am I inter-religious? buddhist> CHristian

[Contarini]

There might be a logico-emotional connection between belief in (1) a loving being who created the cosmos from nothing; and (2) each ‘person’ having only one ‘birth-life-death’ cycle.

The Dalai Lama was asking various Christian thinkers about the place rebirth or reincarnation might have played, or might play, within Christianity. He hasn’t been able to ask the Pope about this yet, but he did ask someone equally relevant, Bede Griffiths. According to the Dalai Lama, Bede Griffiths said that “from the Christian point of view, a belief in rebirth would undermine the force in one’s faith and practice. When you accept that this life, your individual existence, has been directly created and is like a direct gift from the Creator, it immediately creates a very special bond between you as an individual creature and the Creator. There’s a direct personal connection that gives you a sense of closeness and an intimacy with your Creator. A belief in rebirth would undermine that special relationship with the Creator.” [His Holiness the Dalai Lama. *The Good Heart: A Buddhist Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus

. Boston: Wisdom Publications. 1996. 59.]

That’s one way to understand why Christianity and rebirth might not fit. (Though I do think that there is no inherent contradiction between an idea of a loving, all-powerful entity, on the one hand, and rebirth/reincarnation, on the other. Hasidic Jews believe in a version of reincarnation, and they also believe in the Jewish ideas of deity.)

I would say that the main reason rebirth doesn’t fit in Christianity is the doctrine of the resurrection of the body. Which is perhaps a more specific statement of the basic principle articulated by Fr. Griffiths. Or perhaps resurrection of the body is more relevant with regard to Hinduism, and since Buddhism sees not only the body but also the soul as ever-changing and impermanent, the broader statement of Fr. Griffiths is more relevant there.

The Jewish belief in reincarnation (most prominent in modern times among the Hasidim but older than the modern Hasidic movement) does seem a bit of an anomaly. But both Jews and Christians have had tendencies in medieval and modern times to downplay the resurrection of the body. It’s harder for Christians to do because of Jesus.

Edwin

 

[Siddhartha]

I would say that the main reason rebirth doesn’t fit in Christianity is the doctrine of the resurrection of the body. Which is perhaps a more specific statement of the basic principle articulated by Fr. Griffiths. Or perhaps resurrection of the body is more relevant with regard to Hinduism, and since Buddhism sees not only the body but also the soul as ever-changing and impermanent, the broader statement of Fr. Griffiths is more relevant there.

The Jewish belief in reincarnation (most prominent in modern times among the Hasidim but older than the modern Hasidic movement) does seem a bit of an anomaly. But both Jews and Christians have had tendencies in medieval and modern times to downplay the resurrection of the body. It’s harder for Christians to do because of Jesus.

Edwin

The Hasidim see reincarnation as a process that would ultimately end, say, in the resurrection, so there would not be any inherent contradiction between resurrection and reincarnation.

 

[4EverHis]

Daedelus,

The foundation of Christianity is God’s love, and love of neighbour. These two things are connected… the reason we focus on individual salvation so much, is because we believe that we ourselves need to be transformed in order for the world to be transformed… the evil is within us, in sin. We can see this in the Saints…they were changed by God and then were able to help others come closer to Him

Christianity is at its core a love story, in a way… it’s about how we left God, but He loved us so much that:

• He become human to unite humanity with Himself (this bridged the ‘gap’ between God and the human race)
• died for our sins
• and then rose on the last day, so that in Him, we can have eternal life also. We were made to be immortal, but when Adam and Eve sinned, that brought death and illness and suffering… how? because before the fall, our souls were subject to God, and our bodies subject to our souls… sin destroyed this order and created disharmony between everything; in ourselves and between individuals, and most importantly it took us away from God.

The way I see it, other religions are man trying to find God… Christianity is God trying to find man.

the reason God in the Old Testament seems “angry” is just because at that time, the human race still lived in separation from God (before Christ and redemption) and the OT shows the state of the human race and our interaction with God… He used that time to prepare the world for Christ and to tell the Israelites (the chosen people, cause Christ was born among them) about good and evil. (morality). They turned away from Him a lot and had to face the consequences…not because He punished them, but because He was disciplining them. You might say, the OT is a story of how God prepared the world for Christ and disciplined for people… the NT is the story of God’s mercy. But it’s the same God there are more sides to Him than we think… He is infinite, our minds can’t really grasp Him.

You mentioned Christian worship… our worship is meant to lift our minds to God and to connect more with Him. The purpose of Christian meditation, for example is not to find calm and peace, but to find God who is the source of peace… our end here is finding God… we don’t seek anything else in worship, not feelings or anything… rather, we shoudn’t. We just try to love Him

Christianity is just about God loving us, and us loving Him back, and getting transformed by grace so that we can have union with Him… and this transformation helps us to also love our neighbour and even enemies.

