Am I an anti-semite?

  • Thread starter Thread starter corvidae
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

corvidae

Guest

Anti-Semitism of the “Church Fathers”​

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.

“Epistle of Barnabas” Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.
 
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the “greatest” of church fathers; known as “The Golden Mouthed.” A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corvidae
Some of that is anti-semitic, but a great deal more seems to be wishing they would convert, and bemoning the punishments God gave them for not accepting Jesus.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From “The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism” by Malcolm Hay

St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

Peter the Venerable – known as “the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity”

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

From “The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism” by Malcolm Hay

Some of that is anti-semitic, but a great deal more seems to be wishing they would convert, and bemoning the punishments God gave them for not accepting Jesus.
quote from corvidae
No all it is. All their statements are hateful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corvidae

Augustine is asking for God to either slay them, or have them turn from themselves and live for Him.

That’s excatly what religous Jews do–live for God, your statement itself is anti-semitic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corvidae

The earliest fathers you quote keep saying that Christians are not Jews, but some Jews are Christians. They go on to say that the Covenant of God is with the Christians.

Shows just how wrong they are. Find for me the New Covenant in Scripture and to whom it is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corvidae
That is not anti-semitism any more than someone who does not believe in Christ saying so is anti-christianity.

Your statement shows your own anti-semitism and lack of Biblical knowledge.

Please help me out, I have not ever been called anti anyone and it hurts to be called such. I want to know if I need to change my ideas or what to do. Any advice would be helpful

A lone Raven
 
No I was giving background,
I just didn’t realize how much background I gave

I want to know whether I am an anti-semite for defending the Church fathers, because the person I am arguing with claims that I am an anti-semite and ignorant of the bible.

I wanted to go to a more civilized forum to see if I am.
I do not want to be, and if I am, I need to change something.

A lone Raven
 
No. The Church is not anti-semetic. The Church is the fullness of the prophecy of Israel. Instructing people that there is more to be found than they have is not hate, it is the fullness of love.
 
corvidae said:
No I was giving background,
I just didn’t realize how much background I gave

I want to know whether I am an anti-semite for defending the Church fathers, because the person I am arguing with claims that I am an anti-semite and ignorant of the bible.

I wanted to go to a more civilized forum to see if I am.
I do not want to be, and if I am, I need to change something.

A lone Raven
Click to expand...
That is a serious charge. I would have asked them to back up their allegation.

I cant believe you were called this. You are even trying to be scupulous by checking with others here!

I’m sorry for you that someone would do that to you.
 
I’ve never heard this charge before. It sounds to me like whoever it is is simply trying to discredit the Fathers because they are supposedly anti-Semitic. Most of the quotes seem to evidence more of the Fathers unanimity toward Christianity rather than Judaism. Others are taken out of context completely, still others seem modified in order to further discredit the Fathers (Eg. St. Augustine’s Confessions: there is no mention of the Jews in that particular passage.)

Purusing the book quoted may be useful. I’ve never heard of the author and at the moment can’t find much about him. If I do, I’ll post it.
 
corvidae said:

Anti-Semitism of the “Church Fathers”​

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.

“Epistle of Barnabas” Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.
Click to expand...
St Ignatious was born in Syria, doesn’t that make him a Semite?
 
I suppose that would make him semitic. However, the term anti-semitic has come to mean only anti-jewish. So I suppose I cannot use that arguement. It is a good one though.

A lone Raven
 
The charge of “racism” goes up pretty fast these days. Let’s evaluate it for a minute. Saying that Jews need to accept Christ, saying they require baptism, saying that, quite frankly, they are on the wrong path. This is basically what Church fathers have said.

Jesus was born a Jew. He preached to the Jews. His Apostles were Jews. And yet, there are Jews who deny not only that Jesus is God incarnate, but that he even fulfills the Messianic Promise.

Anti-semitism, on the other hand, would be a disdain for Jews because you hate Jews. The Nazis were anti-semitic, the KKK is anti-semitic. They disdain an ethnicity, they hate a bloodline of people.

The former stems from a love for all mankind, in particular the Jews, and a desire to have them reach completion by accepting Jesus. The latter, on the other hand, is bigotry.

Now, in your example, where the line of anti-semitism would be drawn, would be if you said that Jews, even after accepting Jesus, still deserved punishment for killing the Christ…then you are probably crossing the line into anti-semitism.
 
I have no idea whether you are an anti-semite or not. I would guess no. You posted some quotes that I view as antisemetic. Certainly, if any church official said them today there would be an uproar. I guess that as a Christain, you have to accept the fact that the “fathers of the church” (right term?) were human and expressed their own prejudices in their writings at the time. Most of those statements don’t really address issues of Christanity, but rather criticisms of Judaism, which one does not, I assume, have to believe in order to follow the other doctrinal teachings of the Church or even those individual writers.
 
I agreed that some of the quotes were anti-semitic, and I know some of them are.

I did defend some of them saying it sounded like they wanted Jews to by Christians.

