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TheRealJuliane
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Why don’t you study apologetics? And the early Church fathers?
study of other subjects doesn’t go against the Church. You can do both, you just can’t pick and choose what you will and won’t support.
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study of other subjects doesn’t go against the Church. You can do both, you just can’t pick and choose what you will and won’t support.
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manualman
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This would be a fantastic argument if you and I were debating the merits of an institution founded, established and maintained solely by mere men. First Church of Manualman, perhaps. If that were the discussion at hand, you win, I lose big time. But that isn’t the discussion at hand.
The question at hand is whether my intellect, my conscience, my embrace of the vastness of creation in all its majesty and subtlety empowers me to contradict that which has been handed down by Christ to the apostles, to the early fathers, the saints and the doctors of the Church. It is correct to distinguish settled doctrine from authoritative discipline from conventional (but not authoritative) theological concepts. But you don’t seem to be doing that. You seem to toss it all up for grabs the same. I can’t comprehend that. (Maybe Vatican II DID succeed, eh?)
So to me, it seems to come down to thess questions: Did Jesus establish a Church to reliably shepherd his people to the truth and away from ruin or did he leave us to figure it out as best we can? Did He not warn us that the path to salvation is narrow and the road to ruin wide? Is it honest to accept religious teachings you find easy to accept but toss out whatever becomes hard to accept? Or is that lazy? What did Jesus say about that in John 6? Do you just leave your kids to figure out for themselves what is healthy and what is harmful? Are you a better father than the Father? Do I like leading questions?..
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newlywed8
Guest
Would the wrath of God be satisfied only by a human sacrifice, the torment and crucifixion of his only Son? Hm! That strikes me a primeval, like some pagan myth, but is it really Christian? I see Christ as a powerful symbol and reminder that many good people suffer and have suffered horrendously, sometimes innocents slain in ruthless warfare, sometimes the whipped and enslaved for their entire lives through, sometimes those sent to labor camps to die in Siberia or incinerated in Nazi gas chambers, sometimes ones crippled at birth or by some agonizing disease or condition, sometimes simply victims of extreme deprivation. The difference was that Christ would suffer physical pain for a short time and then rise and rule as the Supreme Lord in the celestial domain forever and ever, worshiped, indeed, by billions.
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**There is something about that scenario that bothers me.** It seems to me that God could have selected a different path to salvation. Condemning his own son to death (which it seems he did)? Actually, I think he laid out another pathway. When he was asked by a lawyer how to gain life eternal, he didn't answer by citing belief or dogma or church affiliation. He said to love God and one another, then illustrated it with the parable of the Good Samaritan.
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**But for those who can accept all the ancient traditions of the Church, God bless you.** If they provide courage and hope and comfort, fine. Stick with them. This vast universe is not we easy to understand, and we are like ants trying to describe a piano. I am sympathetic to efforts to explain it all. However, when this is accompanied by arrogance, condescension, and/or bigotry I must take exception.I wanted to put that out there because I feel saddened by the thought of you loosing faith in the Apostolic faith because of this interpretation. I am no theologian, but if you were interested in learning more about Eastern views, feel free to pm me.
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manualman
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Point of clarification. Are you saying that EO churches generally believe that nobody is in hell and everybody is in heaven? Or is this just phrased wrong?
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PJM
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***Roy dear friend, your speaking true; but that does not automatically make “it RIGHT.”
I don’t balme egotism; just a lack of Faith, a lack of Grace and a lack of Undersranting.No sane person can deny that “MEISM” rules today’s world. But that fact does not mean its what God wants, and therefore what we MUST seek.
Ever since Pope Paul the VI issued "Humanae Vitae"* [the Gospel of Life]; and a buch of “catholic” Theologians ran a full page AD in the NY Times; desent has been alive, well. THAT does make it permissible or RIGHT in God’s view. **
And your OWN opinion as stated in the closing comment of your post could not be more wrong in leading people in the wrong direction. NOT accoring to me; NO! Accoring to YOUR Bible and Our God!. SORRY
but it’s God who makes these calls not us. The fact that “we Can” has NEVER meant that we are entitled to.
