Am I being unreasonable?

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I am engaged and my fiance has a fairly new female friend. She did us a favor by watching his kids while we were out and when she had to leave, he gave her a big hug and a kiss on the cheek. I didn’t like it. He was upset with me for being mad and seems to think he’s just showing a friend affection and I think it’s not appropriate as an engaged man.

In all honesty, my jealousy issue also stems from a previous relationship before I was even attempting to go to any church. My fiance is Catholic and I am attending the RCIA classes in the church we go to. I sometimes see similarities to the man that cheated and before he and I decided to get married, he was doubtful about marriage and me and I caught him having inappropriate conversations with other women. I probably wouldn’t think much of the cheek kiss without him already being inappropriate with the others. I am doubting marrying at this point. I want to but I am afraid of making a mistake in doing so and end up being made a fool of.

I thought maybe getting some insight from other Catholics could maybe help me explain myself better without getting into a fight about it.
 
Kiwiruckle said:
I am engaged and my fiance has a fairly new female friend. She did us a favor by watching his kids while we were out and when she had to leave, he gave her a big hug and a kiss on the cheek. I didn’t like it. He was upset with me for being mad and seems to think he’s just showing a friend affection and I think it’s not appropriate as an engaged man.

In all honesty, my jealousy issue also stems from a previous relationship before I was even attempting to go to any church. My fiance is Catholic and I am attending the RCIA classes in the church we go to. I sometimes see similarities to the man that cheated and before he and I decided to get married, he was doubtful about marriage and me and I caught him having inappropriate conversations with other women. I probably wouldn’t think much of the cheek kiss without him already being inappropriate with the others. I am doubting marrying at this point. I want to but I am afraid of making a mistake in doing so and end up being made a fool of.

I thought maybe getting some insight from other Catholics could maybe help me explain myself better without getting into a fight about it.
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Just to clarify, is “man who cheated” your fiance?
 
No. The one that cheated was the previous relationship many years ago.
 
Dear Kiwi,
I don’t think you are being unreasonable. I think you should take it slow, don’t get married until you are sure this is the right thing for you.
Your goal during your engagement should be to make sure that marriage to this person is right for both of you. Whether or not your feelings are unreasonable, he should be avoiding any behavior that makes you uncomfortable. Don’t you try to avoid doing things that make him feel bad?
A big kiss and hug to a relatively new acquaintance doesn’t seem appropriate to me. Of course you may live in an area where this is normal conduct, there are places like that. In my circles, people may hug, but only women kiss each other.
He has kids – from a previous marriage? Do you know why it ended? Have you chatted with his previous wife? I would sure do that. If he was married in a Catholic church, has he sought an annulment? I don’t mean to be nosy, but these are all concerns the second time around.
There are far worse things than living alone, and one of them is being married to the wrong person.
God bless.
 
How new is “fairly new” exactly? If very recent, then I would be upset as well. I don’t think you’re wrong for feeling upset; feelings are feelings. But did he perhaps grow up in an overtly affectionate family? If so, it really might be considered normal for him.

Either way, talk to him about it. I hope that, if he truly understands how this is bothersome to you, he will be open to discussing this with you. You’re planning on marrying this man. If you and/or he don’t feel comfortable enough to discuss something that is giving you serious doubts about marriage, then it might be a sign to wait anyway. If he loves you, he will try to understand and give you time; at least he should be willing to discuss and compromise.

I don’t believe he will lose much in having to hold back kissing another woman, for whatever reason, when considering the feelings of the woman he plans on marrying. However, you mentioned that perhaps you wouldn’t be as bothered if not for your previous experience. It’s good that you recognize your own feelings. Talk to him and allow him the opportunity to reassure you as well, because as I mentioned, he might just be the huggy type. It is a chance to strengthen your relationship in any case.

Ask him to sit down and talk to you. Don’t just briefly mention it when doing another activity. By taking time aside to talk about it and setting the mood, he should get that this is important to you. Talk calmly about your feelings and thoughts to him, without accusations and see how he responds.

You’ll be in my prayers.
 
Your original post is a little confusing, then, because it sounds like all the bad stuff is something the current man is doing. Can you describe what your fiance is like without referring to the old boyfriend, so that we can understand him better?

