Am I a heretic?

[socialcath101]

That’s really cool of you. Having had unwanted/out of place assignments in the Army a time or two, getting to do what you were led/chose to do upon entrance is a total blessing. Nothing is more insulting or confusing to a person who was trained long and hard for a specific job only to be stuck in a general position with no real outlet for the trained position.

I can’t help but think this is a total win-win given the situation as you originally presented it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But why is that needed?

Because all public liturgy in a diocese is under the authority of the bishop. Not just because a priest has faculties means he can just say Mass anytime, anywhere. Even religious orders who are in a diocese but obviously not under the Local Ordinary would need his permission to celebrate public Mass. They can have as many private Masses as they want in their chapels for their community, but once they open their doors to the public then the bishop has a say on those specific Masses.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There’s already a priest who does the ordinary mass there…

Here’s a thought, and I’m not sure of the answer. If that other priest will give way and the FSSP priest say the EF for that scheduled Mass. I believe the permission for Masses is for schedule of Mass and location. So if for example 1pm on a Wednesday is already approved by the diocese, then Fr. FSSP can come in on that schedule and say the EF.

I’m open to correction on this, I don’t know much about this technicality on this matter.

 

[socialcath101]

Because all public liturgy in a diocese is under the authority of the bishop. Not just because a priest has faculties means he can just say Mass anytime, anywhere. Even religious orders who are in a diocese but obviously not under the Local Ordinary would need his permission to celebrate public Mass. They can have as many private Masses as they want in their chapels for their community, but once they open their doors to the public then the bishop has a say on those specific Masses.

Our current mass is open to the public… Father Carter needs permission to do a public latin mass… I couldn’t quite state that as good as Constantine has

Sorry for any confusion

 

[socialcath101]

Because all public liturgy in a diocese is under the authority of the bishop. Not just because a priest has faculties means he can just say Mass anytime, anywhere. Even religious orders who are in a diocese but obviously not under the Local Ordinary would need his permission to celebrate public Mass. They can have as many private Masses as they want in their chapels for their community, but once they open their doors to the public then the bishop has a say on those specific Masses.

That’s it Constantine! I couldn’t pick the right words… Our current mass is open to the public… But that’s a different priest… Father Carter is going to be doing a latin mass…

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I haven’t been able to read thru this whole thread, which seems to have strayed a bit, so pray forgiveness for jumping back to the OP.

I was moved by your situation, and hope you are OK. It;s never a good thing to feel as if your job security is threatened, especially in this day and age.

That said, I’ve been a corporate manager my entire career. I read the OP several times, and imagined that I am not reading about a church affiliated organization, but rather a corporate setting. This seems like big company HR playbook 101 for downsizing “on the cheap” (and I’ve regrettably seen it many times). Rather than have to sever people and incur expense, let’s dig up some dirt and get rid of em the old fashioned way.

Are there any overt signs that the agency is being scaled back? Hiring freezes? Budget cuts?

A 30 yr old thesis? How in the world? And who doesn’t change their views as they get older? Do your views make you a criminal? Unable to perform your job duties? If we put that much value on things that happened 30 yrs ago, we’d never elect anyone President in this country (among other possible examples).

Again, I hope I’m wrong (I’m not one for conspiracy theories), and I hope you’re OK - but be careful!

 

[socialcath101]

I haven’t been able to read thru this whole thread, which seems to have strayed a bit, so pray forgiveness for jumping back to the OP.

I was moved by your situation, and hope you are OK. It;s never a good thing to feel as if your job security is threatened, especially in this day and age.

That said, I’ve been a corporate manager my entire career. I read the OP several times, and imagined that I am not reading about a church affiliated organization, but rather a corporate setting. This seems like big company HR playbook 101 for downsizing “on the cheap” (and I’ve regrettably seen it many times). Rather than have to sever people and incur expense, let’s dig up some dirt and get rid of em the old fashioned way.

Are there any overt signs that the agency is being scaled back? Hiring freezes? Budget cuts?

