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ProVobis
Guest
Division seems to be the natural by-product of translations.
Cardinal Arinze put it so well in 2006,
The Cardinal never says whether these objectives are met in any of the translations.
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Cardinal Arinze put it so well in 2006,
C
CradleCath
Guest
You’re probably right, however this thread is not about the “new translation”, it is about a person who is desparate to be able to attend the Traditional Latin Mass of 1962. I find it appalling that so many of our BishopS have read Summorum Pontificum, understood it & are still making it so difficult for people to attend.
They are afraid of it, if they weren’t there would be no problem about the two co-existing in every parish & the TLM being taught, as an alternative,in RCIA & the seminaries.
There is no reason at all that every parish can’t celebrate one Latin Mass each Sunday. Mine does & we sometimes have one during the week. Our pastor is young…in his early 30’s, however, when the Motu Proprio was promulgated, he went to classes offered by the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest & learned to say the TLM. He does it beautifully!!
**FROM SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM:
It is, therefore, permissible to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by Bl. John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated, as an extraordinary form of the Liturgy of the Church. The conditions for the use of this Missal as laid down by earlier documents ‘Quattuor abhinc annis’ and ‘Ecclesia Dei,’ are substituted as follows:
Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary.
Art. 3. Communities of Institutes of consecrated life and of Societies of apostolic life, of either pontifical or diocesan right, wishing to celebrate Mass in accordance with the edition of the Roman Missal promulgated in 1962, for conventual or “community” celebration in their oratories, may do so.Art. 4. Celebrations of Mass as mentioned above in art. 2 may - observing all the norms of law - also be attended by faithful who, of their own free will, ask to be admitted.
Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.
§ 2 Celebration in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII may take place on working days; while on Sundays and feast days one such celebration may also be held.
§ 3 For faithful and priests who request it, the pastor should also allow celebrations in this extraordinary form for special circumstances such as marriages, funerals or occasional celebrations, e.g. pilgrimages.
§ 4 Priests who use the Missal of Bl. John XXIII must be qualified to do so and not juridically impeded.
§ 5 In churches that are not parish or conventual churches, it is the duty of the Rector of the church to grant the above permission.
Art. 6. In Masses celebrated in the presence of the people in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII, the readings may be given in the vernacular, using editions recognised by the Apostolic See.
*Art. 7. If a group of lay faithful, as mentioned in art. 5 õ 1, has not obtained satisfaction to their requests from the pastor, they should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is strongly requested *to satisfy their wishes. If he cannot arrange for such celebration to take place, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”.Art. 8. A bishop who, desirous of satisfying such requests, but who for various reasons is unable to do so, may refer the problem to the Commission “Ecclesia Dei” to obtain counsel and assistance.
Art. 9. § 1 The pastor, having attentively examined all aspects, may also grant permission to use the earlier ritual for the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism, Marriage, Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick, if the good of souls would seem to require it.
§ 2 Ordinaries are given the right to celebrate the Sacrament of Confirmation using the earlier Roman Pontifical, if the good of souls would seem to require it.
§ 3 Clerics ordained “in sacris constitutis” may use the Roman Breviary promulgated by Bl. John XXIII in 1962.
Art. 10. The ordinary of a particular place, if he feels it appropriate, may erect a personal parish in accordance with can. 518 for celebrations following the ancient form of the Roman rite, or appoint a chaplain, while observing all the norms of law.
Art. 11. The Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”, erected by John Paul II in 1988 (5), continues to exercise its function. Said Commission will have the form, duties and norms that the Roman Pontiff wishes to assign it.
Art. 12. This Commission, apart from the powers it enjoys, will exercise the authority of the Holy See, supervising the observance and application of these dispositions.
We order that everything We have established with these Apostolic Letters issued as Motu Proprio be considered as “established and decreed”, and to be observed from 14 September of this year, Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, whatever there may be to the contrary.
From Rome, at St. Peter’s, 7 July 2007, third year of Our Pontificate.
Pope Benedict XVI**
BTW. This post is not addressed to you, Bernadette, as you wrote a very nice message.
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laszlo
Guest
There are 6 TLM locations in full Communion with Rome in the diocese of Harrisburg Pennsylvania, 3 of the daily Mass. May be it is not so hard to find one, especially since one is on the same town, York, where the St Peter & Paul mission is located.
HARRISBURG Diocese
Elysburg Carmel of Jesus, Mary & Joseph Weekly Daily
Sunday: 8:00 AM;
M - F: 6:00 AM; Sat: 8:00 AM
Hanover Saint Vincent DePaul Church
1st Wed: 7:00 PM
Harrisburg St. Lawrence Chapel of St. Patrick Cathedral Weekly Daily
Sunday: 8:00 & 10:00 AM
M,T, Th, F: 7:30 AM; W, 7:00 PM; Sat, 9 AM.