I will say that I think when a man is told something upsets you it is more appropriate for him to try to be understanding than to get upset with you. Sometimes people just get upset at a loved one being mad at them, though. Hopefully, he got over that. It is important that a spouse attempts to understand when you are mad or don’t like something he does and honors your wishes. In my opinion, he is being unreasonable if he says he will continue when he knows it will bother you, no matter what it is that has made you mad. I can’t tell if he has done that.

As far as the hug goes, since she is a fairly new friend I think it is inappriopriate. An old friend, that is easier to accept. Hugging an old friend would be okay with me, but never the kiss on the cheek. Doesn’t matter what he thinks of it, the woman recieving it can misunderstand. A good rule of thumb for me is if it is something you would not do to another guy, don’t do it. I doubt he would kiss a man’s cheek during a hug.

Try not to judge him by the actions of others. Also, trust yourself to have made a good choice this time, if he has never done anything like the other guy.
 
Viki63 said:
Dear Kiwi,
I don’t think you are being unreasonable. I think you should take it slow, don’t get married until you are sure this is the right thing for you.
Your goal during your engagement should be to make sure that marriage to this person is right for both of you. Whether or not your feelings are unreasonable, he should be avoiding any behavior that makes you uncomfortable. Don’t you try to avoid doing things that make him feel bad?
A big kiss and hug to a relatively new acquaintance doesn’t seem appropriate to me. Of course you may live in an area where this is normal conduct, there are places like that. In my circles, people may hug, but only women kiss each other.
He has kids – from a previous marriage? Do you know why it ended? Have you chatted with his previous wife? I would sure do that. If he was married in a Catholic church, has he sought an annulment? I don’t mean to be nosy, but these are all concerns the second time around.
There are far worse things than living alone, and one of them is being married to the wrong person.
God bless.
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He has two previous marriages. I have none. His other marriages were not done in the church. He was a non-practicing Catholic that hadn’t been to church in years when we met. I had gone to a Catholic school when I was young even though I was not Catholic. Last Christmas I took his to the midnight Mass on Christmas Eve at my old school because I thought he would like the church and he had talked about being Catholic. Doing that prompted him to return to the church and try to bring up the kids in the church also. (I find it funny that as a non-Catholic, I pushed him back into the church)

His marriages were both ended due to the women repeatedly cheating on him. I have met the first ex wife and even though we haven’t really discussed him that way, I can see that they are polar opposites and just made a poor choice to marry. The second one was even worse. She hasn’t even seen their kids since a year before I met him. She violated their vows in every possible way. He stuck it out for many years but it was also a huge mistake.

I used to be in a hurry and ready to just do it, but I am thinking that we should go through the marriage prep and possibly pre-marital counseling and pray about it. I am finding myself no longer in a hurry even though the kids with the mom that abandoned them are starting to call me mom. I don’t want to make a mistake even though the kids are wanting me there.

As for the cheek kissing thing, I have only met like two of his friends and never noticed if he did it before. He hasn’t had anyone around because he is busy raising all these kids himself and started making new friends starting massage therapy school in September. He is a disabled vet so he has no job. So this woman already is in class with him from 8-noon Monday through Friday. We hardly have a real dating life due to the kids and so I am already jealous that they have mostly kid-free time. He has few friends so he acts like I am being petty because I don’t like the fact that his friends are female. He doesn’t make male friends easily.
 
And to clarify…my previous relationship cheated.

My new one is the one I caught having discussions with other women back when he was having doubts about us getting married. All of this came to a head in September when he started school. He had a crush on a woman there but ended the friendship when I asked. Then, he had a text conversation with his youngest child’s mother (they never married) that he had talked dirty with basically. Then I caught him doing that with a stranger also. After the one with the youngest’s mother, he swore he would never hurt me like that again and then I found the other conversation with a stranger. I don’t think he would actually go through the physical act of cheating, but this has seriously damaged my trust and he doesn’t seem to get that. If I bring that up, I am throwing it in his face and I am merely trying to explain why his friendship makes me uncomfortable. The trouble only started in September, we had a full year of barely fighting. So when he almost lost me on that last incident, he make a total turnaround in his view of marrying me. He doesn’t want to lose me…blah, blah, blah…but he seems to think I should be over it and trust him because we’re engaged.
 