I am glad that at least it is not overtly anti-semitic.

And you are correct in your assertion that Church fathers personal feelings could come into their writings. That is why we look at as much as we can get before we say what we believe the early church taught.

Thanks Valke, I really appreciate it

A lone Raven
 
I don’t see anything wrong with most of those quotes…except the one by “Peter the Venerable”…the “non-human monster” thing seems a little harsh, though probably taken out of context (because many Saints referred to sinners and Popes and especially themselves in such harsh terms).

The Jews who remain today, are the one’s who set up a parallel religion to the proper continuation of Judaism (namely, Christianity). They are the philosophical descendents of those who rejected Jesus, and so are no longer born in really much of a “special” relationship.

Sort of like Original Sin: a baby is not personally guilty of anything, but his First Parents lost God’s favor…and so they are born out of grace.

If a husband and wife choose to leave Utopia and move to, say, Detroit…then it is not a “punishment” on the baby that he is born in Detroit instead of Utopia. He had no right to Utopia in the first place…and it is only natural that you will be born where your parents are.

Jews are now no longer born into the chosen community, just like humans are no longer born in the Garden. But both can return to God’s favor through Baptism and accepting Christ.
 
batteddy said:
I don’t see anything wrong with most of those quotes…except the one by “Peter the Venerable”…the “non-human monster” thing seems a little harsh, though probably taken out of context (because many Saints referred to sinners and Popes and especially themselves in such harsh terms).

The Jews who remain today, are the one’s who set up a parallel religion to the proper continuation of Judaism (namely, Christianity). They are the philosophical descendents of those who rejected Jesus, and so are no longer born in really much of a “special” relationship.

Sort of like Original Sin: a baby is not personally guilty of anything, but his First Parents lost God’s favor…and so they are born out of grace.

If a husband and wife choose to leave Utopia and move to, say, Detroit…then it is not a “punishment” on the baby that he is born in Detroit instead of Utopia. He had no right to Utopia in the first place…and it is only natural that you will be born where your parents are.

Jews are now no longer born into the chosen community, just like humans are no longer born in the Garden. But both can return to God’s favor through Baptism and accepting Christ.
Click to expand...
This post is like a word search for offensive terms about jews.
 
Treating Jews like any other human beings (and since Christ, that’s all they are…human beings like any others) is not anti-semitic.

There is to be no special pleading. They will not be granted special status. That’s that. Dispensationalist fundamentalists want it to be true. But it’s not.
 
I do not think we can assert that the descendents of those who rejected Jesus rejected Jesus any more than the rest of us.

We are not responsible for our parents or grandparents actions, but rather, for our own.

I believe the Jews still have a special relationship with God, for God made a covenant with the people, not with individuals. I simply believe that the covenant comes to fulfillment is Jesus.

That is my theological viewpoint.

I am saying they do not have the fullness of truth just as I would claim protestants do not have the fullness of truth. They have not been rejected by God, they believe what the believe is the fullness of truth about God.

Basically, I am saying they are just like anyone else, who needs God to work in their lives. If they are lead by God, or by a person God uses to the Church, more power to them, but they should not specifically be targeted.

A lone Raven
 
I do not think we can assert that the descendents of those who rejected Jesus rejected Jesus any more than the rest of us.
Click to expand...
No. And we didn’t reject God. But we still inherit the consequences of Adam and Eve rejecting him.

They left the Garden, and so their descendents are no longer born there. It’s just the natural way of things. But we can bring our souls back to the Garden (and our bodies at the end of time) if we are baptized.

Well, the Jews used to be born into a special people. But since their ancestors left the City of God, they are no longer born inside its walls…and like anyone, must enter again through baptism.

They are now like anyone else, the sort of sad thing is that for them…this is a step down.

As for targetting them specifically for conversion…I’d say yes and no. No, obviously, inasmuch as they are like anyone else and we desire to save ALL souls. But yes inasmuch as they share a common religious background and Revelation in the Old Testament and so should be easier to show the logic of Christ because their paradigm is somewhat shared with us.
 
batteddy said:
No. And we didn’t reject God. But we still inherit the consequences of Adam and Eve rejecting him.

They left the Garden, and so their descendents are no longer born there. It’s just the natural way of things. But we can bring our souls back to the Garden (and our bodies at the end of time) if we are baptized.

Well, the Jews used to be born into a special people. But since their ancestors left the City of God, they are no longer born inside its walls…and like anyone, must enter again through baptism.

They are now like anyone else, the sort of sad thing is that for them…this is a step down.

As for targetting them specifically for conversion…I’d say yes and no. No, obviously, inasmuch as they are like anyone else and we desire to save ALL souls. But yes inasmuch as they share a common religious background and Revelation in the Old Testament and so should be easier to show the logic of Christ because their paradigm is somewhat shared with us.
Click to expand...
There is no shared paradigm when it comes to Jesus and Judasim. If it were easier to show Jews the logic of Christ, I think it would have been done by now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top