Am I Catholic

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cvor

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Hello and good morning everyone. I am agnostic and this is my first post. I am not here to question anyone’s religious beliefs. I am seeking factual information about my current “status” in the Roman Catholic Church. Hopefully someone can inform me.

Here is my information:

Baptized in the RCC as an infant and “completed” all the sacraments (more info to follow)
Went to 12 years of Catholic School
Currently Agnostic
Reject the supernatural claims of the bible and think the Bible is innaccurate
I do not believe Jesus was God and disagree with some of his teaching while agreeing with others. The ones I do agree with have nothing to do with anything supernatural. I just agree with some of the ethical principles (which can be found in other cultures) and find some things he alledgedly said to be insightful (as many may do the same with philosphers and the like). Let’s just say, to make a long story short, that I will never practice “Christianity” or believe the supernatural claims of the Bible.

Ok…some info on my received Sacraments:

Baptized as an infant: Obviously no consent
Confirmation: I recall being around the age of 10. I remember not wanting to do it and doing it simply because my parents told me to. Kind of in the same way your parents tell you to go to school and you just do it. This was 25 years ago so the details are sketchy, but I don’t think I grasped what any of it was even about. I saw it as a requirement. I was in the Catholic school and my parents were Catholic but I was always skeptical as a child. I just went along with it because my parents gave me no real choice. I mean–I’m sure as a 10 year old I could have ran away or ran out of the Church, but I just wasn’t the type of child to do that. I was respectful of my parents and partially fearful of the consequences (my parents did not beat me but they would yell if I did something bad enough and I was fearful of that as a child). And of course, I was a child and children can’t really be held accountable. So, as I said, I completed all of the sacraments but just went through the motions.

So, my questions are:

Were these sacraments I went through “valid”? If not, does this make me not considered “Catholic” since what made me Catholic was essentially based on false pretenses and I wasn’t sincere?

Out of curiousity, if someone is baptized in the Church and never does anything else and completes no sacraments and becomes atheist and is atheist their whole life, does the Church consider them Catholic?

**Does the Church consider me currently “Catholic”? ** The last I checked they did, but I never discussed my longstanding current beliefs with them and never described me going through the sacraments in the manner described with them.

If I am still considered “Catholic” by the Church, how can I change this? Is this even possible to change?

Thank you everyone. I will be interested in your responses and if there is any supported documentation for your answers, I would be interested in reviewing it! :o)
 
Welcome to CAF! 👋

Once you are Catholic, you are always Catholic. Statistically, you are one of the 22 million+ “fallen away” (i.e. non-practicing) Catholics in the U.S. (if you live in the U.S., that is). I’m not sure about the global figures.

If you ever decided to come back to the Church, all that would be necessary is for you to go to Confession and start attending Mass again. Then, you would be a Catholic in good standing.

The sacraments you received are valid, to the best of my knowledge. I know for certain that your Baptism would be valid, as the Baptism of any infant is valid. The parents give consent on behalf of their child who cannot yet give consent on their own. But this does not mean that, if the child decides against it later on, that the sacrament is invalid. Any sacrament is either valid or not the moment it is conferred. One’s decisions after the fact do not change the validity of the sacrament.

As far as your Confirmation, I’m not as sure. If I understand you, your question is basically whether or not a sacrament is validly bestowed on an unwilling recipient. My hunch is that, at least in your case, your Confirmation is still valid, but I can’t seem to find something specific in the Code of Canon Law to back that up. I’ll let you know if I find anything more concrete later on.

But even if your Confirmation was not valid, you would still be considered a Catholic by virtue of your Baptism. Someone who has been Baptized, but not Confirmed is still Catholic, even if their initiation is not yet complete.

I’m not sure what the process would be if you no longer want the Church to consider you Catholic. You could contact your diocesan office and ask. But even if you write a formal letter to the bishop renouncing the Catholic faith, you could still (one day) simply go to Confession and you would be a Catholic in good standing again.

