Am I excommunicated?

[Kevin12]

Maybe I should ask the mods just to shut down the thread since the issue has already been resolved. So, mods, if you see this, shut er down.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Guy: Bless me, father, for I have sinned.

Priest: WHAT??? You’ve sinned? You’re gonna have to leave, right now!!

 

[steve_b]

If you think I didn’t know I would go to hell if I die in mortal sin, I can assure you I do. If you think scaring me into not sinning is going to help me, you’re wrong and I actually told you in the original post I wasn’t looking for that kind of advice. As for your quotes—the stacking of quotes about damnation and hell-fire from the Bible or the saints is exactly what I was talking about when I said I didn’t want that kind of advice. It is exactly this sort of stacking of quotes by people on this very forum that has made me feel more alienated from the Church than I ever have been in my life, and your ignoring my request, far from doing me any good, has just made my problem worse.

But regardless, I’ve gone to confession and I’m going to try to not sin, but not because a bunch of quotes, but because I choose to do it.

You took the medicine. Great!

are you sure the consequences for mortal on your immortal soul, should you die in mortal sin, had no baring on your decision?

 

[Kevin12]

You took the medicine. Great!

are you sure the consequences for mortal on your immortal soul, should you die in mortal sin, had no baring on your decision?

What I asked was a question about excommunication and it had absolutely nothing to do with your views on my immortal soul, which is entirely between me and God. Experience has taught me that there is absolutely no point in discussing such a matter
on this forum.

If that isn’t clear enough: whether or not my decision to go to confession had anything to do with the fear of dying in mortal sin is none of your business.

 

[steve_b]

What I asked was a question about excommunication and it had absolutely nothing to do with your views on my immortal soul, which is entirely between me and God.

By definition, excommunication has direct effect on one’s immortal soul. They aren’t separate issues. You ask a question on one you automatically engage the other.
K:

If that isn’t clear enough: whether or not my decision to go to confession had anything to do with the fear of dying in mortal sin is none of your business.

when you said

“If you think I didn’t know I would go to hell if I die in mortal sin, I can assure you I do. If you think scaring me into not sinning is going to help me, you’re wrong and I actually told you in the original post I wasn’t looking for that kind of advice” #17

All I asked was, are you sure fear of hell had no effect on your decision to go to confession? #23

 

[Kevin12]

All I asked was, are you sure fear of hell had no effect on your decision to go to confession? #23

Let me repeat myself once and for all: whatever might have lead you to believe the contrary, that is none of your business.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Excommunication is basically separation from the sacraments until that person can obtain a state of grace.

No. That is not how the Church defines excommunication. Sinning gravely does not, per se, result in excommunication. Rather, excommunication is juridical; it is of the laws of the Church. Under current Church law, very few acts result in excommunication, and you have to know about the law and its penalty of excommunication when you commit the act for the excommunication to be effective. That is the law of the Church.

That said, there are three sins that do excommunicate in and of themselves: apostasy, formal heresy, formal schism. By these sins, the person excommunicates himself. Other sins do not excommunicate per se, unless there is a Church law or an imposed sentence of excommunication.

The Church also can apply a sentence called an interdict, which can include forbidding Communion. And this is short of the sentence of excommunication. So, despite the name, excommunication is not whatever forbids you from receiving Communion.

 

[Ron_Conte]

By definition, excommunication has direct effect on one’s immortal soul. %between%

False. Excommunication is juridical; it is of Church law, not the eternal moral law (except for the cases of apostasy, heresy, schism, as I explained in my previous post).

Saint Joan of Arc was excommunicated (ferendae sententiae). She died in state of excommunication, and also in the state of grace. Excommunication has no effect on the soul or the state of grace.

IF someone commits an actual mortal sin, they lose the state of grace. Nothing else deprives the baptized person of the state of grace. A person might be excommunicated without committing an actual mortal sin, or they might commit such a sin and not be excommunicated.

 

[zz912]

There’s a confession right before the Sunday 8 PM Mass here (it’s a college town), so I may just go to that more often.

Excellent plan. And I would again suggest mentioning to the priest that you might suffer from scrupulosity and if he knew of any resources or priests that could help determine if you do.