A 30 yr old thesis? How in the world? And who doesn’t change their views as they get older? Do your views make you a criminal? Unable to perform your job duties? If we put that much value on things that happened 30 yrs ago, we’d never elect anyone President in this country (among other possible examples).

Again, I hope I’m wrong (I’m not one for conspiracy theories), and I hope you’re OK - but be careful!

LOL don’t worry everything was solved

 

[ByzCathCantor]

LOL don’t worry everything was solved

Praise be! :harp:

I guess I missed the punch line, but glad you are OK. You are to be commended for your work and vocation!

 

[socialcath101]

Praise be! :harp:

I guess I missed the punch line, but glad you are OK. You are to be commended for your work and vocation!

Hopefully an appropriate arrangement can be made so both an ordinary mass and a latin mass can be said

 

[JReducation]

Because all public liturgy in a diocese is under the authority of the bishop. Not just because a priest has faculties means he can just say Mass anytime, anywhere. Even religious orders who are in a diocese but obviously not under the Local Ordinary would need his permission to celebrate public Mass. They can have as many private Masses as they want in their chapels for their community, but once they open their doors to the public then the bishop has a say on those specific Masses.

Actually, no. If the mass is celebrated in a private chapel, be it that of a religious house or institution belonging to a religious order, the jurisdiction is that of the superior, not the bishop, even if the laity is allowed to attend. The person allowing the laity to attend is the superior, not the bishop. Therefore, the competent superior is the highest authority. This has been tried and tested in Catholic schools owned by male religious. The ruling is that the bishop does not have authority. The bishop has authority only in chapels and churches that belong to the diocese. However, a superior cannot grant permission to anyone who is impeded by Canon Law.

To the best of my knowledge, the one situation that called most attention to itself was at Franciscan University when the Guardian of the house did not grant permission to celebrate the EF at university chapels, which are open to the students, faculty, family and friends. The group requesting the EF appealed to the bishop. They were told that the Franciscans had the final word, not the bishop. They were referred back to the Franciscan superior to deal with him. The last I heard, they had reached some kind of agreement on this. That was about two years ago. Whatever they agreed on must have made everyone happy, because the issue died out.

There is law that a bishop can use, but it would not apply in this case. If the bishop deems that an institution is not Catholic, he has the authority to take away the privilege of calling itself Catholic. In that case, he can prohibit the celebration of masses in that chapel and the reservation of the Blessed Sacrament.

But this is a straightforward case of an organization that is not in trouble and a priest who is in good standing. Everyone talks and a solution has been found that will help Father become excited about his assignment. That’s all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html

Your point?

I believe that the point that the Holy Father is making is that those priests who belong to the Ecclesia Dei communities, such as the FSSP, cannot refuse to celebrate the OF as a matter of principle. In other words, they must agree to celebrate both forms to show the unity between the forms and the unity of the Church and as he says in the letter, the Mass of Pau VI continues to be the norm in the Latin Church. It would be inconsistent to say that one is a Latin Catholic while refusing to celebrate the normal form of the Roman Rite.

Again, that’s not the issue in this situation. The issue is to help Father feel at home in his assignment and the OP seems to have managed that very well.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[socialcath101]

I believe that the point that the Holy Father is making is that those priests who belong to the Ecclesia Dei communities, such as the FSSP, cannot refuse to celebrate the OF as a matter of principle. In other words, they must agree to celebrate both forms to show the unity between the forms and the unity of the Church and as he says in the letter, the Mass of Pau VI continues to be the norm in the Latin Church. It would be inconsistent to say that one is a Latin Catholic while refusing to celebrate the normal form of the Roman Rite.