Lancaster St. Anthony of Padua Catholic Church Weekly
Sunday: 1:30 PM
York Old Saint Mary Church 4th Sunday: 3:00 PM
York St. Joseph Church Weekly Daily
Sunday: 6:00 AM (was 2nd Sunday)
Mon - Sat:: 6:00 AM
ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm
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CradleCath
Guest
Lazlo, I know that you said that Vatican II brought order to your country of Hungary. Most of Vatican II’s documents have been pretty much ignored here. You can see that by the small Confession lines & the HUGE lines for Communion. You can see the laity distributing the Eucharist. In our diocese of 144,000 Catholics…we have two parishes that offer the Latin Mass. One of them is my own parish who has a TLM. at 12:30PM every Sunday, the other one is St.Patrick’s Oratory which would be a 200mi. round trip…through heavy inner city traffic… for my husband & myself. With gas prices rising daily & threats of it reaching $5.00 a gallon, we cannot afford to make that trip.
Now here is what is odd. Our new Bishop is a Godsend & would love to have a Latin Mass in every parish in the diocese. HOWEVER, he is being persecuted & NO that’s not an ultra-dramatic description. This is was published in the Kansas City Star shortly after the Bishop’s arrival
"The new bishop of northwest Missouri’s 144,000 Catholics, who describes himself as “a strict constructionist,” **wants his flock to be the faithful followers the Vatican wants.**Several months into the job, Bishop Robert W. Finn has made changes in the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph that some people feared and others hoped for.
After taking over in late May, Finn:
Replaced the leadership team of his predecessor, Bishop Raymond J. Boland. (He replaced them with priests.)
More than halved the diocese’s funding of a longstanding center that trained Catholic laypersons to help in their parishes.
Stopped publishing the column of a theologian [Rev. Richard McBrien] often at odds with the Vatican, a move that caused an outcry from some readers of the diocesan newspaper.
ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2006/05/opus-dei-bishop-robert-finn-cleans.html
I realize that you keep saying that our Church is hierarchial. However,
my diocese, since 1969, has literally been run by a “good old boys” faction of the laity. Bishop Finn has to move slowly re the Latin Mass or this same powerful faction will write so many letters to the Vatican that we fear we may lose him. If we do, our diocese will go the way of a certain diocese in CA., & there will be nothing Catholic about it.
Ps. The best thing that happened for our diocese is the endowment of the red hat to our state’s Raymond Burke, Archbishop of St. Louis. I breathe easier now because he knows Bishop Finn (in fact, was his mentor) & will stand behind his traditional catholicism.
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BernadetteM
Guest
CradleCath,
You mentioned the diocese of CA, I assume you mean the one I am near. Well he will be gone in February and Archbishop Gomez, a great man who is also traditional will be taking over. I know he will have to move slowly to make changes, but from what I have heard he did do so in his last diocese.
Hopefully Pope Benedict will take charge of some of these issues, as he is trying to bring back traditions and from what I have read or heard has many enemies who are very close to him. He seems like a very strong leader, but there are so many who will fight every step of the way to bring back traditions and reverence to the Church.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
You mentioned the diocese of CA, I assume you mean the one I am near. Well he will be gone in February and Archbishop Gomez, a great man who is also traditional will be taking over. I know he will have to move slowly to make changes, but from what I have heard he did do so in his last diocese.
Hopefully Pope Benedict will take charge of some of these issues, as he is trying to bring back traditions and from what I have read or heard has many enemies who are very close to him. He seems like a very strong leader, but there are so many who will fight every step of the way to bring back traditions and reverence to the Church.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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CradleCath
Guest
I am so happy to hear that, Bernadette, for your sake & that of the Church, too.
Yes, if anyone can change things Pope Benedict will &, with the help of the Holy Spirit…we can’t lose. We just have to pray for the Holy Father every day. I remember when, in 2005, he said, **“Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves”. **
May God Bless You & give your new Bishop strength & courage. I’ve read good things about Archbishop Gomez:
catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop_gomez_appointed_to_archdiocese_of_la/
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catsrus
Guest
This past Sunday, I attended another parish which was still NO but better. Still a lot of chatter, waving hands, etc. but not quite as obnoxious as that place I described in my original post. Still not what my soul is longing for though either.