**2Pet.2:1 **“*But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” ***Psalms 127:1 **
No where, not One Time does or has God ever permitted any set of beliefs other than HIS-OWN! Usurpation of GOD”S POWERS in not the way to heaven.
**Deut.30: 15, 19 **"See, I [Your God] have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, “ It’s OUR Choice!
Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”
Jesus Tells the Apostles: John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
**Romans 13: 2 **“Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
ONLY the CC, Only the Apostles and there successors have the AUTHORITY to TEACH; because THEY ALONE are protected by God Himself. Jn. 14:16-17; Jn.20:19-22; Jn.17:15-19.
Only the CC is GRANTED the MANDATE to Teach from Jesus Christ Himself.
**Mt. 10:1-8 **“And he called to him his twelve disciples [Apostles] and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And preach as you go, saying, **`The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons.” **
Mt. 16;18-19 “And I [GOD] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [You Peter Singular] ** I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.* I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven***, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
**Mt. 28:16, 18-20 **“ Now the eleven disciples [Apostles] went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you[MY APOSTLES and CC] ; *and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." *
May God grant you His Wisdom and His Understanding,
pat/PJM
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Roy5
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I appreciate the civility of most respondents. The issue seems to be authority. It’s true: I have trouble with a system, political or religious, that is top-down, that doesn’t make room for wide areas of dissent, for individual opinion and analysis.
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One further thought. Some seem to think that folks like me only would study the scriptures, the Church Fathers, the church doctors, etc., they would become faithful, non-doubting, believing-everything Catholics.
Actually, quite the reverse in my case. It was by studying scripture, reading the works of various Church Fathers, analyzing quite in depth and ove rmany years Church doctrine that my doubts grew. The Church Fathers, brilliant for their era, seemed so full of false information based on the age in which they lived. I recall how they assumed the sun revolved around the earth, that disease was caused by demons, and other false beliefs that were widespread during that age.
In fact, I wrote an undergraduate thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas (who came later, of course) and he was especially brilliant. Yet, I recall the shock when I came across the passage in his S. T. calling for the execution of heretics. I never again had quite the reverence for him or his writings.
It is wrong to assume that all dissenters like myself are dissenting because we don't know and understand the Bible or the teachings of the Magisterium. It is easier (in my view) to be a faithful Catholic the less you honestly delve into all this with an open mind.
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Abu
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Quite the contrary. Not only does reason and research show the historicity of the Gospels, but the Gospels themselves show clearly Christ establishing His Church and no other – the denigration of Christ by ridiculing His clear teaching is dishonest as post # 57 reveals.
Such myopia leads only to the destructive chaos of human self-will demonstrated by the many thousands of sects teaching differently and rejecting His sacraments, His Sacrifice of the Mass and the fullness of His teaching.
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newlywed8
Guest
I am no theologian, so please don’t accept my word as law. I will try to keep this brief.
In Eastern tradition our entire theology is expressed through liturgy and hours. In times past men would prepare to become priests by attending the vigils, hours, and liturgies the church offered to learn what the church has always taught. Our Pascal troparion says “by death he conquered death and to those in the grave he granted life”. We accept that at face value. Christ is victorious over Hell.
There is no question that Hell exists, but in general it is not viewed with the extreme perminance of the West. Our theology is based around a process of theosis - becoming like God - God became man so man might become God - and this process continues even after death. Sacraments, prayers, ect, all help us and others on the journey towards God. (This also is why many of our understandings concerning sin differ, though that is a different discussion). There are people who have cut themselves off completely from God, and thus, you might say, are in Hell. However, tradition from the desert fathers to Mount Athos today has stories of people being freed through Hell through the prayers of the church, though there is a requirement that they be receptive towards receiving the grace of God and journeying towards him. It is therefore possible that there are people who are not receptive of this grace and may remain there.
There have also been saints and theologians throughout time who have discussed the possibility of Hell not being permenant - St. Gregory of Nyssa in the past, Metropolitan Ware in the present.
I hope that helps. I do not want to derail the thread, pm me if would life to discuss this further!