Again, that’s not the issue in this situation. The issue is to help Father feel at home in his assignment and the OP seems to have managed that very well.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[markomalley]

Oh I was involved with liberation theology which has marxist undertones… Catholic worker movement is anarchism; I have heard of the movement but I knew nothing of the founder…

Generally they’re two separate movements… Catholic workers seek the abolition of the state…

Liberation theologists don’t… They seek massive expansion of the state as in communism type thing…

I’m against both liberation theology and the Catholic Worker movement… Lib theo is marxism which is condemned and catholic workers are anarchists who are also condemned (although I understand Catholic workers themselves are not just anarchism is condemned)…

So I don’t really like either … Sorry Wish I could help… It seems like an interesting document…

The document provides a bit of a different framework toward social doctrine than is the norm as seen. She has an interesting take on the spiritual impact of government assistance than is the norm for most social workers. She talks about its spiritual cost to the recipients and society at large. I think her insights are very valuable.

When I posted that link, I hadn’t read that you and Father Carter had sorted it all out over the phone and that the problem was resolved (else I wouldn’t have wasted my time posting that link). I guess I should have read the down-thread posts a little more closely than I did

The point being is that if Father Carter continues to show an issue with your office’s actions (vice with you personally), you might want to keep that column as a reference.

 

[socialcath101]

The document provides a bit of a different framework toward social doctrine than is the norm as seen. She has an interesting take on the spiritual impact of government assistance than is the norm for most social workers. She talks about its spiritual cost to the recipients and society at large. I think her insights are very valuable.

When I posted that link, I hadn’t read that you and Father Carter had sorted it all out over the phone and that the problem was resolved (else I wouldn’t have wasted my time posting that link). I guess I should have read the down-thread posts a little more closely than I did

The point being is that if Father Carter continues to show an issue with your office’s actions (vice with you personally), you might want to keep that column as a reference.

No everything is good now!

 

[Denise1957]

His name is Father Carter and we’re going to try to get him diocesan permission to do daily mass in the chapel at our agency.

Right now they only do the English mass at our chapel…

But I suggested to make Father Carter more comfortable that he do a latin mass to make him feel more at home with his assignment…

The current priest assigned to the chapel is very supportive of the idea… Prayers that we get permission to to do this

So, this Fr. Carter is an FSSP priest? It’s highly unusual for an FSSP priest to not be given an assignment from an FSSP superior. Actually, I’ve never heard of an FSSP priest in the circumstance you’ve mentioned, as there aren’t enough of them available as it is, to fill assignments needed in parishes to celebrate the EF.

 

[JReducation]

So, this Fr. Carter is an FSSP priest? It’s highly unusual for an FSSP priest to not be given an assignment from an FSSP superior. Actually, I’ve never heard of an FSSP priest in the circumstance you’ve mentioned, as there aren’t enough of them available as it is, to fill assignments needed in parishes to celebrate the EF.

The superior makes the assignment after responding to the request of a bishop. That’s the way it works for religious and for societies. What is happening with many societies is that they are replacing the religious, because religious are returning to their particular work and to life in community. With religious leaving these slots open, societies like the FSSP, Maryknoll, Vincentians, etc, are being invited to fill them. It’s up to the superior to take the slot or not.

What can happen with a society is that it may have one or two priests more than it can place in parishes. The society has to find a place to assign them.

To the man in the pew this may be simple. The parish is big and can use three priests. To the superior of the society, it’s not so simple. The parish is big, but it will only pay for two salaries. The superior has no control over the budget of the parish or the regulations of the diocese. He accepts the parish as is.

These men may belong to the FSSP, Vincentians, Maryknoll or some other society, but they remain secular men. They must be paid a salary and benefits. Otherwise, how do they eat?

Religious don’t have to worry about this, because they don’t get paid. Everyone shares whatever comes in. They can place 20 in a parish made for three. The bishop does not care as long as they do not draw 20 salaries from the parish collection, because that would drain the parish. I know one religious house that’s attached to a parish that has 45 men and parish pays for three. The rest of the income comes from other sources.

