Am I Catholic?

[Hesychios]

, I’m originally from Detroit and always had the same Priest …

Call your priest in the family parish back home in Detroit, and tell him what happened.

 

[Hesychios]

It is saddening that I see some Roman Catholics here eager to take advantage of the irregular pastoral situation of an Orthodox Christian to pull him away from his church. In most comments there is no regard whatever for whether the person has the proper belief to be a good Papal Catholic. It does not seem to matter what the man actually believes, you can all kick his butt later when he has been roped in.

It seems it’s not initially important what they believe, so long as they come ‘under the Pope’ and have put themselves in a position where they think there is no going back.

If all anyone wants is another ‘Orthodox in Communion with Rome’ the church deserves all the problems it gets, as if it hasn’t enough problems already.

 

[Hesychios]

I have been to an Antiochian Orthodox church but it looked like protestants trying to be Orthodox.

They are Orthodox.

Is the Melkite church in the United states Arabic or very Americanized also?

They are Catholics.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

From what you described, you are likely in “limbo”.

If you wish to remain in Communion with the Orthodox Church, you should seek to reconcile with them. I have no idea as to how this happens, or how long the process is. Also judging from what you’ve stated (and from my knowledge of Orthodoxy) unless you receive dispensation from your Orthodox bishop, they will not regard your marriage as being an actual marriage. And depending on the all the specific details, you might have to contact the Bishop in order to reconcile, anyways.

If you wish to become a Catholic, you should begin that process. I would call the Diocese and explain the situation to them, and then (hopefully) they’ll put you in contact with the right people. If you converted to Catholicism, you would be ascribed to one of the Eastern Catholic Churches, although which one I do not know. And if you’d wish to become a Latin Rite Catholic, there would be more paper-work and such to fill out. There would be no problem with you marriage, because it is already seen as valid by the Catholic Church.

Beyond that, I don’t know what to tell you. Pray really hard, for this isn’t an easy choice. I hope everything goes well for you.

 

[LoyalViews]

A Greek Orthodox Christian’s counterpart would probably be the Byzantine Catholic Church. However, if one is an Antiochian or part of the “Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch” as it is called elsewhere under the jurisdiction of Patriarch Ignatius IV – then his counterpart would be the Melkite Greek Catholic Church if my understanding serves me correct.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Hesychios]

A Greek Orthodox Christian’s counterpart would probably be the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Not exactly but …

Most people identify the Byzantine Catholic church in the USA with the the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, although some people use the term ‘Byzantine’ generically to refer to many other groups (Romanians, Ukrainians etc.). The BCC/Metropolia of Pittsburgh follows the Ruthenian recension (which it shares with the UGCC) and was originally populated by Central Europeans. It was mostly considered a counterpart to Orthodox living in Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia (Serbs), southern Poland and some parts of modern Ukraine. Many, but by no means all of these people were from a community called Rusin (an east Slavic people closely related to Ukrainians), which never has had a soverign nation of it’s own.

These groups are all mixed together in north America, Rome separated the Ukrainians from them in the USA. Although most of the parishes involved at the time had a mixture of members, the parishes with a majority of Ukrainians were placed under the Metropolia of Philadelphia.

For ethnic Greeks, there is actually a Greek Catholic church of the ‘Byzantine’ rite which would serve as a counterpart, but in fact it has no hierarchy in North America. It has an exarch in Athens, and between 2,000 and 3,000 members. Members of the Greek Orthodox church under the EP would be ascribed to this church if they convert, but if they want to attend a congregation in north America, they are going to have to attend another Sui Iuris church.

… if one is an Antiochian or part of the “Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch” as it is called elsewhere under the jurisdiction of Patriarch Ignatius IV – then his counterpart would be the Melkite Greek Catholic Church if my understanding serves me correct.

That would be essentially correct.

