Am I Catholic

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Hello again. A current practicing Catholic is referencing this website and saying we are all incorrect - I am not considered Catholic. I called the Church and wrote a Franciscan and they said I am considered Catholic. Any thoughts on the link below? It seems to contradict everything being said here and being said by every other Catholic I spoke with.

catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=32533

The author is Fr. Hardon who seems to have good credentials.
 
Hello again. A current practicing Catholic is referencing this website and saying we are all incorrect - I am not considered Catholic. I called the Church and wrote a Franciscan and they said I am considered Catholic. Any thoughts on the link below? It seems to contradict everything being said here and being said by every other Catholic I spoke with.

catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=32533

The author is Fr. Hardon who seems to have good credentials.
There is a difference between being Catholic and being in communion with the Church. You become Catholic by virtue of your baptism in the Catholic Church. You enter into communion with the Church (again) by repenting of your sins and receiving the sacrament of confession. Put another way, not all Catholics are in communion with the Church, but everyone in full communion with the Church is Catholic.
 
Hello again. A current practicing Catholic is referencing this website and saying we are all incorrect - I am not considered Catholic. I called the Church and wrote a Franciscan and they said I am considered Catholic. Any thoughts on the link below? It seems to contradict everything being said here and being said by every other Catholic I spoke with.

catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=32533

The author is Fr. Hardon who seems to have good credentials.
Well, one one hand you have the opinion of your Franciscan - and every other Catholic you spoke with - and the Catechism, the official teaching document of our faith.

On the other hand you have one quote - from someone long since passed on, and thus unable to verify either that he ACTUALLY said that or that he MEANT what your Catholic friend THINKS he meant. A quote moreover not of Magisterial (and thus infallible) authority,
 
But this person is stating:
this definition is meant to exclude all others from actual and vital membership in the Catholic Church, namely apostates and heretics who do not profess the same Christian faith
He is saying actual membership does not include apostates (me I presume).

???
 
But this person is stating:

He is saying actual membership does not include apostates (me I presume).

???
Whence the confusion?

Like I said ‘this person’ does not comprise within him (or her?) self the teaching authority of the Church. There are higher authorities that bind him or her and Fr Hardon, and all Catholics, that say the total opposite. Heck, the article even mentions one of them - Vatican 2 - which as an ecumenical church council is the HIGHEST authority alongside the Pope himself.

He or she - or Fr Hardon - can easily be wrong, that being the case. The higher authorities (church councils) cannot. Who ya gonna believe?
 
Like I said ‘this person’ does not comprise within him (or her?) self the teaching authority of the Church
This is possible- however he has some impressive credentials. He wrote the Catholic Cathechism and was a consultant to the Vatican among many other things. I called 2 Churches and emailed a Franciscan and they said I was Catholic. Maybe the Church doesn’t agree with Fr. Hardon on this or perhaps we are misinterpretting something h is saying?

Do we have any official documentation of the Church that says a Catholic is _________?
 
This is possible- however he has some impressive credentials. He wrote the Catholic Cathechism and was a consultant to the Vatican among many other things. I called 2 Churches and emailed a Franciscan and they said I was Catholic. Maybe the Church doesn’t agree with Fr. Hardon on this or perhaps we are misinterpretting something h is saying?

Do we have any official documentation of the Church that says a Catholic is _________?
He did not write the Catholic Catechism - it wasn’t the product of one person, rather of a group, an Interdicasterial Commission, which was appointed by John Paul II. And all the Bishops of the world had (name removed by moderator)ut into it before its final release.

As for official documents about the indelible nature of baptism and its effects on initiating you into the Catholic church I submit for your consideration the following:

Firstly from the code of Canon law - which are the laws governing the Church and its members:

“Canon 849 … Through baptism men and women are freed from sin, are reborn as children of God, and, configured to Christ by an indelible character, are incorporated into the Church.

