Am I a Catholic?

[spn82756]

It’s a bit of both, I definitely think many Catholic teachings in particular about divorce and sex go against human nature and make life unnecessarily painful for many people.

I think the doctrine of hell is very unjust, and that not even the worst of us deserve to be punished infinitely.

I am also a woman, and I have always felt that the language and structure of the Church is a man’s world. Even God and Jesus are male (or at least described in male terms). That has always made me felt left out.

But on a more fundamental level, I have trouble believing even in a deistic God. It’s very hard for me to believe that God actually revealed himself first to the Jewish tribe and then in the person of Jesus.

I don’t see myself ever thinking that the Old Testament is anything other than the thoughts of a warring desert tribe, and I don’t even think there is enough evidence to believe that Jesus was a real person as opposed to a legend like many other religious figures (say Hercules). And even if Jesus was a real person, there are too many problems in New Testament writings (like authorship, contradictions, the time they were written, gospels and writings not included in the official Bible) for me to be convinced that they accurately represent Jesus as he was.

I don’t believe that there is such a thing as a soul, and think that all the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that everything we are is generated by the brain, and once that’s gone, so are we.

I think it’s very hard or impossible to reconcile the idea of Original Sin with gradual evolution from previous, not-quite-human, organisms. I don’t think we could have originated from 2 first parents.

I would say I am pretty far gone, but I used to be a very faithful Catholic who prayed the rosary daily and so on, and still feel some connection with the faith for that reason.

So…you really are on the verge of atheism? Very sad…been there…done that.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Major Tom…I’m 31 years old…despite the fact I have been putting into SS since I was 15, there won’t be any available money by the time I am old enough to draw from it…because the liberals feel the need to give it to illegals who come here and have never contributed a dime to it…if it was up to me, I would not contribute to it and I would build my own retirement account like any independent, free thinking, and sane individual would do instead of relying on a broken government who has never been able to manage money and is not even able of operating a kids lemonade stand on the side of the road. Liberalism RUINS everything and is a cancer like I said that should be removed. I have a crazy idea…why doesn’t the government teach people to be independent and self reliant, instead of relying on the government or welfare checks that were taken from the wages of hard working tax payers…wait I know why, because in our current state, these people are slaves to the government and rely on the government for everything and will keep voting for more entitlements…what is their incentive to work??? None…sit at home and get paid while I go out and support their lavish lifestyle…Poverty in america is a home with 2+ tv’s, cable, dvd player, x-box, food on the table, 1-3 cars, central air/heat, etc…That is B.S…that is not poverty, if you really want to understand what poverty is, go walk the streets of Calcutta, India…then you will realize just how good the “poor” have it in this country…some of them live better than I do and never work a day of their lives. The system is broke and can not sustain itself…it will eventually implode. This implosion is due to liberal and socialist strains our elected officials have place on us and the economy…so yes, Liberalism destroys everything…and even could destroy the greatest country that has ever existed unless we do something to reverse the errors that have been promulgated by the government and voted on by the “entitlement age” of voters.

Wow! You paint with a broad brush! I’m curious… will you be cashing your Social Security checks when you retire? It seems to me that ‘liberalism’ helped push our society to implementing it… or would cashing them “ruin everything (you) that it touches”…

 

[estesbob]

Major Tom…I’m 31 years old…despite the fact I have been putting into SS since I was 15, there won’t be any available money by the time I am old enough to draw from it…because the liberals feel the need to give it to illegals who come here and have never contributed a dime to it…if it was up to me, I would not contribute to it and I would build my own retirement account like any independent, free thinking, and sane individual would do instead of relying on a broken government who has never been able to manage money and is not even able of operating a kids lemonade stand on the side of the road. Liberalism RUINS everything and is a cancer like I said that should be removed. I have a crazy idea…why doesn’t the government teach people to be independent and self reliant, instead of relying on the government or welfare checks that were taken from the wages of hard working tax payers…wait I know why, because in our current state, these people are slaves to the government and rely on the government for everything and will keep voting for more entitlements…what is their incentive to work??? None…sit at home and get paid while I go out and support their lavish lifestyle…Poverty in america is a home with 2+ tv’s, cable, dvd player, x-box, food on the table, 1-3 cars, central air/heat, etc…That is B.S…that is not poverty, if you really want to understand what poverty is, go walk the streets of Calcutta, India…then you will realize just how good the “poor” have it in this country…some of them live better than I do and never work a day of their lives. The system is broke and can not sustain itself…it will eventually implode. This implosion is due to liberal and socialist strains our elected officials have place on us and the economy…so yes, Liberalism destroys everything…and even could destroy the greatest country that has ever existed unless we do something to reverse the errors that have been promulgated by the government and voted on by the “entitlement age” of voters.