I guess the short answer is that, according to Catholic teaching, Baptism imparts an indelible mark on your soul. No matter what you do, that mark will always be there. That’s why we will always consider you Catholic and will pray for your return. 😉
 
Well if you don’t believe… then your not Catholic… or technically you are but… i guess you get to choose wheter you want to be part of the “religion”
although the sacraments you received were valid…
and i don’t think you would want to change it even if you could maybe one day you’ll return…

But no your not Catholic if you don’t believe… and if one day you decide to come back… well you have all the sacraments just go to confession etc… anyway yea
may i ask why are you asking these questions…
 
Welcome to the forums and thanks for posting. I’m new at this myself but I’d like to take a guess. I agree with joseph’s post regarding baptism, that it is a binding promise between you and God. I always thought of it as akin to being born into your family, which you don’t choose obviously-- no matter what legal and relational action you may take as an adult you cannot change the fact that you were ushered into this world via that particular family.

Anyway, I wonder if confirmation isn’t like marriage. A marriage can be annulled if the participants were misinformed or coerced in some way. Perhaps the same is true with confirmation, although I don’t know what the steps would be to “undo” it. What would be the point? I’m still on the roster at my old AME church because they won’t take it off the list but I know I’m Catholic now. Just like marriage, if you returned to the Church and felt your confirmation didn’t count, perhaps you could have a priest bless your confirmation?

Don’t know if that helps. This is part of why I became Catholic-- you are allowed to be Catholic and full of doubt and still have the sacraments pull you nearer to God (but you do need to have your heart turned to God in some way). How accepting! Blessings to you.

EDIT: Yeah, why are you asking these questions?
 
Thank you for the replies and warm welcome.

Sancte - My questions are strictly being asked from a Catholic Church perspective. Are you saying teh Church does not consider me Catholic or are you saying from your own opinion? Any supporting documentation and reasoning would be welcome if you are saying the Church considers me not Catholic.

Thanks!

PS- my questions are being asked out of curiousity and we are debating these on a different secular message board. A newly converted Catholic told me my baptism and confirmation is invalid. I never heard of such a thing in my 12 years of catholic education and no one has provided info to support this. My Catholic girlfriend also never heard of this. The person on the message board is essentially claiming that the sacraments were invalid and because of this I am not Catholic.
 
If I understand you correctly, then the burden of proof is on the side that denies your baptism and confirmation. Just from a more popular (rather than an official canon law) perspective, why have a “Catholics Come Home” campaign if those fallen away individuals have invalidated their baptisms with unbelief?

Even if you were baptized in most Protestant churches you’d be seen as validly baptized by the Catholic Church. My theology student husband is shouting across the room that if your confirmation was valid then it is valid now…
 
njmama said:
If I understand you correctly, then the burden of proof is on the side that denies your baptism and confirmation. Just from a more popular (rather than an official canon law) perspective, why have a “Catholics Come Home” campaign if those fallen away individuals have invalidated their baptisms with unbelief?

Even if you were baptized in most Protestant churches you’d be seen as validly baptized by the Catholic Church. My theology student husband is shouting across the room that if your confirmation was valid then it is valid now…
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Hello! :o)

I appreciate your comments and agree. Since your husband is a theology student, can you ask him my questions? Specifically, if my confirmation was only done because my parents told me to do so, is that valid? And ultimately as a result, does this make me still Catholic according to the Church?
 
It’s simple: by virtue of your baptism the Church considers you a Catholic until you officially indicate you don’t want to be one. That means that regardless of your beliefs, you are Catholic and bound by Church law.

You should be aware that although you can take official steps to ‘resign’, as it were, there seems to be no clear process that will allow you to do that. Even in countries where people are taxed according to their religion and where Catholics are known to make official declarations to the Gov’t that they are not Catholic to avoid paying said tax the Church doesn’t see that as official enough to consider them ‘non-Catholic’.
 
The sacraments place an indelible mark on your soul. Once you are baptized and/or confirmed in the Catholic Faith you are always Catholic - forever. Just because you choose to turn your back on the Truth does not mean that it suddenly vanishes like throwing bleach on a stain. It does not work that way.

Yes - you are always Catholic. Regardless of what you choose to believe or follow.