 

[Vico]

Yian, from what you wrote it seems that you were baptised Greek Orthodox and did not profess in a Catholic church, so no, you are not Catholic because of your marriage. Also the Catholic and Greek Orthodox do not generally allow reception of the Holy Mysteries in each others churches. The Orthodox should receive from an Orthodox Church and the Catholics from a Catholic Church, except for very specific conditions. There are also some specific rules that the Catholic Church has for marriage of a Catholic to an Orthodox.

Generally the Catholic-Orthodox marriage requires it to be in the Orthodox Church and the Catholic needs a a dispensation from Canonical Form and permission for mixed marriage.

But, you did the reverse, so the Orthodox may not recognize your Catholic marriage.

Catholic:

1. It requires permission for mixed marriage.
2. The Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church, and the non-Catholic spouse must be informed of this.

Orthodox:
The Greek Orthodox Church may not recognize your marriage outside the church, nor a marriage to a non-orthodox, nor allow you to raise your children outside Orthodoxy.

Orthodox (SCOBA) recommendation:
scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic-bishops/orthodox-catholic-marriages.html

 

[JRKH]

It is saddening that I see some Roman Catholics here eager to take advantage of the irregular pastoral situation of an Orthodox Christian to pull him away from his church. In most comments there is no regard whatever for whether the person has the proper belief to be a good Papal Catholic. It does not seem to matter what the man actually believes, you can all kick his butt later when he has been roped in.

It seems it’s not initially important what they believe, so long as they come ‘under the Pope’ and have put themselves in a position where they think there is no going back.

If all anyone wants is another ‘Orthodox in Communion with Rome’ the church deserves all the problems it gets, as if it hasn’t enough problems already.

There is no offense intended. Since the OP had married a “Papal Catholic” as you call it, there seemed a possibility that he might be open to some sort of shift.
In fact his recent posts seem to indicate that he IS open to such a possibility but wishes to explore it further…So it appears the suggestions were not really out of line.

Of course if he had come back with a strongly negative take on looking into another church or rite or communion or whatever anyone wishes to call it, then I’m sure that such suggestions would taper off.

Overall, I’m glad to see some folks here both from the various communions who can give good knowledgeable information.

Peace
James

 

[Vico]

There is a difference between proselytism and evangelization.

“As explicitly recognized in the Decree on Ecumenism of the Second Vatican Council, “it is evident that the work of preparing and reconciling those individuals who desire full Catholic communion is of its nature distinct from ecumenical action, but there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God”.[50] Therefore, the work of ecumenism does not remove the right or take away the responsibility of proclaiming in fullness the Catholic faith to other Christians, who freely wish to receive it.”

“The term proselytism originated in the context of Judaism, in which the term proselyte referred to someone who, coming from the gentiles, had passed into the Chosen People. So too, in the Christian context, the term proselytism was often used as a synonym for missionary activity. More recently, however, the term has taken on a negative connotation, to mean the promotion of a religion by using means, and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel; that is, which do not safeguard the freedom and dignity of the human person.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20071203_nota-evangelizzazione_en.html

 

[5Loaves]

First I will say we only have your perspective on this… because what I will say is so critical of those who handled, I think gravely mishandled, your marriage prep. They’re not here to defend their behavior, but from what you’ve said what happened there makes my blood boil.

All I had to do was to be married was show my baptismal certificate.

The minute they saw your Orthodox baptismal certificate they should have contacted the chancery to get the proper information on how to proceed (ie contact your Orthodox priest).

The pre-marriage interview was done in Spanish (with him and my wife speaking mostly) so** I did not understand what was going on** at the time(working on my spanish). The class was one day at St. Joseph in San Jose and was pretty ridiculous. Everyone talked about how when they get married they cant wait to have a dog or 3 LOL it was funny.

The very fact your interview was in a language you do not understand frankly is unconscionable. The possibility this raises for this resulting ultimately in an invalid marriage is exactly why it must never happen. (This doesn’t excuse you, dear, from allowing yourself to be in such an important meeting where you were excluded by those speaking in a language you are not sufficiently fluent in.)