Neither this post or the post you are replying to have anything to do with our Faith.

 

[spn82756]

You can not seperate Chirst from his Church-they are one in the same. You can turn away ffrom one without turning away from the other.

Pardon my ignorance and this is a serious question. Do unitarians believe Jesus is both God and the Son of God?

Do all Unitarians believe in God? I’m not being sarcastic…I’m asking the question based on what I’ve been told.

 

[michaeldaniels]

If you were confirmed Catholic, then you know and understand your consequences for willfully rejecting God and His Church…It is the unforgivable sin…Which could result in YOU damning yourself to hell for all eternity…which is a real place regardless if you can’t bring yourself to believe in it. With that said, do I know your level of culpability? No I do not. Can I say given the circumstances that you will go to Hell for your decisions…No I can not. I can’t judge you…that is between you and God. However, I do feel it is incumbent upon me to stress the severity of your decisions…the rest is between you and God. I will pray for you to return home. God Bless

Here’s the rub. I’m guessing that, by ‘turning away from God’, the Church means ‘turning away from the Church’. I submit that one can still make genuine attempts at seeking God, without, or in addition to, the Church.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Sorry…just answering a question that was directed at me…I am permitted to answer someones question right? Or do I need a dispensation?

Neither this post or the post you are replying to have anything to do with our Faith.

 

[estesbob]

Sorry…just answering a question that was directed at me…I am permitted to answer someones question right? Or do I need a dispensation?

All of us run off topic as threads wander around-but the goal is to answer the OPs question-not espouse our political views(even when the voews escpoused arre ones I agree with)

 

[michaeldaniels]

LOL…I hear you and I apologize…I thought it was loosely related, since his question was directly related to a statement I made to the OP, that is why I indulged him, but I am sorry for getting off topic.

All of us run off topic as threads wander around-but the goal is to answer the OPs question-not espouse our political views(even when the voews escpoused arre ones I agree with)

 

[Major_Tom]

LOL…I hear you and I apologize…I thought it was loosely related, since his question was directly related to a statement I made to the OP, that is why I indulged him, but I am sorry for getting off topic.

Apologies for getting off topic! That was my gut reaction, so I just went right ahead and typed it out…

 

[Student09]

As a conservative Catholic, my biggest worry would be that I would squander the only life I had by restricting many of the things that bring happiness for an afterlife that doesn’t exist.

Even when I was a conservative Catholic, I was more an obedient Catholic and a hopeful Catholic, but I always had very strong doubts about the truth of Christianity and even the existence of God. I always felt like I was trying to convince myself of something that most likely wasn’t true.

The tension is not there for me as a liberal, because I no longer feel like I have to make personal sacrifices in quality of life for an afterlife that may not be.

This is very hard for me to understand … the things of the world are so unsatisfying. And God is so beautiful and holy. Once you begin to know God, you won’t want the things of the world anymore, or this has been my experience.

I don’t think praying the rosary every day is enough. It is wonderful to pray the rosary daily, but it is a means to an end, not the end. The end is a love of God. If you are not seeking God through prayer, and wanting to love Him, then prayer is empty. I suggest praying to God to make Himself known to you. Ask that you may come to know Him as He truly is, and not as you want Him to be or think He should be … those who ask, receive.

Also, you have read apologetics on both sides of the argument, but have you read the writings of the saints? I recommend something by Teresa of Avila - either her autobiography, or “The Interior Castle.” It will give you a new perspective on what faith is, what religion is, and Who God Is.

We CAN know joy in God in this life, we do not have to wait until we die - why do you think the martyrs were willing to die for Jesus, and the saints were willing to suffer so much? Because they knew God, they knew His joy and His peace and they knew what was waiting for them. But we must seek God and practice self-denial in order for this to happen. If we empty ourselves, God will fill us with Himself.

 

[Nec5]

Neither this post or the post you are replying to have anything to do with our Faith.