You only need to go to confession and you can again receive Holy Communion. You are always welcome to attend Mass, however, but you may not receive unless you are in a state of grace.

~Liza
 
cvor said:
Thank you for the replies and warm welcome.

Sancte - My questions are strictly being asked from a Catholic Church perspective. Are you saying teh Church does not consider me Catholic or are you saying from your own opinion? Any supporting documentation and reasoning would be welcome if you are saying the Church considers me not Catholic.

Thanks!

PS- my questions are being asked out of curiousity and we are debating these on a different secular message board. A newly converted Catholic told me my baptism and confirmation is invalid. I never heard of such a thing in my 12 years of catholic education and no one has provided info to support this. My Catholic girlfriend also never heard of this. The person on the message board is essentially claiming that the sacraments were invalid and because of this I am not Catholic.
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Whoever is telling you this on the other board doesn’t know what they are talking about. 😉

If perpetual personal consent was a necessity for the validity of Baptism, the Church would not baptize infants. And yet, the Church does baptize infants.

I was thinking along the same lines as njmama with regards to Confirmation. I know that one cannot contract a sacramental Marriage if one is coerced. I’m not sure if that general principle applies to all the sacraments or not (I have some brushing up to do on my sacramental theology, evidently ;)). And even if it does apply to all the sacraments, that does not necessarily mean that every 10 year old kid who gets indignant that their parents are “making” them get confirmed are all invalidly confirmed. The fact that one submitted enough to honor their parents’ wishes could be considered sufficient consent. But then, I’m no canon lawyer.
 
As far as “does it still make me Catholic” it wouldn’t matter (this is me, not hubby speaking); your confirmation doesn’t make you Catholic, your baptism does.

As far as Church “membership” that stands on the books unless you try to have yourself made not a Catholic. Spiritually speaking, confirmation is the time when you receive the Holy Spirit. It isn’t for the Church to judge person to person who is filled with God’s Spirit, so just because they recognize you as a Catholic because of the sacraments you received, doesn’t mean you are still in good standing with God!

Would you really expect the Church to go around and poll people “Oh, since you are an atheist and you didn’t mean your confirmation when it happened, you are not a Christian or Catholic anymore”?

So as far as validity, on the books yes because the Church leaves that in the hands of her people; but in your heart, no unless you decide to make it valid by believing. Does that make sense?
 
njmama said:
As far as “does it still make me Catholic” it wouldn’t matter (this is me, not hubby speaking); your confirmation doesn’t make you Catholic, your baptism does.

As far as Church “membership” that stands on the books unless you try to have yourself made not a Catholic. Spiritually speaking, confirmation is the time when you receive the Holy Spirit. It isn’t for the Church to judge person to person who is filled with God’s Spirit, so just because they recognize you as a Catholic because of the sacraments you received, doesn’t mean you are still in good standing with God!

Would you really expect the Church to go around and poll people “Oh, since you are an atheist and you didn’t mean your confirmation when it happened, you are not a Christian or Catholic anymore”?

So as far as validity, on the books yes because the Church leaves that in the hands of her people; but in your heart, no unless you decide to make it valid by believing. Does that make sense?
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Just to clarify (;)), we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism, too. Confirmation is a “special outpouring of the Holy Spirit” (CCC 1302), but that doesn’t mean we don’t receive the Spirit in the other sacraments as well.

It may be helpful to point out that the sacraments work on an objective level and a subjective level. (The technical theological terms for this are ex opere operato and ex opere operantis.) Basically, the sacraments work objectively to confer grace regardless of the disposition of the minister or the recipient, provided the sacrament is celebrated properly. However, the subjective disposition of the recipient can have an effect on the fruitfulness of that grace in the individual’s life.
 
Yes, Joe, you are right in what you said about the Holy Spirit in the sacraments. And that last bit about objectivity and subjectivity of the sacraments in spot on. Well put and better than I could have done it. Cvor, I have nothing left to say because Joe put it in a nutshell. Thanks for the post!
 
