universe always existed logical?[Maybe, and maybe not.

Since there is no logical contradiction in an eternal universe, believing the universe has always existed is definitley not illogical. It can be an incorrect belief, of course, but it is not illogical.

If your an evolutionist I can give you more conflicting logic (by noted scientists)

.

If you can show a logical contradiction in evolution, then I suggest you start a thread on that, but it is not relevant for this thread.

My original point was that your taking the logic of this world and applying it to a God you believe doesn’t exist.

No, I am not applying ‘the logic of this world’, I am applying logic. There is no such thing as ‘logic of this world’ Or do you happen to believe there is some ‘world’ with square circles?

How logical is that?

It is because I apply logic to a certain God concept that I can say with certainty that this God concept is incoherent. That’s how logical it is.

The ways of God are not the ways of man.

That is completely irrelevant since the logic of God IS the same as the logic of man.
[/quote]

 

[johnnyjones]

Since there is no logical contradiction in an eternal universe, believing the universe has always existed is definitley not illogical. It can be an incorrect belief, of course, but it is not illogical.

.

If you can show a logical contradiction in evolution, then I suggest you start a thread on that, but it is not relevant for this thread.

No, I am not applying ‘the logic of this world’, I am applying logic. There is no such thing as ‘logic of this world’ Or do you happen to believe there is some ‘world’ with square circles?

It is because I apply logic to a certain God concept that I can say with certainty that this God concept is incoherent. That’s how logical it is.

That is completely irrelevant since the logic of God IS the same as the logic of man.

#1
You’ve done a lot of word rearrangment here. You don’t support the belief that science can explain our origin? If an eternal universe can be an incorrect belief, then atheism could be an incorrect belief. Your tetering on atheism and agnostisism, logic dictates one or the other.
#2
If contradictions in logic apply to evoultion they most certainly are relevant to contradict your “all logic” approach because it can be tied to the laws of nature. In addition, I ASKED if you wanted a “professional” listing.
#3
An intelligent designer can do whatever he wants. You can’t reduce God to a math equation.
#4
You admitedly don’t believe in God and seem to be spending a fair amount of time apply logic to a non existent being. If God IS the same as the logic of man, then man is God. But as smart as we are, we haven’t made any trees from scratch lately.

 

[belorg]

#1
You’ve done a lot of word rearrangment here. You don’t support the belief that science can explain our origin?

I do not know whether science can fully explain our origin. Someone who claims he does know this is IMO either lying or deluding himself.

If an eternal universe can be an incorrect belief, then atheism could be an incorrect belief.

Yes, atheism could be incorrect. I am keeping an open mind on this. While I think the chance that any sort of God exists is very very small, I cannot prove the non-existence of some sort of God with 100% certainty.

Your tetering on atheism and agnostisism, logic dictates one or the other.

Logic dictates that yoi cannot be 100% sure of something that cannot be logically proven.
Logic in fact ‘dictates’ that, technically, everybody is agnostic.

If contradictions in logic apply to evoultion they most certainly are relevant to contradict your “all logic” approach because it can be tied to the laws of nature.

Sure.If evolution is illogical, then evolution is false. that does not mean theism is true, thoigh.

In addition, I ASKED if you wanted a “professional” listing.

No, I don’t want a professional listing, at least not in this thread, which is about God’s knowledge of the futiure and it’s logical implicatios.
Now, as I said, if you start a new thread on this, I might reply there.

An intelligent designer can do whatever he wants. You can’t reduce God to a math equation.

An intelligent designer cannot do anything logically impossible. Most theists (and most certainly most Catholics) agree with that.
If you don’t, then there is no point discussing this.

You admitedly don’t believe in God

No, I don’t.

and seem to be spending a fair amount of time apply logic to a non existent being.

What I am doing is called a reductio ad absurdum. I am starting from the assumption that an all-knwoing God exists and apply logic to see wheter there is a logical problem or not.
And I have shown a logical problem with divine foreknowledge and free will, which so far nobody in this thread has been able to refute.

If God IS the same as the logic of man,

Who has said that ‘God is the same as the logic of man’?

then man is God. But as smart as we are, we haven’t made any trees from scratch lately.

Nothing can be made ‘form scratch’.

 

[johnnyjones]

I do not know whether science can fully explain our origin. Someone who claims he does know this is IMO either lying or deluding himself.