Nearly everything has something to do with our belief in God. Our moral tenets are based on God’s law, and they consequently influence all of our important choices. To argue that our Faith can somehow be compartmentalized when discussing our current society’s problems (politics) is to buy into one of the Devil’s many ploys. This is a major reason for our culture’s decline; the inability or unwillingness to link moral values derived from Faith with our social, economic, and political choices.

To be sure, it’s a tough line to negotiate, but it remains a battle that must be fought all the same.

 

[PJM]

=Major Tom;6248635]To flyingfish: good luck in your struggle. It sounds very similar to the one that I’ve gone through (brought up Catholic, baptized, confirmed, married in the Church). I will not counsel you to leave the Church, nor re-join the Church. I don’t think it’s my place. I was told that good listeners are supposed to listen, repeat back what the speaker says, offer few opinions… and the speaker will usually answer their own questions.

As non-catholics are in the minority here, though, I will try and offer a thought from the “opposition” to try and keep the conversation dynamic.

I think the dualistic choice painted by PJM does not work for me, and may not work for you.

When I ponder a God that it going to punish me, (by sending my immortal soul to hell ), because I have trouble understanding and living with policies that I have to obey, but do not understand (though I’ve tried)… well, that hasn’t led me any closer to God. This strikes me a negative, dour attempt at cowing people into submission. Would you, as a parent, treat your own child this way, with a black-or-white decision, with immortal consequences?

I also want to caution against peer pressure. If you have doubts, I think that you should explore them, as opposed to thinking “Yikes! Immortal soul in hell? I better believe…” and fool yourself into thinking that you’re “on the team”. I don’t think that you (nor God, nor the people next to you in your pew) will be any richer for this experience if you force it.

Instead of turning away from God entirely, I still actively seek him, and read on a variety of topics to try and get closer to him. Who knows, this path may lead me back to the Church one day. If so, I’ll be stronger for it. If not, I’ll be stronger for it. Good luck to you…!

***Major Tom, Hi, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Two points of a different understanding.

1. Because God is and must be, literally has to be GOOD; Divine Justice being a “good thing” heaven and hell have to exist. Why; because Gods gives us a mind, intellect and freewill, so we can choose which one we we be affirmed to. [All of these by the way; are similar to God, but with less than perfect possible application,and are SPIRITUAL THINGS like God Himself.]
2. Also bcause of God being Good and JUST; God must offer to every human person sufficient grace to accept his Salvation. But we do not have to accept it. Thus heaven and hell are BOTH real, both necessary.

Major you mentioned teachings “you could not understand.” I suspect you actualy mean could not / would agree to.

Fath in practice of any religious beliefs wll at some time, some point require faith. Acepting something that we can’t actually sear, hear, touch, or comprehend. But that doen not mean they don’t exist are not real. Air for example. Can’t, see it but its there.

Pride hs rightly been called the cause of all sin. ALL may be a bit strong, but certainly MOST sin is attribuitable to pride. In this Seculr Humanist society we live, Relativism hs taken root. “Its only right or only wrong” IF I SAY ITS SO! HOGWASH!

No society, no busines and no Church can exit for long without rules and governance. The CC is still in existence, after 2000 years because She does not waiver from Her Moral and Faith, supported by history, fact, and Martyrs. One eother belives in God, God’s Word an follows it, or one chooses not too. Those are the ONLY two options God gives to us. Obey be or disobey Me. You decide.***

 

[twb1621]

…!

Major Tom, I for one appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Let me respond to a few things you mentioned here;

To flyingfish: good luck in your struggle. It sounds very similar to the one that I’ve gone through (brought up Catholic, baptized, confirmed, married in the Church). I will not counsel you to leave the Church, nor re-join the Church. I don’t think it’s my place. I was told that good listeners are supposed to listen, repeat back what the speaker says, offer few opinions… and the speaker will usually answer their own questions.

When I ponder a God that it going to punish me, (by sending my immortal soul to hell ), because I have trouble understanding and living with policies that I have to obey, but do not understand (though I’ve tried)… well, that hasn’t led me any closer to God. This strikes me a negative, dour attempt at cowing people into submission. Would you, as a parent, treat your own child this way, with a black-or-white decision, with immortal consequences?