And from the Catechism which your friend claims to have authored:

“1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.76 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to “obey and submit” to the Church’s leaders,77 holding them in respect and affection.78 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.79”

So clearly one of the effects of baptism is to make you a member of the Church with various obligations pertaining. Church with a capital C, which in a Catholic context means nothing other than the Catholic Church. Combine that with the following, also from the Catechism:

" An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated."

So once you have been initiated into the Catholic Church by baptism, NO sin, not even apostasy, heresy or schism, can remove that mark that makes you Catholic. All that DOES happen is that you become a Catholic who is ALSO guilty of the sins of apostasy, heresy or schism and is separated from the Church.

A branch of a tree which dies or is cut off from the trunk is still a branch of that tree and no other, simply a dead and cut-off branch.

Hence baptism being unrepeatable - surely if apostasy and so on made you no longer Catholic you’d need rebaptism, reinitiation, if you decided to return to the Church. But you don’t.
 
This is possible- however he has some impressive credentials. He wrote the Catholic Cathechism and was a consultant to the Vatican among many other things. I called 2 Churches and emailed a Franciscan and they said I was Catholic. Maybe the Church doesn’t agree with Fr. Hardon on this or perhaps we are misinterpretting something h is saying?

Do we have any official documentation of the Church that says a Catholic is _________?
Pope Leo XIII:
This world-wide and solemn testimony of allegiance and piety is especially appropriate to Jesus Christ, who is the Head and Supreme Lord of the race. His empire extends not only over Catholic nations and those who, having been duly washed in the waters of holy baptism, belong of right to the Church, although erroneous opinions keep them astray, or dissent from her teaching cuts them off from her care; it comprises also all those who are deprived of the Christian faith, so that the whole human race is most truly under the power of Jesus Christ.
CCC 1267:
Baptism incorporates us into the Church.
 
Fr. Hardon was a great priest and contributed greatly to the field of Catholic catechesis. Although he did not single-handedly compose the Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], he did write a catechism (The Catholic Catechism) back in 1975 which, along with Wuerl and the Lawler brothers “The Teaching of Christ” (1976), was pretty much the best we had to go from until the official CCC came out in the early 90’s.

That said, this article is from Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, not from his Catechism. Keep in mind what Hardon is doing here and the purpose of the dictionary. He is trying to simply define Catholic terms. It is not intended to be a theologically precise treatise on ecclesiology. It’s just a dictionary article.

I guess this whole dispute makes sense because the Church does not plainly state “In order for one to apply the title ‘Catholic’ to one’s self, one must fulfil X, Y, and Z.” The fact is, Hardon is right: apostates do separate themselves from the Church. They are no longer “vital members” as Hardon states. But does that mean you are no longer “Catholic”? I think that’s a separate question.

I think Hardon would be the first to agree with the quotes that LilyM is providing (if he were still alive). Perhaps he might disagree with what those passages mean in relation to this particular question. Perhaps not. We can’t ask him.

What I think LilyM is saying in a nutshell (and what I tend to agree with) is that, the indellible mark on one’s soul received at Baptism is what makes you “Catholic”. Since this mark can never be erased, neither can you ever become “non-Catholic”. It seems that these other people disagree with that. I don’t think it’s that they disagree about the indellible mark on your soul, but only about whether that makes you “Catholic.” And I’m not sure there’s something simple I can point to that would change their mind.

Sorry I don’t have an easy answer for you. :o
 
Yes, you are a Catholic.

I sincerely hope that your heart changes, and that you find your way back into communion with the church.

DP
 
Thanks. for the info.

If anyone gets bored, I am posting on a MSNBC thread entitled Pope: Other denominations not true churches.

boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/board.aspx?BoardID=380

I am posting your responses there and going back and forth. You are welcomed to join us there. This thread has all types - atheists, agnostics, catholics, protestants, born agains, mmmm a “satanist” lol, and jews.

Nothing is really getting resolved, but that’s par for the course really.
 