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manualman
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Roy, I know you do encounter this mentality, and it is a shame that people would dismiss you as a person and all that you’ve learned and experienced because you draw different conclusions than they do. Hopefully, you don’t get that sense from me, because I’m trying to comprehend your point of view. In fact yours is quite similar to certain family members of mine with whom I butt heads regularly!
I’d like to challenge you to keep peeling the onion in regards to church history and theology. You’re on the right track, you’ve just cemented your opinions too soon. When you were a small child, you trusted what your parents told you to be true. When you became a teenager, you probably decided they were wrong more than they were right. When you became an adult, you were surprised at how smart they suddenly became again, right?
The Magisterium is the same way, but it keeps alternating the deeper you dive. It looks impeccable as a child or convert, it looks like a troop of fools as you learn a little, it looks sage and wise once you’ve burned your soul via avoidable sins a few times, it looks bad again when you learn how often the hierarchy failed to live by the principles they have taught. You seem stuck there. I would challenge you to continue peeling.
When you read the writings of a great saint or early father and compare them to today’s standards of culture, science and even morality in some cases, you cheat them. YES, morality is objective, not subjective. But by objective standards, we ALL deserve to go to hell, don’t we? What will allow you to truly appreciate the EFs and saints in spite of their continuing flaws is to educate yourself on the environment and culture in which they lived. Get fluent in that context and THEN look at the saint in question and you will see the hand of God guiding them towards the light.
For example, it’s not especially morally impressive for a white guy today in South Carolina to be vocally morally opposed to chattle slavery. But 150 years ago, it took guts and was extremely impressive. Same objective moral standard, big difference in courage and receptiveness to the quiet voice of the Holy Spirit necessary to live it out. Saints aren’t saints because they achieved perfection, they are saints because of how clear it was that Grace had profoundly changed them from who they once were and placed them on the trajectory that leads to perfection in Christ.
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PJM
Guest
Has it even occoured to dear friend that what your desenting from is Thee TRUTH. Not by my defination, but our God’s?
If you really do “know and UNDERSTAND” the bible; where is your justification?
May God guide you,
pat/PJM
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Roy5
Guest
PJM
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We disagree. I have no problem with that. You accept everything the Magisterium teaches, and I don't. So, I guess I'm a heretic.
Millions of Catholics must be heretics, perhaps even the majority of thinking Catholics. That certainly is my impression. They may love the Church and attend Mass, but not because of its doctrines, but because they find God and strength there.
Many of the doctrines are interesting but not that important. Was Mary immaculately conceived? Certainly that's not in the Bible. Indeed, her parents aren't even mentioned in the Bible. As I recall, this doctrine was not defined until 1864.
Was Mary assumed into heavy in a miraculous? Possible, but nothing in scripture to suggest that. This doctrine was not defined until 1950.
And we could go on, but what's the point? Your mind is made up. God bless you. Actually, I don't believe God cares either way. He regards us all as his children, and I include Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and those of every faith who love God and one another, That is the central message of Christianity, not those tangential dogmas and whatnot that are so divisive and irrelevant.
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Non_sum_dignus
Guest
To whom shall we go? The Church has the words of eternal life.
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Abu
Guest
No real Christian would care so little about Christ and His Church, to whom Christ affirmed “he that hears you hears Me” (Lk 10:16), and to His chosen Supreme Vicar St Peter: “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19).
That’s the God who doesn’t “care either way.”?
Christ is “so divisive and irrelevant” says Satan. Who is living in a dream underworld?
“If you love Me keep My Commandments.”
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PJM
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My friend the FACT that your correct and that MILLIONS choose to join you; will NOT alter what you and them [if unrepented] have chosen for afterlife. AMEN!
As to your final statement:
God desires to save everyone BUT On His terms and conditions. Accept or reject them is OUR choice. Actions Do have consequences. So why then are you even on this FORUM?
Deut.30: 15, 19 “See, I [YOUR GOD] have set before you this day life and good, death and evil… I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,”
I’ll pray for you Roy!