It is a misconception to think the teachings of the Church are policies. Such a personal designation can misguide you from the start. If you do have an objection or difficulty understanding a teaching of the Church, (which is human) it is better to seek guidance to better understand the reasons or teachings of Christ in order to see how the Church derives its laws and doctrines. There is nothing taught in the Catholic Faith that is not supported by Scripture and or Apostolic Tradition through Apostolic Succession. Further, the authority to establish dogma and other teachings come from Christ Himself through the power of the keys which is supported through the Old Testament verifying Christ’s intentions for the assignment of “the Keys”.

As far as what you “have to obey” is concerned, just provide any credible passage from the Bible that says you can choose to obey what you can but do not have to obey all the teachings of Christ. What you have actually said here is you selectively choose the teachings of Christ based on what you can believe, rather than believing in the teachings of Christ as they are. This is the most common reason for a Catholic converting to another Christian Faith.

As far as understanding everything or being condemned to Hell, that is your own misunderstanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church. No one can understand everything of the faith. That is where faith comes in. It is accepting the Word of God and the teachings of His Bride, the Church regardless of whether you fully understand or not.
Example; When Christ spoke of those who must “eat His Body and Drink His Blood”, many walked away for failing to understand Him. When He asked the remaining Apostles if they also would leave Him, Peter assured Jesus they would not, recognizing Jesus for who He was. But notice that the apostles, although they did not understand any better than those who walked away, they remained faithful and accepted Jesus Word and teachings. They were not condemned.

As far as “cowing people into submission” is concerned, Jesus said “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me.” He also said;

John CH12; 46 I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.

And assigning the 72 who He was sending out to preach His teachings, He said;
Luke CH10; 16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

So is it that Jesus Himself is attempting to cower people into submission or is it that the Catholic Church is teaching the Truth in Christ but those such as yourself (and I at one time) refuse to accept all of it because they don’t know the full teachings or refuse to accept what they do not understand? And if you only accept what you understand, where is the faith in that? Where proof exists, faith is mute.
As far as how you teach your child, if you live on a busy street, is the outcome not “black and white” if you fail to teach your child the dangers of playing in the street? Would you not teach your child they could be seriously injured or killed if they play in the street? The Catholic Church has been left with the responsibility of teaching the Word of God that all may reach salvation. To fall short of God’s will in this regard, is self condemnation.
Continued next post……

 

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post;

…!

I also want to caution against peer pressure. If you have doubts, I think that you should explore them, as opposed to thinking “Yikes! Immortal soul in hell? I better believe…” and fool yourself into thinking that you’re “on the team”. I don’t think that you (nor God, nor the people next to you in your pew) will be any richer for this experience if you force it.

Force it, no… that is not appropriate, you are right. But again, having faith and Trust in Christ that what He teaches, whether or not you understand it, is what you are to live by.

Remember these words; John CH16; 12 "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. 13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.”
Note: who did Jesus say would be guided by the Holy Spirit until His return… His Apostles, His Church. Who will the Holy Spirit reveal these enlightenments to and who will be responsible to teach them throughout the time awaiting Jesus’ return… His Church.

Instead of turning away from God entirely, I still actively seek him, and read on a variety of topics to try and get closer to him. Who knows, this path may lead me back to the Church one day. If so, I’ll be stronger for it. If not, I’ll be stronger for it. Good luck to you.

My Christian Brother, your experience is sad but not unique. But God’s word is not flexible, nor is His teachings open to selective acceptance. You were not in a state of condemnation for not understanding, but you should certainly continue seeking the truth and in the mean time, consider having faith and trust in Jesus, the Head Priest of the Church He founded.

 

[Major_Tom]

***Major Tom, Hi, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

---

Howdy…!

***

1. Because God is and must be, literally has to be GOOD; Divine Justice being a “good thing” heaven and hell have to exist. Why; because Gods gives us a mind, intellect and freewill, so we can choose which one we we be affirmed to. [All of these by the way; are similar to God, but with less than perfect possible application,and are SPIRITUAL THINGS like God Himself.]
2. Also bcause of God being Good and JUST; God must offer to every human person sufficient grace to accept his Salvation. But we do not have to accept it. Thus heaven and hell are BOTH real, both necessary.

---

No major argument…

---

Major you mentioned teachings “you could not understand.” I suspect you actualy mean could not / would agree to.

Fath in practice of any religious beliefs wll at some time, some point require faith. Acepting something that we can’t actually sear, hear, touch, or comprehend. But that doen not mean they don’t exist are not real. Air for example. Can’t, see it but its there.