Reject the supernatural claims of the bible and think the Bible is innaccurate

**Do you think that the Bible is inaccurate on the basis of serious study of the Bible itself, archaeology, and history?

Or because it’s merely convenient for you to make this assumption?**
 
Do you think that the Bible is inaccurate on the basis of serious study of the Bible itself, archaeology, and history? Or because it’s merely convenient for you to make this assumption?
Well, people can think it’s convenient to believe it or not believe or believe some of it or whatever.

This thread doesn’t appear to be the forum for this type of discussion but you can feel free to post on the MSNBC thread if you would like to know more details concerning this. My username is the same there.

Thanks
 
Thanks. for the info.

If anyone gets bored, I am posting on a MSNBC thread entitled Pope: Other denominations not true churches.

boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/board.aspx?BoardID=380

I am posting your responses there and going back and forth. You are welcomed to join us there. This thread has all types - atheists, agnostics, catholics, protestants, born agains, mmmm a “satanist” lol, and jews.

Nothing is really getting resolved, but that’s par for the course really.
That one thread has nearly 138,000 posts. :eek: How do you guys get anything done over there! 😉 Suddenly I realize why CAF has a 1,000 post limit for each thread! Perhaps I’ll post over there if I can wade through enough of the posts to make sense of where the conversation is at.
 
Hi Joe-- yeah-- well alot of the posts there are off topic and MSNBC lets alot of it go.
 
Hello and good morning everyone. I am agnostic and this is my first post. I am not here to question anyone’s religious beliefs. I am seeking factual information about my current “status” in the Roman Catholic Church. Hopefully someone can inform me.

Here is my information:

Baptized in the RCC as an infant and “completed” all the sacraments (more info to follow)
Went to 12 years of Catholic School
Currently Agnostic
Reject the supernatural claims of the bible and think the Bible is innaccurate
I do not believe Jesus was God and disagree with some of his teaching while agreeing with others. The ones I do agree with have nothing to do with anything supernatural. I just agree with some of the ethical principles (which can be found in other cultures) and find some things he alledgedly said to be insightful (as many may do the same with philosphers and the like). Let’s just say, to make a long story short, that I will never practice “Christianity” or believe the supernatural claims of the Bible.

Ok…some info on my received Sacraments:

Baptized as an infant:
Obviously no consent
Confirmation: I recall being around the age of 10. I remember not wanting to do it and doing it simply because my parents told me to. Kind of in the same way your parents tell you to go to school and you just do it. This was 25 years ago so the details are sketchy, but I don’t think I grasped what any of it was even about. I saw it as a requirement. I was in the Catholic school and my parents were Catholic but I was always skeptical as a child. I just went along with it because my parents gave me no real choice. I mean–I’m sure as a 10 year old I could have ran away or ran out of the Church, but I just wasn’t the type of child to do that. I was respectful of my parents and partially fearful of the consequences (my parents did not beat me but they would yell if I did something bad enough and I was fearful of that as a child). And of course, I was a child and children can’t really be held accountable. So, as I said, I completed all of the sacraments but just went through the motions.

So, my questions are:

Were these sacraments I went through “valid”? If not, does this make me not considered “Catholic” since what made me Catholic was essentially based on false pretenses and I wasn’t sincere?

Out of curiousity, if someone is baptized in the Church and never does anything else and completes no sacraments and becomes atheist and is atheist their whole life, does the Church consider them Catholic?

**Does the Church consider me currently “Catholic”? ** The last I checked they did, but I never discussed my longstanding current beliefs with them and never described me going through the sacraments in the manner described with them.

If I am still considered “Catholic” by the Church, how can I change this? Is this even possible to change?

Thank you everyone. I will be interested in your responses and if there is any supported documentation for your answers, I would be interested in reviewing it! :o)
no, you are not a Catholic any longer. how could you be? if you dont believe anything the church teaches specially in matters of our Lord? if you dont practice any of the Church’s teachings. if you dont believe in Jesus, what good does it do to you to be a Catholic? i say no, dont worry you are no longer a Catholic.
 
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