I have two thoughts. On the cheek kissing, I was originally thinking yes it was probably an overreaction. I have several female friends whom I will include a kiss on the cheek with when hugging. It has no romantic intention at all. In fact, these are girls I’ve either been friends with for so long that any thought of romance is completely foreign, already married friends, family, or friends I have absolutely no physical attraction towards. What I’m saying is, the only girls I would feel comfortable including a kiss on the cheek with, are the very girls that are the least to be worried about. The kiss isn’t weird b/c it is completely void of even the possibility of romance or inappropriate affection. So if your fiance is one to include cheek kisses, I wouldn’t be concerned about it.

However… the texting issues you mentioned are a HUGE problem. Little virtues lead to bigger virtues and little vices lead to bigger vices. A man who is willing to cheat on you through dirty texting with other women isn’t far from cheating on you physically with them. There is also such a thing as emotional infidelity and your fiance is certainly guilty of that. Even if I had the ability to give a second chance to a girlfriend that was doing such things, certainly the second time it happened would end that relationship for good. It sounds to me that your picking up on things that could be totally innocent (the cheek kissing) and they’re really bothering you because there is that underlying lack of trust that is manifesting itself through these other situations (and rightly so). I think you do not trust him, but that you have a very legitimate reason for not, and so I would be very leery to enter into a marriage under these circumstances. Granted, I’m a guy on the internet with very little intimate knowledge of the situation, so take that advice with a grain of salt. But there’s a stranger’s opinion anyways…
 
If you have any doubts, step back, take a breath, and think about it. You may not be ready for marriage with this person. Sounds like this may not be “the one”. God bless.
 
I don’t think you’re being unreasonable.
Listen to your doubts. If this man tends to these ways of unfaithfulness now, the more is that likely when you are in the routine of marriage. If he really loved and respected you, he wouldn’t act as you describe with other women.

You think he wouldn’t go through with the physical act of cheating even though he is already cheating in the mind and heart. Talking dirty with other women! I’d be very sad if my daughter became involved with a man such as he behaves. Whether or not he acts upon it, according to Jesus it is sinful Matthew 5:27-28
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
It’s not harmless what this man is doing. It’s against the sixth commandment of God to think and speak in a 'dirty manner" to these women you caught him communicating in this way, so it isn’t a light matter and you’re not being unreasonable.
God bless and guide you.
 
Ok, hold on. He was married twice, but his youngest child is to a woman he never married?? Run, don’t walk, away from this. He clearly has issues with commitment, how to treat women, etc.

Your first post had me thinking “yep, she is over reacting”. My husband & I both have opposite sex friends we would hug and/or kiss on the cheek. We are both ok with that.

But then you expanded on the history. He sounds like someone who also has issues with being alone. He was dating you, but texting “dirty” with others? I don’t care if it wasn’t physical, that was cheating. He has shown you who he is. Either accept that you will always have doubts with him, or move on.

Just my $.02
 
Kiwiruckle said:
And to clarify…my previous relationship cheated.

My new one is the one I caught having discussions with other women back when he was having doubts about us getting married. All of this came to a head in September when he started school. He had a crush on a woman there but ended the friendship when I asked. Then, he had a text conversation with his youngest child’s mother (they never married) that he had talked dirty with basically. Then I caught him doing that with a stranger also. After the one with the youngest’s mother, he swore he would never hurt me like that again and then I found the other conversation with a stranger. I don’t think he would actually go through the physical act of cheating, but this has seriously damaged my trust and he doesn’t seem to get that. If I bring that up, I am throwing it in his face and I am merely trying to explain why his friendship makes me uncomfortable. The trouble only started in September, we had a full year of barely fighting. So when he almost lost me on that last incident, he make a total turnaround in his view of marrying me. He doesn’t want to lose me…blah, blah, blah…but he seems to think I should be over it and trust him because we’re engaged.
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In my opinion he doesn’t sound like he will be faithful. I think if he didn’t have dirty conversations with other you would be unreasonable but in this case you are right to be hurt. I would take it slow and if I where in your shoes I would be done with him.
 
_Jenn said:
Ok, hold on. He was married twice, but his youngest child is to a woman he never married?? Run, don’t walk, away from this. He clearly has issues with commitment, how to treat women, etc.