Pride hs rightly been called the cause of all sin. ALL may be a bit strong, but certainly MOST sin is attribuitable to pride. In this Seculr Humanist society we live, Relativism hs taken root. “Its only right or only wrong” IF I SAY ITS SO! HOGWASH!

No society, no busines and no Church can exit for long without rules and governance. The CC is still in existence, after 2000 years because She does not waiver from Her Moral and Faith, supported by history, fact, and Martyrs. One eother belives in God, God’s Word an follows it, or one chooses not too. Those are the ONLY two options God gives to us. Obey be or disobey Me. You decide.***

Well, not sure where else to go with this, but basically, I just reject that premise. I think that there are many ways to God. Your understanding (the Church’s understanding) simply isn’t the only one. If you feel that it works for you, that’s awesome. Really.

Don’t want to belabor the point too much; all of the other threads in the discussion board highlight the many individual issues that keep me (and others) from agreement with the church.

---

One eother belives in God, God’s Word an follows it, or one chooses not too. Those are the ONLY two options God gives to us. Obey be or disobey Me. You decide.***

I still maintain that that is a ruthless, cold-hearted view, and I want nothing to do with it!
You don’t have a monopoly on God.

 

[Renko]

I cannot believe that 55.81 percent voted that this person is stiil Catholic even though they do not believe in what the church teaches. I question wether or not you people are Catholic or even Christians for that matter.

 

[Major_Tom]

Major Tom, I for one appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Let me respond to a few things you mentioned here;

As far as what you “have to obey” is concerned, just provide any credible passage from the Bible that says you can choose to obey what you can but do not have to obey all the teachings of Christ.

I freely acknowledge that you know the Bible better than I do. However, I am not confident that the Bible is the exclusive means to God. Nor that there is one interpretation (the Catholic Church’s) of its passages. WIth that in mind, I can’t use really logic to reference Bible passages that undercut the authenticity of the Bible.
twb1621;6252356:

your child, if you live on a busy street, is the outcome not “black and white” if you fail to teach your child the dangers of playing in the street? Would you not teach your child they could be seriously injured or killed if they play in the street? The Catholic Church has been left with the responsibility of teaching the Word of God that all may reach salvation. To fall short of God’s will in this regard, is self condemnation.

Continued next post……

Let’s continue this analogy… my child refuses my words, gets hurt by a car… ends up in a hospital. Do I leave them there for all eternity, saying “Well, babe, you had a choice, and you didn’t heed my words”. Of course not.

I aim to be humble and open-minded, and read a variety of viewpoints (I’m in the middle of a book by Ben Witherington know; plus reading some biographies of early American deists/unitarians like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin). I am not fomenting rebellion against the Church. I have trouble believing that God is going to be angry with me, punish me, etc., because I’m taking a different road to trying and understand him.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply… I think that we’re both going in the same direction, just taking different ways there.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I freely acknowledge that you know the Bible better than I do. However, I am not confident that the Bible is the exclusive means to God. Nor that there is one interpretation (the Catholic Church’s) of its passages. WIth that in mind, I can’t use really logic to reference Bible passages that undercut the authenticity of the Bible.

Let’s continue this analogy… my child refuses my words, gets hurt by a car… ends up in a hospital. Do I leave them there for all eternity, saying “Well, babe, you had a choice, and you didn’t heed my words”. Of course not.

I aim to be humble and open-minded, and read a variety of viewpoints (I’m in the middle of a book by Ben Witherington know; plus reading some biographies of early American deists/unitarians like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin). I am not fomenting rebellion against the Church. I have trouble believing that God is going to be angry with me, punish me, etc., because I’m taking a different road to trying and understand him.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply… I think that we’re both going in the same direction, just taking different ways there.

I think you bring up good points but I have an analogy for the child that fits the situation a bit better, I think.

You tell your children about drugs --they’re illegal, they’re dangerous, etc.

Your child --with the full knowledge that you have given him, decides to take drugs. Furthermore, he keeps on taking them. Despite your providing him with rehab over and over, he still takes drugs. He gets ‘clean and sober’, then the minute your back is turned robs you blind and buys more drugs. Not only that, he is in with a wild crowd and they’re trying to get the other children in the family to take drugs. Your whole family is in grave physical and emotional danger when this ‘child’ is around.