Thank you all! I have posted your responses on the other message board. This poster there is rather belligerent and still won’t admit she is wrong. Now she is telling me I am dishonest for not telling the Church. I don’t know what to tell her. I don’t acknowledge the Church, the sacraments, their rules, their beliefs. I don’t think I am being dishonest. I am not involved in the organization nor am I interacting with them.

My girlfriend is Catholic and she knows my beliefs as does my family. I am not hiding anything from anyone!

Anyway, you are all very nice and you are welcome to join me there. I won’t post the link because I don’t want to break your rules here. If you google a sentence of your posts (put in quotations) made here in a day or so, you will see where it is. My name is the same there as it is here. It can get nasty there though.

Thank you so much :o) I’ll check back for more responses as well.
 
cvor said:
Thank you all! I have posted your responses on the other message board. This poster there is rather belligerent and still won’t admit she is wrong. Now she is telling me I am dishonest for not telling the Church. I don’t know what to tell her. I don’t acknowledge the Church, the sacraments, their rules, their beliefs. I don’t think I am being dishonest. I am not involved in the organization nor am I interacting with them.

My girlfriend is Catholic and she knows my beliefs as does my family. I am not hiding anything from anyone!

Anyway, you are all very nice and you are welcome to join me there. I won’t post the link because I don’t want to break your rules here. If you google a sentence of your posts (put in quotations) made here in a day or so, you will see where it is. My name is the same there as it is here. It can get nasty there though.

Thank you so much :o) I’ll check back for more responses as well.
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That’s an interesting take: that you’re “dishonest for not telling the Church” that you no longer believe. I think it’s rather silly to expect every fallen-away Catholic to write a letter to their local parish or local bishop to “tell them” that you don’t believe anymore. I imagine that would only serve to create a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

It would be one thing if you were publicly going against Church teaching (by co-habitating, for example), but then saying “I’m a Catholic in good standing” to anyone who will listen. That would be dishonest.
 
kage_ar said:
By dishonest, perhaps they mean that if you feel that way, you could formally defect:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html
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What does not defecting have to do with honesty though? I have not been involved with the church in 20 years and never was as an adult. Just did it because my parents told me to. Not sure what honesty has to do with that since I am not involved with them and I don’t acknowledge their rules or authority to begin with.
 
I read the link, but this doesn’t seem to do anything:
It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
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So I can defect, but they are saying here that there is a permanent bond. So, they are pretty much saying they will note my objection but that really amounts to nothing. Seems like they still consider me “Catholic” unless I am missing something.
 
Anyway, the person on the other board is quoting catechism and telling me my baptism wasn’t valid according to church law. I and others there are giving up I think. I wrote to a Franciscan priest to see what he says about all of this.

I never heard of invalid baptisms due to lack of belief and feigned interest upon confirmation. It seems the consensus everywhere is that as long a you are baptized you are Catholic for life according to the Church. Even if you become a satanist and never had confirmation or other sacraments.
Is that so, and is there clear documentation of this? The sticking point is again whether the baptism requires a confirmation with sincerity of belief and consent in order to be “valid”. Of course the Church doesn’t review this kind of thing, but could they theoretically?
 
Hello cvor,

The Catholic Church has a rather “familial” concept of membership/incorporation. Once you are part of a family by birth, you are always part of that family. You can leave the house, delete the phone numbers, block the mail, ignore “rules,” etc., but you are still the son/daughter/sister/brother. Similarly, once a person is baptized into the Catholic Church, you are and will be Catholic. Even if you are “practically” not a Catholic by doing all you have done to distance yourself from the Catholic Church, the Church still considers you part of the Catholic family.

As far as valid sacraments, your baptism was certainly valid, as long as the proper words were used and water touched your body. I would consider all the other sacraments valid, as well. But, baptism is the one that matters in this conversation.

I wouldn’t bother with even thinking about formal defection as long as you are dating another Catholic. (The act of formal defection only has consequences regarding a relaxation of three marriage laws of the Church. But, if you marry another Catholic, you will observe all the laws anyway…presuming your wife observes the laws…)

Thanks for your time.

Dan
 
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