 

[steve_b]

False. Excommunication is juridical; it is of Church law, not the eternal moral law (except for the cases of apostasy, heresy, schism, as I explained in my previous post).

Excommunication is putting one outside the Church

Most cases of excommunication are latae Sententiae. Therefore only the person who is guilty, knows their situation. And in extension, excommunication puts one outside the Church.

"c. 1364

1. With due regard for can. 194, part 1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic or a schismatic incurs automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication and if a cleric, he can also be punished by the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, part 1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.
2. If long lasting contumacy or the seriousness of scandal warrants it, other penalties can be added including dismissal from the clerical state.

This canon is saying that once a person willingly repudiates Christ, embraces a heresy, knowing it to be contrary to divine and Catholic faith, or refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff (or communion with the members of the Church subject to him), by virtue of the law itself they are automatically excommunicated. No ecclesiastical act is necessary and no public notice".

In extension,

“Outside the Church There Is No Salvation. This means that someone who has formally separated himself from the Church through heresy or schism, or knowing the Church to be true failed to enter her, cannot be saved, unlessof course they renounce their own will and reconcile with the Church.”

Heresy, Schism and Apostasy - EWTN
R:

Saint Joan of Arc was excommunicated (ferendae sententiae). She died in state of excommunication, and also in the state of grace.

“In 1456, twenty-five years after her death, another appeal was made, this time in the name of her mother and of her brothers who were still alive. The verdict of 1431 was reversed by Pope Calixtus III on the grounds of the obvious hostility and unfairness of the judges, of additions, suppressions and omissions in the summing-up, of the incompetence of the court, culminating in an illegal sentence and an irregular execution. A mere reversal of the iniquitous sentence could not satisfy posterity, nor did it do full justice to the memory of St Joan, for she was more than the innocent victim of political and national quarrels, more than a great patriot: she was a saint, as many of her contemporaries had indeed believed and proclaimed her to be. On May 13th, 1920, in the great basilica of St Peter in Rome, Pope Benedict XV solemnly declared her to be one of God’s great servants and declared that she was to be honoured as Saint Joan, Virgin.[6]”

St Joan of Arc - EWTN

Ergo her excommunication was judged invalid in the first place.
R:

Excommunication has no effect on the soul or the state of grace.

False
R:

IF someone commits an actual mortal sin, they lose the state of grace. Nothing else deprives the baptized person of the state of grace. A person might be excommunicated without committing an actual mortal sin, or they might commit such a sin and not be excommunicated.

A valid excommunication always entails specific mortal sin(s) committed by the person being excommunicated.

Example : (apostasy, heresy schism ) carry the sentence of excommunication latae sententiae

 

[Ron_Conte]

Excommunication is putting one outside the Church

The excommunicated are not entirely outside the Church. There is a Canon 1335] which applies to priests who are excommunicated latae sententiae (ls). It allows them to dispense the Sacraments, despite being excommunicated. So excommunication is not a total repudiation of the affected person by Christ and His Church.

It is not all or nothing, as you propose. Furthermore, though a valid excommunication always involves a grave sin, the sin may be objectively mortal without being also an actual mortal sin. Therefore, the excommunicated person may still be in the state of grace, and is therefore still, in some sense, a member of the Church.

The examples you give of apostasy, heresy, and schism are the only sins that excommunicate by the nature of the offense, regardless of the law. So those are the exceptions. Other excommunications are juridical, and are entirely governed by Church law. So (back to the topic at hand) when the Church changed the Code in 1983, most penalties of excommunication were removed.

 

[steve_b]

The excommunicated are not entirely outside the Church. There is a Canon 1335] which applies to priests who are excommunicated latae sententiae (ls). It allows them to dispense the Sacraments, despite being excommunicated. So excommunication is not a total repudiation of the affected person by Christ and His Church.

It’s only suspended for a single purpose, that’s to give a faithful Catholic a sacrament who is near death.

The priest personally remains excommunicated.
R:

though a valid excommunication always involves a grave sin, the sin may be objectively mortal without being also an actual mortal sin.

Excommunication involves one actually committing the mortal sin in question.
R:

Therefore, the excommunicated person may still be in the state of grace, and is therefore still, in some sense, a member of the Church.