Now, is there ever going to be a situation where your child can be around the rest of you without being a danger to himself and others? No. And the longer he is on drugs etc. the more tolerance he has built, the more he steals, the worse his behavior gets. Finally it is to the point where he comes and stands outside your door with a knife threatening that the minute somebody lets him in he will kill you all.

THAT is what a person in mortal sin is like. And the only way he can ‘change’ is if God would forcibly ‘wipe out his will’. And this is just what God will never do for He will never ‘force Himself’ upon us. That would make a mockery of His death and resurrection, for instead of us choosing to obey Him, He’d say, “and if you don’t, I’ll have to ‘make you’ obey.” Why die for us, then, if we’re not free to reject Him?

This person will stay like this, not just for a week, a month, a year, but for eternity (which we are not going to experience as ‘time’. I think you’re imagining that after say 7 million years or so a person might ‘weaken’ or ‘repent’. But that doesn’t happen. Once we’re dead we’re out of ‘time’. We have ‘crystalized’ ourselves into an eternal ‘now’ --and we have had the opportunity all our lives to make the right choice. If we do, we have the eternal ‘now’ of that good choice in heaven; if not, the eternal ‘now’ of the bad choice. There is no weakening.

And it isn’t God --or you the parent–who ‘made’ the child take drugs. Time and again, every possible ‘help’ was given. At any point the child could have ‘stuck to’ the choice, stayed clean, etc. But the child didn’t. . .and Heaven is not going to be ‘tyranized’ by Hell.

See, God isn’t **punishing you. **God is offering you salvation, but respecting you enough to let you make the informed and **free choice. **And He has made it so that all your life long to the moment of your death you are free to choose **life.

**if you don’t, it’s not Him ‘punishing you’; it is you freely rejecting Him.

I hope that might help make it clear. It’s not that I’m putting a limit on God–He is very merciful!–but God’s nature is such that He cannot ‘contradict Himself’ --and to permit evil (which is what he would do if he allowed those who rejected him to 'go to heaven anyway) is what he would never do. Also, if we have freely chosen evil, it would likewise be a contradiction for God to forcibly ‘erase’ the evil and ‘make’ us choose good.

 

[twb1621]

.

I freely acknowledge that you know the Bible better than I do.

Its not a compitition My brother, that is not the point of my post to you. At one time I didn’t know what I know now and I sat on the same side of the fence as you. Don’t feel I do not understand or that I am trying to belittle you.

However, I am not confident that the Bible is the exclusive means to God. Nor that there is one interpretation (the Catholic Church’s) of its passages.

I think the passages I quoted are pretty clear in this regard but there are many others if you would like me to reference them for you. There can only be one truth which means one interpretation, one spoken word, and one teaching.

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

WIth that in mind, I can’t use really logic to reference Bible passages that undercut the authenticity of the Bible.

I don’t understand what you are saying here. Would you clarify this for me?

Let’s continue this analogy… my child refuses my words, gets hurt by a car… ends up in a hospital. Do I leave them there for all eternity, saying “Well, babe, you had a choice, and you didn’t heed my words”. Of course not.

If your child looses his or her life over it, you have done what you could to teach the child and it was the Childs choice to disobey, not your negligence to teach the child. If your child survives, he or she hopefully has learned your teachings truthful although the hard way and hopefully returns to you acknowledging in realization of that harmful choice. Isn’t that what God does as well? If you sin and repent, He lovingly welcomes your return. But if you choose to live a self indulgent life in sin and die with those sins, it is you who condemned yourself by your own choices, not God.

I aim to be humble and open-minded, and read a variety of viewpoints (I’m in the middle of a book by Ben Witherington know; plus reading some biographies of early American deists/unitarians like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin). I am not fomenting rebellion against the Church. I have trouble believing that God is going to be angry with me, punish me, etc., because I’m taking a different road to trying and understand him.

You are searching for the truth, which is good. But you fail to realize every person with a personal opinion and there are thousands as you probably know, their opinions are of one source, scripture. Where did scripture come from… the Catholic Church. The best you can do for yourself is to research the lineage of the teachings of Christ. If you then believe someone today who disagrees with that lineage has the most accurate interpretation, you are denying 2000 years of Christ’s teachings from the original source forward. Reading a variety of adverse opinions when you as of yet do not have the truth in understanding the lineage of scripture is self defeating and all you are going to come out with is an adopted opinion from someone who says something you can accept rather than what is factual.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply… I think that we’re both going in the same direction, just taking different ways there.