That’s how you can end up with a society priest in an apostolate that is outside of their usual. There is a vacancy and there is a man who needs a job. It’s a perfect match. The superior takes it. Once he accepts it, the man is subject to the lawful authorities of the agency. That’s part of the agreement. Superiors and dioceses work these things out, but the laity is not informed of the details. They have no need to know. We all know what they say about too many cooks in the kitchen.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Denise1957]

The superior makes the assignment after responding to the request of a bishop. That’s the way it works for religious and for societies. What is happening with many societies is that they are replacing the religious, because religious are returning to their particular work and to life in community. With religious leaving these slots open, societies like the FSSP, Maryknoll, Vincentians, etc, are being invited to fill them. It’s up to the superior to take the slot or not.

What can happen with a society is that it may have one or two priests more than it can place in parishes. The society has to find a place to assign them.

To the man in the pew this may be simple. The parish is big and can use three priests. To the superior of the society, it’s not so simple. The parish is big, but it will only pay for two salaries. The superior has no control over the budget of the parish or the regulations of the diocese. He accepts the parish as is.

These men may belong to the FSSP, Vincentians, Maryknoll or some other society, but they remain secular men. They must be paid a salary and benefits. Otherwise, how do they eat?

Religious don’t have to worry about this, because they don’t get paid. Everyone shares whatever comes in. They can place 20 in a parish made for three. The bishop does not care as long as they do not draw 20 salaries from the parish collection, because that would drain the parish. I know one religious house that’s attached to a parish that has 45 men and parish pays for three. The rest of the income comes from other sources.

That’s how you can end up with a society priest in an apostolate that is outside of their usual. There is a vacancy and there is a man who needs a job. It’s a perfect match. The superior takes it. Once he accepts it, the man is subject to the lawful authorities of the agency. That’s part of the agreement. Superiors and dioceses work these things out, but the laity is not informed of the details. They have no need to know. We all know what they say about too many cooks in the kitchen.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Nope, that’s not how the FSSP works.

 

[JReducation]

Nope, that’s not how the FSSP works.

Hey, I’m giving you what is the normal procedure for assigning. If the FSSP has its own procedure and you’re privy to it, then help us out here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Denise1957]

Hey, I’m giving you what is the normal procedure for assigning. If the FSSP has its own procedure and you’re privy to it, then help us out here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

So, do you have an official affiliation with the FSSP, or any of the Ecclesia Dei communities?

 

[JReducation]

So, do you have an official affiliation with the FSSP, or any of the Ecclesia Dei communities?

Only indirectly. I was a major superior. The regulations of the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, the Canons for religious and secular societies, and the regulations of the Council of Major Superiors are very familiar to me. The FSSP’s major superior sits on the same council and unless there is an indult for the FSSP, then it has to follow the same protocols for assigning as any other institute either religious or secular.

That being said, there can be indults that I don’t know about. That’s why I threw the ball back at you.

If there are no exceptions from the law that apply to them, then it’s safe to assume that they follow the same process as the rest of us follow. This would leave their major superior free to negotiate contracts with bishops and other organizations as do other societies of apostolic life.

I’m not claiming that the FSSP does not have exceptions to the rules, because I have no idea. I’m saying that this is the norm for societies of apostolic life, unless they have an exception approved by the Sacred Congregation or by the Holy Father himself. If anyone knows of such an exception, they can share it. Otherwise, we always go with the side of caution and assume that they are bound to the same policies and procedures as other secular societies of apostolic life.

In a case like this, if you find an FSSP priest assigned to a Catholic agency, it’s not a big surprise, because the policies of the Sacred Congregation allow for this. It may not be what they usually do, but it’s not outside of the law either.

We have to be very careful when we deal with societies of apostolic life not to think of them as if they were religious. That’s unfair to them. They are what they are, secular priests who are ordained to the Common Table, not to obedience, which would be the case of a religious who is ordained. Therefore, when the common table cannot support them, it is the duty of the superior to find a pastoral assignment for them that will support them, unless the society has an obligation to pay them a salary and benefits out of its own budget.

Fraternally,

Br. JR,