I suggest that you look deeper into Christianity and perhaps read what the Saints wrote here’s one of my favourite Saints and some of his quotes… padrepiodevotions.org/wordsoffaith.asp

God bless.

 

[4EverHis]

I also suggest just looking for the TRUTH… not for what ‘fits you’ best, but for what the truth is

God bless.

 

[4EverHis]

Christianity almost totally lacks meditation, at least for lay people.

not true…

Christian meditation is different, in that we don’t try to empty the mind, but to fill it…and the end result is greater love for God, not spiritual experiences. (although they may come up…we don’t seek them, to avoid deception)

I find in Protestant Christianity there is barely any meditation, but there’s quite a bit in Catholicism:

the Rosary
contemplation (St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross)
Adoration
meditation on Scripture, on God’s attributes, on the Passion, on the Sorrows of Our Lady, etc.

all is meant to bring us closer to God, and often He speaks to people during meditation/contemplation… just read about the Saints

 

[Contarini]

The Hasidim see reincarnation as a process that would ultimately end, say, in the resurrection

But what is raised? If a person has had several different bodies, which one is raised? The point I’m making is that for Christians–and I think for many Jews as well–the human person is a soul-body composite. The body, even though it changes over time, is part of the unique human identity. The soul is not the sort of thing that can just be plugged into a different body.

Edwin

 

[Daedelus76]

It’s not entirely clear that they thought this, though. Clearly Gnosticism as reported by orthodox Christians sounds like a kind of caricature of Buddhism. But it’s hard to be sure how much of the caricature is in the minds of the Gnostics and how much is in the minds of their orthodox opponents…
Edwin

I think alot of early orthodox did charicature Gnosticism. I’m not even sure that Jesus himself didn’t say some “gnostic” things. If you want to read the Gospel of John in a broad way, in fact, it’s almost like Jesus is talking about something very mystical, almost like Neo-Platonism (“becomming one with God”). But, the praxis Jesus is talking about seems much more broadly applicable.

It’s interesting to hear commentaries on the Gospels by non-Christians, particularly Buddhists. They sometimes find whole new takes on things that Christians, with their theological baggage, often miss.

And, if Gandhi is saved, then that salvation would be the direct result of the work of Christ. But such salvation doesn’t require formal membership in Christianity, or formal believe in Christian doctrines.

This seems to be a problem for me, maybe I am skirting around heresy here. The way I came to have any kind of belief in the Jesus Christ was the idea moreso that the Cross represents the nature of God, rather than God in any way changing his attitude towards human beings (i tend to reject any legal ideas of the Cross as anything but a metaphor, and definitely I reject penal substitution). So my views of the Cross are more Eastern or Liberal/mainline Protestant. Saying Gandhi would be saved “through the work of Christ” can only be true in that case, in a very abstract/mystical, strained sense.

I don’t understand how Buddhist meditation can really work within Christianity. I will admit, I’m not 100% familiar with it, but the goal is to reach enlightenment, isn’t it? How does that fit within a Christian framework? .

In Mahayana Buddhism in a traditional religious context (not the highly humanistic, intellectualized Buddhism popular with some in the US), self-enlightenment is usually at least, putatively rejected, at least for this lifetime (when a monk dies, sometimes they will say “May he come back riding on his vows”). It’s not done for rational reasons, but out of an appeal to the heart. So in Mahayana, you meditate to become “charged” with wisdom, and you embody that in your activity as compassion. It’s not something that is compelled but it’s an act of “grace” on the part of the person doing it. So the ego or a persons individuality is “redeemed”, it’s sanctified for the sole purpose of liberating other beings from suffering. (that’s my attempt at using Christian language to describe Buddhist concepts). Plus, there are whole schools of Buddhism that basicly equate faith or entrusting with the enlightened mind itself (and differ over the faith/works question as well, just like in Christianity). And, just like in Christianity, suffering can even take on a bit of a sacred dimension, though the image of a holy being suffering is a bit puzzling to Buddhists in terms of their sentiments (they tend to imagine holy beings up in blissful heavens pouring down compassion towards earth, not comming down to earth and being bloodied and killed, probably because Buddhism starts with an uglier image of reality than Christianity does.

Resurrection and reincarnation were talked about by several people. Actually, I see intellectual problems with both, in Christianity and Buddhism, respectively. Neither one makes perfect sense to me (especially when some Christians make it sound like they imagine a “zombie movie” take on it, with dead people crawling out of their graves- Aquinas views of the resurrected body and its properties, OTOH, point to something that sees to transcend those kinds of crude images). However, reincarnation makes even less sense to me, the more I got into Buddhism (I think it speaks to the heart, again, not the intellect). Many Jews believe in reincarnation and resurrection, but I suspect they can’t rationally figure it out either, and just trust in God to sort it out.