You’re very welcome Bro. But I have already been hit with the 2 X 4 God swings and I have reached my home with no doubts, an excellent guide, and all the reassurances I could ever desire. But my past profession enabled me to do my research where as most people do not have that going for them.
Again, it is the lineage of the teachings of scripture that prove the true faith, and the true meaning. The contents of every Bible in every Christian faith are from the Catholic Bible, the Catholic Faith, and the Catholic Church. If you want to know the truth regarding Jesus and His teachings, start at the original source 2000 years ago and follow the teachings through history. If you need guidance, by all means seek that also. There are many here including myself who are capable and available to offer direction and help those seeking answers find the answers to their questions if answers exist. You think because you have weakness or doubts that the Church says you are condemned but if that were true, mother Teresa would be condemned as well. Ask your questions and consider the answers you receive. You’ll get there as long as you don’t choose your faith by what you can believe.

 

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I aim to be humble and open-minded, and read a variety of viewpoints (I’m in the middle of a book by Ben Witherington…

consider what I am referring to in regard to opinions, as you have made reference to a few of the authors you are reading. Below are additional scholars and professors highly acclaimed in specific fields of expertise relevant to Christianity. Many referred to and recognized as experts during investigative research. These reflect only a modern day fraction of those who continue to and have researched specific fields of Christianity including scripture of course, many of who throughout centuries have served on committees for the joint effort of obtaining as accurately as possible those interpretations they support. Note, they were not all Catholic but many converted. Also it is telling how many who continued devotedly to acquire such educations have converted to Catholicism from many other faiths including Lutheran.

DR. WILLIAM A. BARBIERI, PH.D** - **ASSOCIATE DEAN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR & DIRECTOR SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY & RELIGIOUS STUDIES

JOSHUA C. BENSON**, **ASSISTANT PROFESSOR- MEDIEVAL THEOLOGY; FRANCISCANS; SAINT FRANCIS AND CLARE; SAINT BONAVENTURE

JOSEPH D. FESSIO, S.J. Ph.D

Gary Anderson, Professor of Theology, specialized in studies and research in the religion and literature of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, biblical narrative, canonical exegesis, biblical theology, Jewish culture and religion and Jewish-Christian relations.

David E. Aune, Professor of New Testament and Christian Origins, specialized in the study of the New Testament and early Christian literature in the context of Greco-Roman society and culture.

John C. Cavadini, Associate Professor of Theology, scholar of patristic and early medieval theology, with special interests in the theology of Augustine and in the history of biblical exegesis, both Eastern and Western, as well as in the reception and interpretation of patristic thought

Rev. Louis Bouyer, PH.D, researcher, lecturer and author specializing in the history of Christian spirituality Former Lutheran minister who entered the Catholic Church in 1939.

Fr. Thomas Dubay, S.M., Professor of theology, morality in Christianity, Author, specialized in the teachings and writings of the Doctors of the Church.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel, CFR. Doctorate in psychology and professor of pastoral psychology, adjunct professor at the Institute for Psychological Sciences. professor at Fordham University, Iona College, and Maryknoll Seminary.

Thomas Howard, PH.D English professor taught at Gordon College and then at St. John’s Seminary. Highly acclaimed writer and scholar, noted for his studies and authorships especially noteworthy for their emphasis on the sacramental, incarnational and ‘transcendent’ aspects of Christianity." Formerly raised evangelical who became Episcopalian in his mid-twenties until pursuing theological education and converting to Catholicism.

Peter Kreeft, Professor and author of ancient Greek Philosophy, Medieval Philosophy, Modern Philosophy, Contemporary Philosophy, Socrates, Plato, Augustine, Aquinas, Pascal, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Marcel, Teilhard de Chardin, C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, Augustine’s Confessions , Aquinas’ Summa , Plato’s Republic , Lost in the Cosmos, Christian Existentialism, Thinking About Religion, The Meaning of Life, Philosophy of Happiness, Philosophy of Love, Peacemaking, Abortion as a Philosophical Problem, Socrates and Jesus, The Three Greatest Men in the World, World Religions, Catholicism: A Philosophical Inquiry; Angels, Devils, Ghosts and Miracles; Three Philosophies of Life; Philosophy in the Bible…

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