Your first post had me thinking “yep, she is over reacting”. My husband & I both have opposite sex friends we would hug and/or kiss on the cheek. We are both ok with that.

But then you expanded on the history. He sounds like someone who also has issues with being alone. He was dating you, but texting “dirty” with others? I don’t care if it wasn’t physical, that was cheating. He has shown you who he is. Either accept that you will always have doubts with him, or move on.

Just my $.02
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👍 I absolutely agree. I know it’s hard to walk away, especially with children involved, but I think that you are having doubts for a reason and should listen to your instincts here. God gave us instinct for just this purpose!

I don’t know what happened in his previous marriages and neither do you. You only have what he says to go on. But you do know that since he has been with you he has cheated in his heart by having his “crush” and in his mind by having inappropriate conversations with at least one other woman. And that’s just what you know about! I’d be seriously questioning his ability to commit to a woman, his ability to remain faithful, and exactly what he did during his previous marriages. Just because his ex-wives were unfaithful pieces of work doesn’t mean he wasn’t also unfaithful.

Not to mention that after marriage there are going to be doubts and rough patches. Happens to everyone. You’ve seen how he handles having doubts. And maybe he is having doubts for a reason, too. Maybe he instinctively knows that this marriage plan is a bad idea.

I had both intellectual and instinctive doubts when I first married. Red flags left and right. I wasn’t Catholic, figured I could ignore those doubts and give it a try, could divorce if/when it didn’t work out, and that would be that. I also had a few friends and family tell me not to marry that man. I went through with the marriage and ended up going through hell and divorcing 5 years later. How I wish I would have listened to my heart, mind, instincts, and friends/family. Please don’t make the same mistakes I did.
 
Kiwiruckle said:
And to clarify…my previous relationship cheated.

My new one is the one I caught having discussions with other women back when he was having doubts about us getting married. All of this came to a head in September when he started school. He had a crush on a woman there but ended the friendship when I asked. Then, he had a text conversation with his youngest child’s mother (they never married) that he had talked dirty with basically. Then I caught him doing that with a stranger also. After the one with the youngest’s mother, he swore he would never hurt me like that again and then I found the other conversation with a stranger. I don’t think he would actually go through the physical act of cheating, but this has seriously damaged my trust and he doesn’t seem to get that. If I bring that up, I am throwing it in his face and I am merely trying to explain why his friendship makes me uncomfortable. The trouble only started in September, we had a full year of barely fighting. So when he almost lost me on that last incident, he make a total turnaround in his view of marrying me. He doesn’t want to lose me…blah, blah, blah…but he seems to think I should be over it and trust him because we’re engaged.
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Remember that he knows what it is to be cheated on, too.

You don’t like seeing him kiss other women. This doesn’t have to be about doing a thing more than that. Don’t make it more than it is, then. Just say, "It hurts my feelings when you kiss other women. I can live with the hug, but please don’t kiss them. Brothers do not kiss their sisters like that in my family, and if you’ll please treat all women not your wife likes sisters and mothers–as a good Catholic man should–I would appreciate it.

Give him a mulligan on the kiss he did not know would offend you, and work out with him what you think it means to treat other women like the daughters of the Lord he ought to treat them like. “No obscenity or silly or suggestive talk,” as the Apostle put it:

Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones, no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph. 5:3-5

Now, if in your experience brothers do actually kiss women as he did, then re-think your jealous reaction. Do not beat yourself up over it, but re-think your interpretation of what he did.
 
Trust your gut.

He needs to be supportive and not dismissive of your feelings. Lots of red flags here and, sister, these things will get worse over time.

:hug1:
 
Kiwiruckle said:
I used to be in a hurry and ready to just do it, but I am thinking that we should go through the marriage prep and possibly pre-marital counseling and pray about it. I am finding myself no longer in a hurry even though the kids with the mom that abandoned them are starting to call me mom. I don’t want to make a mistake even though the kids are wanting me there.
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Listen, do your marriage prep and pre-marriage counselling early in the piece. I have been involved with a Catholic org. that offers these services for a long time and the number of people who come to squeeze it in just before getting married is surprising and is just considered a formality once the wedding has been planned, booked and paid for.

I don’t know about what marriage prep looks like where you live but the process here is a very good one for exposing serious problems that may not otherwise get dealt with until years into marriage.