Yes, atheism could be incorrect. I am keeping an open mind on this. While I think the chance that any sort of God exists is very very small, I cannot prove the non-existence of some sort of God with 100% certainty.

Logic dictates that yoi cannot be 100% sure of something that cannot be logically proven.
Logic in fact ‘dictates’ that, technically, everybody is agnostic.

Sure.If evolution is illogical, then evolution is false. that does not mean theism is true, thoigh.

No, I don’t want a professional listing, at least not in this thread, which is about God’s knowledge of the futiure and it’s logical implicatios.
Now, as I said, if you start a new thread on this, I might reply there.

An intelligent designer cannot do anything logically impossible. Most theists (and most certainly most Catholics) agree with that.
If you don’t, then there is no point discussing this.

No, I don’t.

What I am doing is called a reductio ad absurdum. I am starting from the assumption that an all-knwoing God exists and apply logic to see wheter there is a logical problem or not.
And I have shown a logical problem with divine foreknowledge and free will, which so far nobody in this thread has been able to refute.

Who has said that ‘God is the same as the logic of man’?

Nothing can be made ‘form scratch’.

#1 There are a lot of scientists lying and deluding themselves according to your proposal. Non-theism in many cases puts forth various ideas of origin. Although they may at times not use the word “absolute” they drop the word “theory” and/or present the subject in a factual way. Just turn on one of cables “evolution” channels.
#2 “you can not prove the existence of God” is an agnostic position. YOU identify yourself as an Atheist which as I’m sure you know means there is NO God.
#3 The Bible is the proof of a God. Thats not just some Fundamentalist response. Accurate prophesies through the ages and more which would fill this page. How one applies logic can determine outcome. The “every one is agnostic” statement is catchy but since multitudes would demonstrate otherwise it falls flat.
#4 I used evolution not to prove theism but to show contradictions of logic within it.
#5 Your not getting it on the listing thing.
#6Some may state that but when pressed will acknowledge that whatever logic you apply can be altered or turned on it’s head by something greater.
#7 I know what your doing. It’s been done before and has raised good points as well as resolved nothing. When you subtract faith, the random element, guess what.

We have a world to show for it so “from scratch” is valid.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

the fact that God (or whoever) can know something for a fact means that there is a fact to be known, which means that the choice I am going to make at some point is already a fact even before I was born.Which menas I cannot change any future fact, which means I cannot be free in a libertarian sense.

The past and the future are made up of what you do with your time in the present. Since God is outside of time----in an Eternal Present, He knows all the past and future choices that you make. The fact that He knows what you will choose does not mean you did not have the freedom to make other choices.

God offers you grace to choose the right path, but ultimately you can choose your own path, which may not always be right. God could have made man good, as He made fire is hot, the problem with this is that virtue is only possible when vice is a free choice; that’s what makes virtue beautiful in the first place— a free choice to respond to God’s grace to reject vice and choose virtue. In order for that reality to be possible, man must exist in time and have a free will.

Scientists explain that with the Big Bang, Time and Matter came into existence together. Thus the Cause of time and matter is outside of time and matter. If you study theology (the study of God) you will understand that God is outside of time (Eternal) and outside of matter (Spiritual). God is Infinite, where as man is finite, thus all of man’s free choices mad in time are known to God.

 

[belorg]

#1 There are a lot of scientists lying and deluding themselves according to your proposal. Non-theism in many cases puts forth various ideas of origin. Although they may at times not use the word “absolute” they drop the word “theory” and/or present the subject in a factual way. Just turn on one of cables “evolution” channels.

A scientific theory is not a fact. A scinetific theory is held as an explanantion until a better theory comes along.

#2 “you can not prove the existence of God” is an agnostic position. YOU identify yourself as an Atheist which as I’m sure you know means there is NO God.

I identify myself as an atheist because I do not believe a God exists.

#3 The Bible is the proof of a God. Thats not just some Fundamentalist response. Accurate prophesies through the ages and more which would fill this page.

Just name one ‘accurate prophecy’.

How one applies logic can determine outcome. The “every one is agnostic” statement is catchy but since multitudes would demonstrate otherwise it falls flat.

If I use the same standard of proof you do, then that’s more than enough to ‘prove’ theer is no God.

#6Some may state that but when pressed will acknowledge that whatever logic you apply can be altered or turned on it’s head by something greater.