God Bless,
pat/PJM
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manualman
Guest
Roy, I really do get why you and many others reach this point. I do. An awful lot of catholics (not referring to anyone here right now!) behave as if they personally have figured everything out from scratch, are mighty proud of it and think you should be properly impressed by their achievement. That is a temptation of being priviledged to have received the gift of revelation. It’s a shame more of us don’t ponder more deeply the admonition “to whom much has been given, much will be expected…” Yikes.
But one cannot truly grow in love of God if one does not grow in knowledge about him. Properly understood, dogma reveals the character of God so that we may love him more fully and be conformed to his will and character. I again challenge you to grow beyond considering such things “tangential and irrelevant.” Don’t fall for the modern notion that goodness and niceness are the same thing. An awful lot of evil men in the world have impeccable manners and a trustworthy smile.
Thanks for the discussion.
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Roy5
Guest
PJM
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I note that you quote Deuteronomy. Fine. But, honestly, there is much in Deuteronomy that is rarely if ever quoted. Take Deut. 21:18-21, for example. Parents are instructed to take a rebellious son, bring him to the elders at the gate, and have him stoned to death. Hm! Great teaching from scripture?
Or. read chapter 22. How a woman must not wear men's clothing. Gosh, I see that all the time at Mass. Or, how about verse 21: "Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together." Etc,
Or chapter 22:20-21. If a woman is not a virgin at marriage she should be stoned to death.
And we could go on and on.
I worship the one true God and not scripture - well, certainly not the Old Testament which is full of genocide, brutality, plus plenty of myth. There are parts of the New Testament that are problems, too, as when Paul tells slaves to obey their masters and states that women should be silent in the churches. Women certainly read scriptures at Mass where I attend. Are that church and priest heretical, too?
I'm not nearly as concerned about doctrinal heresy as I am about pious arrogance, judgementalism, hypocrisy, lack of kindness, and bigotry.
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PJM
Guest
Roy my friend, IF YOU MAKE a NEW String on this, I’ll be happy to discuss it with you.
But it would be wrong to hijack this thread to do that.
IF you do, PLEASE let me know. I’ll look forward to hearing from you,
HOW DO YOU KNOW YOUR FOLLOWING ANY; MUCH LESS "THE TRUE GOD’ IF YOUR NOT FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE:shrug:
God Bless,
pat/PJM
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MarkInOregon
Guest
I thought the Church protected the teachings of Christ and the apostles and called us to be faithful to those teachings?
I thought the Church provided us with the liturgy, the sacraments and disciplines to help and assist us in being faithful to and living out the teachings of Christ and his apostles. No one complains about the stop sign at the end of the street and other rules of the road because they help us get to our destination safely–that’s all the Church does–it helps us get to heaven safely–through grace and the protection of Christs and the apostles teachings.
It does not call us to conformity–as you seem to think of it-- but to using our gifts in the best way we can while being faithful to the teachings of Christ and his apostles. You misrepresent the Church.
We too believe in a God who loves all and calls us all to him but this merciful and loving God calls us to sin no more (have you forgot that admonition to the woman caught in adultry?) he does not affirm us in whatever we choose to do–that’s simply what most people want today–it’s easier than taking up the cross and following Christ.
We too trust in his love and mercy because without it we could not acheive salvation but this idea that God loves everyone and is merciful so it doesn’t really matter what you do or believe is clearly not the message found in the Gospels and other NT writings.
Peace of Christ,
Mark
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livingwordunity
Guest
God of the Old Testament and God of the New Testament are not two different gods. The people of God are like a growing child with God as our Father. In the Old Testament the people of God were spiritually immature as a whole, so God was more about “don’t do this” and “don’t do that” and physical death is used as a sign of the spiritual death that sin can lead us to. The New Testament people of God were ready for deeper spiritual instructions on what to do. God became man, and Jesus raised the stakes and made it clear that we could end up in Heaven forever or in Hell forever depending on whether we choose good or evil. We need the Old Testament in order to understand and appreciate how God’s law and his love are fulfilled in the New Testament.
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PJM
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***Roy
You are Absolutely 100% incorrect in this personal understanding of YOURS!
Both the Bible and the RCC disagree completely with you and this “MEISM” position you express. I Am truly SORRY for you!
May God forgive and guide you!
pat/PJM***
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