This sounds like a very sad state of affairs for those who are preparing for marriage in that parish. The Sacrament of marriage deserves better. My husband and I went to a Catholic Engaged Encounter weekend 32 years ago, although neither of us was Catholic. It was a really excellent exploration of many topics with wonderful messages from the clergy and married couples on the team that provided the leadership. We went there looking for better preparation for marriage than we had found in our own ecclesial community and we were certainly not disappointed.

…This is precisely why it is so important for those doing such ministries in the Latin Church to contact their chancery whenever an Eastern Catholic or an Orthodox Christian comes in for marriage, or sometimes for reception into the Church from Orthodoxy. They are not familiar with our Churches and when they don’t get correct information** lives are affected in serious ways. ** Also, makes for unneeded added stress between the Catholic Church and Orthodox…

I pray the priest at St. Elias in Santa Cruz has had other experiences with Catholic clergy that were better than this misfortune. Dare I ask, was your marriage in the Catholic church presided over by only a deacon? Or was the priest the presider? Since you are Orthodox, currently excommunicated, but none the less Orthodox, either marriage would be invalid as far as Orthodoxy is concerned, but in the case of our Eastern Catholics when those doing the marriage do not check with the chancery before the marriage and if they have a deacon only as the presider at the marriage then that marriage is invalid.

Ultimately someone needs to get back to this parish and let them know the error they committed, hopefully avoid it ever happening again.

There is a Melkite parish in the San Jose, also St. Elias. They have a wonderful priest Father James Graham. He might be able to pastorally talk with the priest and marriage prep folks at St. Joseph in San Jose to make this a “teaching moment”. You might go and talk with him as someone who is used to “dealing with” the Latin Church and also I’m sure has many experiences with Orthodox clergy and laity.

Again, you are in my prayers. You mustn’t let this discourage you. Again, I suggest you talk more with your priest at St. Elias Santa Cruz and include asking him if he knows of Catholic Orthodox couples you could talk with about having a successful marriage involving these two Churches. I don’t know if we have any such couples here on CAF but there definitely are some on another Forum.

P.S. If you can get over to Salinas Fr. Anthony Hernandez serves Divine Liturgy there once a month. His regular parish is in Los Gatos, tho it has grown so much they have Sunday DL in Palo Alto now. Fr. Anthony is also an exceptional priest and you and your wife might find meeting with him helpful.

 

[yian027]

Okay so someone gave me some information and I’m wondering if there is any truth to what they told me. I was told by a Catholic that because I am Orthodox and the head of the family that there is a document by John Paul 2 that say my wife and kids would have to follow my religion. Is there such a thing or was he telling stories?

 

[yian027]

thank you for the info 5 loaves, did you happen to make it to see the Myrrh-streaming Iveron icon from Hawaii at St. Basil’s Greek Orthodox church today?

 

[5Loaves]

I am currently attending Prophet Elias in Santa Cruz and the priest wanted to perform a ceremony kind of like a re-marriage but not regardless of what it is my wife did not like the idea of it because she thought it would be saying that our first marriage didn’t count. ** My wife has a problem with orthodox because though before me she never new that we existed now every church we have attended they have told her she does not have the true faith and should convert blah blah**. Her son who I adopted is also Roman Catholic. Its tough being a different religion and us going 2 different places on Sunday.

She’s right that the point is the marriage doesn’t count from the perspective of the Orthodox. Being Catholic priests Fr Anthony (Ruthenian, fluent in Spanish) and Fr James Graham (Melkite) might help your wife better understand what is going on from the Orthodox perspective in a less “threatening” way than hearing it from the Orthodox. I know Fr. Anthony better, having studied with him for two classes, for 8 months, in the Oakland diocese, and only having met Fr James once. You should not hesitate to contact Fr. Hernandez. He is on Facebook Fr-Anthony Hernandez. Feel free to PM me if you think I can be helpful. I’m in SF, East Bay.

 

[5Loaves]

Okay so someone gave me some information and I’m wondering if there is any truth to what they told me. I was told by a Catholic that because I am Orthodox and the head of the family that there is a document by John Paul 2 that say my wife and kids would have to follow my religion. Is there such a thing or was he telling stories?