No serious philospher wil agree with this.

#7 I know what your doing. It’s been done before and has raised good points as well as resolved nothing. When you subtract faith, the random element, guess what.

Since you obviously do not understand what I am saying, there is no point in discussing this any further.

We have a world to show for it so “from scratch” is valid.

Then ‘atheism’ is also valid, because we have a word to show for it.

 

[johnnyjones]

A scientific theory is not a fact. A scinetific theory is held as an explanantion until a better theory comes along.

I identify myself as an atheist because I do not believe a God exists.

Just name one ‘accurate prophecy’.

If I use the same standard of proof you do, then that’s more than enough to ‘prove’ theer is no God.

No serious philospher wil agree with this.

Since you obviously do not understand what I am saying, there is no point in discussing this any further.

Then ‘atheism’ is also valid, because we have a word to show for it.

The “working theory” is like a religion to most in that camp. It is a theory but rarely embraced as that. If you can’t prove anything then all are agnostic (can’t prove God) as you say. You exclude yourself from all. Being atheist doesn’t seem to fit your explainations. Isaiah 9:5- start with that one and put it together.

YOU’VE decided what I do and do not understand. Your right though, the discussion is fruitless. Peace.

 

[belorg]

The past and the future are made up of what you do with your time in the present. Since God is outside of time----in an Eternal Present, He knows all the past and future choices that you make. The fact that He knows what you will choose does not mean you did not have the freedom to make other choices.

So you think that if God (or anybody else for that matter) knows with 100% certainty that I will choose to drink coffee tomorrow, it is still possible that I won’t choose to drink coffee tomorrow?

God offers you grace to choose the right path, but ultimately you can choose your own path, which may not always be right. God could have made man good, as He made fire is hot, the problem with this is that virtue is only possible when vice is a free choice; that’s what makes virtue beautiful in the first place— a free choice to respond to God’s grace to reject vice and choose virtue. In order for that reality to be possible, man must exist in time and have a free will.

Well, if that is true, then God cannot possibly know free choices.

Scientists explain that with the Big Bang, Time and Matter came into existence together.

To be precise: time and space.

Thus the Cause of time and matter is outside of time and matter.

That depends on a definition of ‘matter’

If you study theology (the study of God) you will understand that God is outside of time (Eternal)

Things that are outside of time cannot do anything.

and outside of matter (Spiritual).

I have no idea what ‘spiritual’ means.

God is Infinite, where as man is finite, thus all of man’s free choices made in time are known to God.

Then they are not free in the libertarian sense.

 

[InJesusItrust]

The resolution is to understand that, unlike us, God lives outside of the time. We can live only in the present but God can see what the sum of our actions are. He does not predict the future but He knows what it is. We can change the future but God already exists outside seeing what our changes are.

Think about what the proposition of living at all times means. We can still have free will and God can still know the future as we make it.

 

[belorg]

The resolution is to understand that, unlike us, God lives outside of the time.

That is not the resolution.

We can live only in the present but God can see what the sum of our actions are. He does not predict the future but He knows what it is

.

That’s factual knowledge of the future, which means the future is a fact.

We can change the future

So the future isn’t a fact.

but God already exists outside seeing what our changes are.

So it is a fact that we change the future in a certain way, which gives a factual future that alerady exists prior to our birth.

Think about what the proposition of living at all times means.

The proposition of living at all times means there is such a thing as ‘all times’ to live in, which means that the time in which I choose to drink coffee already exists and so I cannot chnage this ‘time’.

What is it: can I or can’t I chnage the future.

We can still have free will and God can still know the future as we make it.

Is there one future or are there lots of futures? One ijn which I drink coffe tomorrow at 10 a.m. and one in which I drink tea at 10a.m. etc?

If there is only one future, which is a fact, then I am not free in a libertarian sense. And if there are more ‘futures’ then it is impossible to know for a fact which future is going to be true, for the simple reason that this future is not a fact.

 

[shoe]

God’s all-knowing attribute does not interfere with mankind’s free-choice of the human will. Human beings do not make their choices based on God’s omniscience. Knowing that the evening news is going to be on at six o’clock is not the same thing as turning on the evening news at six o’clock. Human beings simply do not make and then act upon their choices based on God’s foreknowledge of the future; rather, human beings make and then act upon their choices based on what they themselves know about in time, which God already has witnessed from the perspective of eternity.