That’s a contradiction in terms.
If one reconciles with the Church through sacramental confession then they are back in the state of grace and no longer excommunicated.

see quote from link below
R:

The examples you give of apostasy, heresy, and schism are the only sins that excommunicate by the nature of the offense, regardless of the law.

a completed Abortion also does it latae sententiae 2272
R:

So those are the exceptions.

latae sententiae (automatic on the act) covers the majority of excommunications.

"3. Unless it is otherwise evident, imputability is presumed whenever an external violation has occurred.
Reconciliation
The penalty of excommunication carries with it the prohibition of receiving the sacraments, while not excusing from obligations such as Sunday and Holy Day Mass, Easter Duty etc… To be reconciled to the Church a person who has been excommunicated, even if that fact is known to the person alone, must first have the excommunication lifted. With the exception of certain crimes reserved to the Holy See, each bishop has the authority to remit the penalty of excommunication. However, he generally delegates this faculty to his priests, or at least to certain confessors (usually at the Cathedral).

Thus, by going to confession one can usually have the penalty lifted. If recourse to higher authority is needed the confessor will say so and invite the person to return the following week or at another time. He will then obtain the remission of the penalty from the bishop (protecting the person’s anonymity, of course.) and communicate it to the penitent. The person is then free to make a good confession and be fully reconciled with Christ and the Church."
Heresy, Schism and Apostasy - EWTN
R:

So (back to the topic at hand) when the Church changed the Code in 1983, most penalties of excommunication were removed.

Reference?

 

[Ron_Conte]

It’s only suspended for a single purpose, that’s to give a faithful Catholic a sacrament who is near death.

The priest personally remains excommunicated.

Yes, but the point is that the excommunicated priest is not entirely outside the Church, or else he could not administer the Sacraments.

Excommunication involves one actually committing the mortal sin in question.

You fail to distinguish between actual mortal sin, and objective mortal sin. I agree that, without an objective mortal sin an excommunication is not valid. But the sin might not be actual mortal sin, due to a lack of full knowledge or full deliberation.

a completed Abortion also does it latae sententiae 2272

Perhaps I was not clear. Apostasy, heresy, and schism excommunicate regardless of Canon law. They are inherently sins that separate one from full communion with the Church. Abortion ONLY excommunicates because it is in Canon law; it excommunicates by the fact of committing the offense, but apart from the law, the offense does not excommunicate.

 

[steve_b]

Yes, but the point is that the excommunicated priest is not entirely outside the Church, or else he could not administer the Sacraments.

He is outside the Church while he is excommunicated. The exception permitted him, is very specific. It is only for giving a Catholic who is dying, and seeks the sacrament and no other priest is available for that Catholic.
R:

You fail to distinguish between actual mortal sin, and objective mortal sin. I agree that, without an objective mortal sin an excommunication is not valid. But the sin might not be actual mortal sin, due to a lack of full knowledge or full deliberation.

I think it is obvious what we are talking about
R:

Perhaps I was not clear. Apostasy, heresy, and schism excommunicate regardless of Canon law

. They are inherently sins that separate one from full communion with the Church.

Abortion ONLY excommunicates because it is in Canon law; it excommunicates by the fact of committing the offense, but apart from the law, the offense does not excommunicate.

Re: “law” Canon law , and/or moral law, the CCC ties them together

• 2089 Apostasy, heresy, schism, they break the 1st commandment
• Enter the Catechism at this paragraph
• not to mention,[**Titus 3:10 ** (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)“As for a man who is factious ( [α (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm)ἱρετικὸ****ν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
• 2271 abortion breaks the 5th commandment
• Enter the Catechism at this paragraph

Latae Sententiae can cover many types of penalties (Excommunication, suspension, interdict, sanction, etc), I will just focus on excommunication latae sententiae

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of [⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_PP.HTM#1.0.0.9.2.3.194) can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in [⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4Y.HTM#6.1.0.4.2.0.1336) can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

 

[DavidFilmer]

[a train wreck of CCC and CIC citations]

Hey, Steve, I was thinking about how to port my magical CCC citing program to the Baltimore Catechism (I responded earlier to a Limbo thread where I was forced to resort to cut-and-paste). But I’m now thinking I should first expand it to cover the CIC instead.