Perhaps they are thinking of the situation of a husband who is one of the 22 Eastern or Oriental Catholic Churches and the wife of the Latin Church which is covered in canon law of both the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches-- the children are to be baptized/chrismated in the Eastern Church of the father, unless both parents agree to having the baptism in the Latin Church. (The baptism and chrismation can take place in the Latin Church with permissions and still be canonically Eastern Catholic and noted as such in the record.)

The Orthodox Church requires that Orthodox marrying a Catholic agree to raise their children as Orthodox. Catholics agree to raise their children Catholic… Thus the suggestion I’ve made that you try to find some couples living in this kind of Orthodox Catholic marriage.

 

[5Loaves]

thank you for the info 5 loaves, did you happen to make it to see the Myrrh-streaming Iveron icon from Hawaii at St. Basil’s Greek Orthodox church today?

I’m sorry to say I did not. I didn’t realize it was there again. Did you get there?
Several of us are planning to go to St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox, San Jose, Dec. 4th for the St. Nicholas in Hymnology and Visual Images, presentation. If you’re going to that let me know and maybe we can meet there.

 

[yian027]

Thanks for the heads up 5 Loaves, we will try to make it!

 

[ChristGirl]

Wow Yia, then I am in a similar situation. Was married in an Eastern Catholic church as an Orthodox. The priest said that as Catholic my husband would not be allowed to get married in an Orthodox Church because the Orthodox Church will not marry a Catholic unless they convert to Orthodoxy in order to get married. My husband didn’t wanted to convert, I didn’t wanted to convert either, but his priest said in the Catholic church(or at least the Eastern Catholic Church) Orthodox don’t have to convert in order to get married in the Eastern Catholic Church. I had to sign something saying that I was going to remain Orthodox during the interview. He is from one of the 22 divisions of Eastern Catholicism from one of the smaller Eastern Euro countries.

My husband was ok actually to get married in the OC but we were unaware he had to convert in order to do so, he really thought it was ok. His aunt who is an EC got married in an Orthodox Church with no problems, same with my other aunt, but this was many years ago, so not sure what changed.

This is why I posed a question earlier(can’t find it)on whether or not it would be ok to baptize the children in the OC.

Greek Orthodox also is different from other Orthodox branches I noticed too. But my one Greek friend married her husband who is Catholic in an OC church and he didn’t have to convert and was allowed, but the other Greek Orthodox church they wanted to get married in wouldn’t do it.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Wow Yia, then I am in a similar situation. Was married in an Eastern Catholic church as an Orthodox. The priest said that as Catholic my husband would not be allowed to get married in an Orthodox Church because the Orthodox Church will not marry a Catholic unless they convert to Orthodoxy in order to get married. My husband didn’t wanted to convert, I didn’t wanted to convert either, but his priest said in the Catholic church(or at least the Eastern Catholic Church) Orthodox don’t have to convert in order to get married in the Eastern Catholic Church. I had to sign something saying that I was going to remain Orthodox during the interview. He is from one of the 22 divisions of Eastern Catholicism from one of the smaller Eastern Euro countries.

My husband was ok actually to get married in the OC but we were unaware he had to convert in order to do so, he really thought it was ok. His aunt who is an EC got married in an Orthodox Church with no problems, same with my other aunt, but this was many years ago, so not sure what changed.

This is why I posed a question earlier(can’t find it)on whether or not it would be ok to baptize the children in the OC.

Greek Orthodox also is different from other Orthodox branches I noticed too. But my one Greek friend married her husband who is Catholic in an OC church and he didn’t have to convert and was allowed, but the other Greek Orthodox church they wanted to get married in wouldn’t do it.

That seems a bit unusual. All of the Orthodox parishes where I live will perform mixed marriages so long as the betrothed is a baptized Christian.

 

[waishou]

This is where things start to get confusing

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[The_Idiot]

This is where things start to get confusing

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