Objectively speaking, he has a truckload of baggage and being a vet, may need to be dealing with veteran related things in counselling. That may not have come to the fore in your relationship as yet and the pre=marriage prep could bring it up.

There is no skin off your nose in doing the prep way before you’ve locked yourself into a place that’s harder to back out of if necessary.
 
Kiwiruckle said:
I am engaged and my fiance has a fairly new female friend. She did us a favor by watching his kids while we were out and when she had to leave, he gave her a big hug and a kiss on the cheek. I didn’t like it. He was upset with me for being mad and seems to think he’s just showing a friend affection and I think it’s not appropriate as an engaged man.

In all honesty, my jealousy issue also stems from a previous relationship before I was even attempting to go to any church. My fiance is Catholic and I am attending the RCIA classes in the church we go to. I sometimes see similarities to the man that cheated and before he and I decided to get married, he was doubtful about marriage and me and I caught him having inappropriate conversations with other women. I probably wouldn’t think much of the cheek kiss without him already being inappropriate with the others. I am doubting marrying at this point. I want to but I am afraid of making a mistake in doing so and end up being made a fool of.

I thought maybe getting some insight from other Catholics could maybe help me explain myself better without getting into a fight about it.
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I wouldn’t like it either for the record.
 
Thank you to everyone that has replied. Writing it out makes it really sound bad doesn’t it? I think I am just going to slow it down and do the marriage prep and insist on us getting counseling. I am going to give it some time to see if there is another incident and if we were to rush into things, I feel like would be a huge mistake. I think I mainly stayed around because of the kids. They have been through a lot and I don’t want them to be hurt, but I still have to look out for myself too. I only plan on being married once and I want to do it right and he claims he does too. So, if he really means that then he should have no problem taking the time to do so and he should also consider my feelings about how affectionate he is with his friends. I think that’s the part that blew my mind…he knows how much pain his actions have caused and yet still didn’t think anything of kissing her on the cheek right in front of me after just the past weekend, me getting upset that they text all the time.
 
MJJean said:
👍 I absolutely agree. I know it’s hard to walk away, especially with children involved, but I think that you are having doubts for a reason and should listen to your instincts here. God gave us instinct for just this purpose!

I don’t know what happened in his previous marriages and neither do you. You only have what he says to go on. But you do know that since he has been with you he has cheated in his heart by having his “crush” and in his mind by having inappropriate conversations with at least one other woman. And that’s just what you know about! I’d be seriously questioning his ability to commit to a woman, his ability to remain faithful, and exactly what he did during his previous marriages. Just because his ex-wives were unfaithful pieces of work doesn’t mean he wasn’t also unfaithful.

Not to mention that after marriage there are going to be doubts and rough patches. Happens to everyone. You’ve seen how he handles having doubts. And maybe he is having doubts for a reason, too. Maybe he instinctively knows that this marriage plan is a bad idea.

I had both intellectual and instinctive doubts when I first married. Red flags left and right. I wasn’t Catholic, figured I could ignore those doubts and give it a try, could divorce if/when it didn’t work out, and that would be that. I also had a few friends and family tell me not to marry that man. I went through with the marriage and ended up going through hell and divorcing 5 years later. How I wish I would have listened to my heart, mind, instincts, and friends/family. Please don’t make the same mistakes I did.
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I asked him if I have managed to catch him at it every time and he said yes…so I said then obviously you aren’t very good at the lying and hiding things. My intuition is pretty strong and so I do think that I have caught him every time it’s happened. The truth ALWAYS comes out. Being cheated on previously with the other man made me not ignore those gut feelings and dig. I guess the part that really bothers me is that if I bring it up, he gets mad and says I am throwing it in his face. Well, the trouble only started in September, not like I have had more than a few months to heal and his own actions keep bringing it right back to the forefront. I have tried to move past it because of the kids and because we do tend to lift each other up instead of dragging each other down. Had we not met, I doubt we would be trying to grow our faith together. So, I am torn. I love him and I want it to work, but the doubt he caused make that hard to move past. I have tried to forgive but him getting close to this other woman (she’s married, supposedly happily, and pregnant) still makes me uncomfortable because now I seem to have turned into a jealous person.
 
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