Am I a traditional catholic? Help me figure it out!

[markomalley]

OK, dumb question from a revert - Is the CCC something we HAVE to believe? I mean, the statements in the CCC are not infallible, I guess…Does that mean we just refer to it, but don’t OBEY it? Like the statements about Islam - I think those are very misguided because it is true that Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Son of God nor was he divine - so how can that mean they worship the same God? They are mono-theistic but there the convergence ends.

Thank you.

As I said above (and as the Apostolic Constitution I quoted says), it is a STATEMENT of doctrine and is accurate, as far as it goes. It does not DEFINE doctrine. For that, you should refer to the source documents referenced in the CCC (and, in many cases, the source documents referenced earlier…particularly with Vatican II issuances).

As far as disgregarding something in the CCC, since it is an accurate STATEMENT of doctrine, please refer to Canons 749-752:

Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.
At a minimum, you are required to give those things a religious submission of the intellect and will.

As far as the statement on Muslims is concerned, you need to read it REALLY carefully so you don’t read anything into it:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

First of all, it does not say that Muslims hold the faith of Abraham. It says they profess (i.e., claim) to hold the faith of Abraham. And that’s true. They do claim to hold the faith of Abraham.

Secondly, any monotheistic religion that claims their god created the heavens and the earth worships the same God. (One God means One God) Every last little jot and tittle of their doctrine and worship may be totally wrong, but if they claim to worship the Creator and they have no gods who reign above that Creator, they are worshiping the same God. No matter how wrong they are in that worship.

The only thing the Catechism teaches is a) they worship one God, b) they acknowledge that one God is the Creator, and c) there will be a time for the final judgment. The Catechism validates NOTHING else about their beliefs.

Compare 841 to what the CCC says about the Jewish people in 839 and 840. You will read a distinctly different tone in the two sections. 839 and 840 acknowledge a lot of truth about Judaism.

Yes, it is honestly a little too “diplomatic” a language for my tastes, but it doesn’t speak falsehood…it just speaks the truth in very delicate language. Therefore, religious submission of the intellect and will is not all that difficult for me in this case.

 

[clem456]

My question started a few years ago when all of a sudden I noticed (…I know…) how we were calling Father a ‘presider’ instead of a ‘celebrant’. I questioned the parish, did some research, etc… Then all the other things started to bug me, like the hand holding, ‘affirming’ of visitors, birthdays, teen groups, etc… All the wasted energy on things like video presentations and endless announcements and 25 prayers of the faithful.12 lay ministers. All taking our minds away from why we are there. I’m sure y’all know what I’m talking about. I’m trying to decide if it is a false sense of ‘pride of intellect’ that makes me bothered by all this, or if it is something deeper, and I SHOULD be bothered by it…

At our parish we have announcements at the gathering, before Mass starts. then welcoming, then Mass starts with the opening hymn. There are no birthdays or extraneous information, just parish announcements. Most people join hands at the Lord’s Prayer. I don’t have a problem this but not everyone is comfortable with this. Those that aren’t don’t. Any sort of video presentations by the bishop or diocesan development fund are done at the closing. I agree with you sort of, the Mass should not be detracted from with temporal concerns.

Anyway, to my questions for you:

1. I don’t know Latin and have never been to a Latin mass. Would I be lost or would I be at home? Would you forgive my ignorance? Would you understand that my little ones would most likely not sit still? I love the idea of traditional catholics uniting for the mass but am intimidated by you. We have Latin mass about an hour away.
2. We do have a pope, right? I did spend a little time on ‘Fisheaters.com’ but I do not have the time (right now) to go all the way through it. I’m a little wary if ‘traditional’ means rejecting the current papacy and councils that took place in my lifetime. Please explain.
3. I was under the impression that SSPX is not good. They are not in communion with the church. Their priests are not priests. They are split away from the church. Is this correct?
4. I love the CCC and I hope you do, too. Do you find error in it?

I’m sure I have more as the replys pour in. Thanks.

The Mass is the Mass in any language. If you are attending a Mass in Chinese it doesn’t matter. Still the Mass. People get caught up in political and cultural issues that have no relevance to the Mass. We have parishioners that will not attend our Holy Thursday bilingual Spanish-English Mass because they have certain ideas about immigration and cultural assimilation which have nothing to do with the Mass. Many people latch on to the Latin Mass as “the way it used to be and should be”. Why Latin? If you want original and authentic, Aramaic is the language. If you want universal, English is the universal language. Latin is beautiful and lends itself especially well to sung liturgy, it is a huge part of the cultural context the Church is immersed in, but saying the Mass in Latin does not convey any more grace or somehow validate the sacrifice of the altar more effectively than any other language.

Take the time to read Vatican 2. It is an effort and can be difficult reading but it’s well worth the effort. The Council teaching was widely misinterpreted and led to, for lack of a better term,“liberal abuses”. Because of this many peole believe Vatican 2 watered down Church doctrine. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of these issues on both extremes are due to undisciplined and superficial reading of the documents. A good book by JP2, who is one of the primary authors of Vatican 2, is “Sources of Renewal, Implementation of Vatican 2”. The book is hard to find and is not easy reading, but is a good explanation of how it should be implemented. Vatican 2 is authoritative Church teachinig.

I’m not up on the latest ruilngs on SSPX, but I thought they were not in communion. Stick with the Church’s specific teaching,you can’t go wrong.

 

[floresco]

1. I don’t know Latin and have never been to a Latin mass. Would I be lost or would I be at home? Would you forgive my ignorance? Would you understand that my little ones would most likely not sit still? I love the idea of traditional catholics uniting for the mass but am intimidated by you. We have Latin mass about an hour away.
2. We do have a pope, right? I did spend a little time on ‘Fisheaters.com’ but I do not have the time (right now) to go all the way through it. I’m a little wary if ‘traditional’ means rejecting the current papacy and councils that took place in my lifetime. Please explain.
3. I was under the impression that SSPX is not good. They are not in communion with the church. Their priests are not priests. They are split away from the church. Is this correct?
4. I love the CCC and I hope you do, too. Do you find error in it?

I’m sure I have more as the replys pour in. Thanks.

1. I consider myself a traditional Catholic. I have no problem with people who are new to the traditional Latin Mass, i.e. the Extraordinary Form, or with children attending it.
2. I accept Pope Benedict XVI as the earthly head of the Church and strive to love and obey him.
3. The SSPX has validly ordained Catholic priests who celebrate valid Catholic Mass. Their canonical situation is not regular but they have many legitimate concerns. It is pretty complicated and I recommend withholding judgment until you have investigated carefully.
4. The APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION FIDEI DEPOSITUM says: ** The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
   The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes. **

Therefore I accept it as an authentic reference text and a sure norm for doctrine. However, sometimes I find other sources are more clear or helpful.