Am I correct on the state of the dead

[Montie_Claunch]

I have been studying (as most of you no doubt no doubt know) on the state of the dead. I think I have it (except for two verses I am not tottaly sure about). I was hopeing that some of you would look over it and see if it’s all good or if I have goofed on it and need better direction. Thanks.

State of The Dead

Belief: One should find it obvious that ones soul does not sleep after death but, is judged and receives ones due reward.

Objections: Rom. 6:23

1 Tim. 6:15, 16
Eccl. 9:5, 6
Ps. 146:3, 4
John 11:11-14
1 Cor. 15:51-54
1 Thess. 4:13-17
John 5:28, 29
Rev. 20:1-10

Reply: Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I don’t see how that relates.

1 Tim. 6:15,16 and this will be made manifest at the proper time by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Umm… “No man has seen or can see” by that reasoning would mean we would never get to heaven.

Ecc. 9:5,6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.

???

Psalm 146:3,4 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.

This proves only that there is there is no help in worldly things (princes) and that their bodies return to the earth (as genesis states) and that his plans die with him as plans oft do when those who are supposed to execute die.

John 11:11-14 Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, “Our friend Laz’arus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, "Laz’arus is dead;

I fail to see the connection. People say that someone has “fallen asleep” when they die but, bears no point on the soul as people on this thread have made abundantly clear.

again with 1 Cor. 15:51-54 I fail to see the connection. Paul is talking about the general judgment when this happens.

1st thess. 4:13-17 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

it sounds to me like its saying that that the dead will be judged before those who are alive (as if those who died are judged and could go to heaven hell or purgatory.)

John 5:28, 29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

I would like to give you the next verse which was conveniently left out. John 5:30 I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just

these verses in no way implies soul sleep. It simply states that they will be doing a little waiting before Jesus will judge them (which leads me to think possibly when Jesus is done with Calvary or whenever Jesus feels like, as with Moses and Elijah)

Rev. 20:1-10, I will admit I don’t quite understand. Thou I still fail to see a connection. If the lord is going to resurrect our bodies at the General Judgment I don’t see why he couldn’t do that with a few people, (I mean he is God after all). Maybe someone else can offer some insight.-help with this one please

 

[Montie_Claunch]

(cont.) Proof of Belief: Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
2 Corinthians 5:6-9 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1:21-24 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

(Eccl 12:5 NASB) Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.

(Eccl 12:6 NASB) Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;

(Eccl 12:7 NASB) then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

(Gen 35:18 NASB) And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

(John 11:25 NASB) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies,

(John 11:26 NASB) and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

(1 Th 4:13 NASB) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

(1 Th 4:14 NASB) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

(1 Th 4:15 NASB) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

(Rev 6:9 NASB) And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

(Rev 6:10 NASB) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

any corrections, suggestions, comments, or what have you would be ever so appretiated. Thank you for the time and god bless.

 

[Todd_Easton]

In addition to the verses you cite against the teaching of “soul sleep,” consider the following:

Samuel prophesies after death: 1 Sam 28:15-19; Sirach 46:20.

Elisha performs marvelous deeds after death: Sirach 48:14 (probably referring in part to the events of 2 Kings 13:21).

In the trustworthy vision of Judas Maccabeus, Onias and Jeremiah are seen constantly praying for the Jewish people after death: 2 Maccabees 15:12-14.

In the story told by Jesus, the rich man and Abraham, one in torment and the other in comfort, converse after death: Luke 16:19-31.

At the Transfiguration, Moses appears and converses with Jesus after death: Luke 9:30-31

 

[Montie_Claunch]

I am still unclear about what to say about, Eccl. 9:5, 6, Ps. 146:3, 4, Rev. 20:1-10. Does anyone have any insight that might be usefull on these?

 

[SDA2RC]

Montie Claunch:

I am still unclear about what to say about, Eccl. 9:5, 6, Ps. 146:3, 4, Rev. 20:1-10. Does anyone have any insight that might be usefull on these?

5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

This statement is no more a divine revelation concerning the state of the dead than any other conclusion of “the Teacher” (1:1). No one would quote 9:2 as a divine revelation. These reasonings of man apart from divine revelation are set down by inspiration just as the words of Satan (Gen 3:4; Job 2:4 - 5; etc.) are so recorded. But that life and consciousness continue between death and resurrection is directly affirmed in Scripture (Isa 14:9 - 11; Mat 22:32; Mark 9:43 - 48; Luke 16:19 - 31; 2 Cor 5:6 - 8; Phil 1:21 - 23; Rev 6:9 - 11).