I would have attended SSPP had there not been so many here saying it was not in union with the Diocese. I read the documents online and from what I can gather, they began in 2002 in response to the need for many Catholics in this area to have the reverence of the TLM. They do have real priests that travel from all over to celebrate. They have begged for recognition from the Bishop and I do not see why they are not being recognized especially since 2007. This is very confusing!
As to the poster who posted various TLM in the area; Harrisburg is a 2 hour round trip and St. Mary’s and St. Joseph’s only offer TLM once per month.
Since I must work on Sunday’s, I feel fortunate that my boss allows me Sunday mornings to attend Mass at all. Traveling on those days is next to impossible and still be able to make it to work on time.
You see my dilemma?
And at my age and the local economy, finding another job is laughable.
If anyone here knows or can find out why the SSPP TLM continues to be denied recognition by our Bishop, please let me know.
Thanks.
I would have attended SSPP had there not been so many here saying it was not in union with the Diocese. I read the documents online and from what I can gather, they began in 2002 in response to the need for many Catholics in this area to have the reverence of the TLM. They do have real priests that travel from all over to celebrate. They have begged for recognition from the Bishop and I do not see why they are not being recognized especially since 2007. This is very confusing!
As to the poster who posted various TLM in the area; Harrisburg is a 2 hour round trip and St. Mary’s and St. Joseph’s only offer TLM once per month.
Since I must work on Sunday’s, I feel fortunate that my boss allows me Sunday mornings to attend Mass at all. Traveling on those days is next to impossible and still be able to make it to work on time.
You see my dilemma?
And at my age and the local economy, finding another job is laughable.
If anyone here knows or can find out why the SSPP TLM continues to be denied recognition by our Bishop, please let me know.
Thanks.
C
CradleCath
Guest
I don’t know the reason these people are being ostrasized. I don’t know the reason that so many of our Bishops fear the Latin Mass, either…but I do understand your need. This might help, many, MANY Catholics have left the Church rather than endure the Novus Ordo Mass. You can’t let that happen. I am one of 5 children, My parents paid the tuition through 12 years of Catholic school for each of us. They worked HARD & LONG hours to do this, but after the new Mass became the norm…one by one…my brothers & sisters left the Church. Now my parents are dead & I’m the only Catholic left in a family that consisted of at least 5 generations of those faithful to the Church. My children do not have a Catholic cousin. It is so sad. Don’t let this happen to you. I know how desparate you are, because I’ve been there. If a Latin Mass had not been offered to me when it was, I might have left the Church myself…I don’t know.
Go to this STS. Peter & Paul ,for a while at least. You’ll know if it is a Catholic Church…get a DVD. on the Latin Mass & find out what this parish is about. I know a few Catholics who’ve started attending an SSPX chapel, rather than put up with the vertical liturgy at your Church.
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catsrus
Guest
Thanks CradleCath. You have much wisdom.
I probably will attend there (SSPP) this next Sunday.
And don’t worry. I spent too much of my life looking for God to ever, ever leave HMC.
No matter what.
I probably will attend there (SSPP) this next Sunday.
And don’t worry. I spent too much of my life looking for God to ever, ever leave HMC.
No matter what.
L
laszlo
Guest
Luther’s complaint against the Church under Alexander VI was more serious. The Church survived, as the mystical body of Jesus Christ.
There is no promise, that those adhering to the root will be always perfect, but either Jesus and the history teaches that outside of the root, which is the hierarchical jurisdictional Church, the mystical Body of Christ, there is no life.
The most modern example is the Old Catholics.
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tradconvert
Guest
As a fellow convert who now only attends the traditional latin mass I strongly endorse your inclination to attend the SSPP mass nearby - and indeed when it becomes possible those further afield in full communion with Rome. It will be rewarding spiritually and reinvigorate the faith you have adopted and if the experience of many is any guide you will wonder why it took so long to come to the realization that the Traditional mass is the most fulfilling embodiment of the Catholic faith and something your spiritual nourishment cannot do without.Thanks CradleCath. You have much wisdom.
I probably will attend there (SSPP) this next Sunday.
And don’t worry. I spent too much of my life looking for God to ever, ever leave HMC.
No matter what.
A
agent_grey
Guest
Female priests???
Gimme a break. Female spiritual leaders are the halmark of false religion.
LOL… That is like letting my dog run my house. Or worse yet… me as God.
We all have our place and we are all under God in the place appointed…
If you think woman can be spiritual leaders then do yourself a favor and become an SDA.
Gimme a break. Female spiritual leaders are the halmark of false religion.
LOL… That is like letting my dog run my house. Or worse yet… me as God.
We all have our place and we are all under God in the place appointed…
If you think woman can be spiritual leaders then do yourself a favor and become an SDA.
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