IF you are taking this as a literal teaching from scripture, not the musings of an apethetic leader, or “teacher” then you (or SDA’s) must be consistent with this… for example, this verse states that those who die will never again have anything to do with that which is under the sun… This directly contradicts scripture… ie. Moses who was dead very much appeared on the Mt. of Transfiguration which was certainly under the Sun, in addition, SDA’s teach that the righteous dead will be resurrected and caught up into the clouds with Christ at the second coming… something that must happen from Earth… and hence under the Sun. Finally, it contradicts the resurrection of Christ, who died and certainly rose again to minister for 40 days “under the Sun”. Finally, the elders in Revelation are ministering for the Saints on Earth, very much involved with that which is going on “under the sun”. The very contradictions that the SDA interpretation of this passage creates with scripture forces one to reject either this verse as a literal teaching on the state of the dead, or to reject other parts of scripture which overwhelmingly contradict it. I guess it really comes down to if you want to believe the SDA view of the verse or the historically Christian view of this passage.

Psalms 146 is much the same… I do not have room here to discuss but if you dont understand what I mean let me know and I will write a seperate post for it. If you take Psalms 146 as a direct teaching on the State of the Dead, then you ignore the stated meaning of the text, which is to show that we should not trust mortal men. There are three ways which one could interpret this verse, two of which coincide perfectly with the rest of the Bible and the witness of scripture about those who have died, as mentioned above. One of the three completely contradicts what we know happened to the dead by scriptures own testimony… SDA’s pick the last interpretation and ignore the other two so as to try to have verses to support their position.

Cont.

 

[SDA2RC]

As for Rev 20… If I understand your confusion correctly, it could be because of a misguided understanding of the two “resurrections”…

" There are not two future visible advents of Christ, one to establish a millenial kingdom, and another a thousand years later at the last day. Scripture expressly counts only two visible advents of Christ in all: a), the advent to take away the guilt of sin, which has taken place; b). the advent to lead the believers into eternal bliss. Heb. 9:28: “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Scripture also teaches only one still future general resurrection of the dead on the last day, whereas millenialists demand two bodily resurrections, one of the righteous only, at the beginning of the millenium, and the other of the rest of the dead, at the end of the thousand years, at judgment day. John 5:28, 29: “The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” A few verses before, in the same discourse of Jesus, He speaks of the “first resurrection” (Rev. 20:5, 6) in the Scriptural sense, as a spiritual resurrection, synonymous with conversion or regeneration: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live” (John 5:25). This call of Christ to arise spiritually, that is, to believe the Gospel, is resistible, because during the time of grace Christ works through means. But on Judgment Day (John 5:28) Christ’s call to the body to arise works irresistibly, because then “the Son of Man shall come in His glory,” in uncovered majesty, and therefore works with irresistible efficacy. This bodily resurrection, the only bodily resurrection which is to take place, is the general resurrection of all the dead (“all that are in the graves”) at the same “hour.” There is no room to insert a thousand years in the midst of the “hour” of John 5:28. But without a future double advent of Christ and a double bodily resurrection, both of which, as we have shown, are contrary to Scripture, the whole dream of millenialism collapses. The “thousand years” mentioned in Rev. 20:4 refers to a reign of souls with Christ in heaven, and has nothing to do with a thousand years reign of persons raised from the dead upon earth. The harmfulness of millenialism consists in the fact that it diverts the hopes of Christians, which should be directed toward heaven (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20, 21; Matt. 5:12), to the earthly glory of an imaginary millenial kingdom. "

Let me know if I misunderstood your confustion with this passage…

Brandon

 

[jjwilkman]

are we still in kansas?

 

[SDA2RC]

jjwilkman:

are we still in kansas?

Not really sure where you are, where you coming from, or where your going… sorry.

Brandon

 

[Truth_searcher]

The bible is clear on the state of the dead in many versus. First off, it is important that we believe that the Bible is the word of God and that it is consistent since it comes from a God who never changes and is always the same.

Here is my belief: When we die we go to sleep, although there are a few examples where God has brought his servant to heaven…such as Moses and Elija.

This is what I have learned on the state of the dead…the following passages make it clear.

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence

John 11:11-14 …Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:23,24 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Now lets ask ourselves these questions. If we are immediately judged when we die and receive are reward or punishment…then Why would Jesus resurrect a man who has been judged already? Jesus makes it clear that when he says sleeping, he means dead. And multiple verses describe a person who is dead and sleeping. Now let us look at Revelation 20.

The Bible makes it clear again that in the second coming of Christ will occur the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Notice that the second death occurs in which all left on earth die before the thousand years begin. This thousand years of torment for satan is torment because he no longer has people or things he can posses. (scary thought that this suggest that satan is always possessing and deceiving people)

Verse 5 makes it clear that there is a second resurrection where the wicked are risen and judged. They realize the error of their ways and acknowledge God as being the true living God.

Another question…if we all go to heaven and our judged…who is God resurrecting to go up to heaven to be with Him? Also notice that the lake of fire (hell) does not come into existence until after the second resurrection. This is where the wicked are at last given their due punishment along with satan.

Revelation 20: 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Again, the wicked will be devoured by fire from heaven and satan and false prophets will be thrown into the lake of fire.