Am I married?

[rmpaul]

I’m getting mixed answers and mixed signals; no wonder people get frustrated with the Church. I think we make it harder than Jesus intended! :banghead:

My husband (whom I believe to be my lawfully wedded husband) and I have both received the Sacraments of Baptism, Reconciliation, Communion and Confirmation in the Cathlic church at very young ages. Neither of us were raised in the Church. We married in a Christian church in the presence of God. Does the Church recognize our marriage? If not, please point it out in scripture, or tell me how the Church gets this from scripture.

We have children being raised in the Catholic faith. I’m trying to learn now what I didn’t learn as a youth and I get more questions than answers!

PS: We are in the process of having our marriage validated on our 25th anniversay next month.

 

[John_Higgins]

rmpaul:

Does the Church recognize our marriage?

The Church would say, unless you formally left the Catholic Church, you as Catholics were obliged to be married in the presence of a Catholic priest or deacon. If you did not, that is considered a defect of form. I do not know how they justify it scripturally. Without proper form, however, it is not considered a sacramental marriage.

A funny story for me. When I was just about engaged I realized that I could have married a married woman friend of mine (Catholic, but did not marry in the Church), but I couldn’t marry the divorced Methodist woman I eventually did marry without her getting an annulment (She did get the annulment.). I understand the process, but it does seem weird at times.

So your validation will be your first sacramental marriage. Cool.

John

 

[Marie]

rmpaul:

I’m getting mixed answers and mixed signals; no wonder people get frustrated with the Church. I think we make it harder than Jesus intended! :banghead:

My husband (whom I believe to be my lawfully wedded husband) and I have both received the Sacraments of Baptism, Reconciliation, Communion and Confirmation in the Cathlic church at very young ages. Neither of us were raised in the Church. We married in a Christian church in the presence of God. Does the Church recognize our marriage? If not, please point it out in scripture, or tell me how the Church gets this from scripture.

Yes, you are well and truly married Civilly. Congrats on your 25th.

As to being sacramentally married…no, you are not but the validation will take care of that.

Not sure but I believe your marriage falls under the dispensation called *sanatio in radice * which consists in the revalidation of a marriage by reason of a consent formerly given, but ineffective at the time owing to some ecclesiastical impediment. (It was non-sacramental) When the impediment is removed, the consent is ipso facto ratified and no renovation is required. In such a case, it is requisite that the consent of both parties to the marriage had not ceased and that their wedlock had had the external appearance of a true marriage.(Which your certainly appears to have.)

 

[JimG]

So their marriage is valid but not sacramental. (But that is obvious since they weren’t married in the Catholic church.)

But it will soon be sacramental as well. Sounds pretty straightforward.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

JimG:

So their marriage is valid but not sacramental. (But that is obvious since they weren’t married in the Catholic church.)

But it will soon be sacramental as well. Sounds pretty straightforward.

Their Marriage is valid only according to the civil law. According to Catholic Church Law it is not valid. ( A Marriage cannot be Sacramental unless it is also valid and a valid Marriage between two validly Baptized persons is always Sacramental) I believe what Marie posted is correct the Church will recognize the Consent given 25 years ago since there is no evidence to the effect that that consent was not given freely or revoked.

 

[Catholic2003]

Marie:

Not sure but I believe your marriage falls under the dispensation called *sanatio in radice * which consists in the revalidation of a marriage by reason of a consent formerly given, but ineffective at the time owing to some ecclesiastical impediment. (It was non-sacramental)

Sanatio in radice (retroactive validation) must be granted by the bishop; it is not automatic by any means.

Marie:

When the impediment is removed, the consent is ipso facto ratified and no renovation is required. In such a case, it is requisite that the consent of both parties to the marriage had not ceased and that their wedlock had had the external appearance of a true marriage.(Which your certainly appears to have.)

This is only true if both parties are non-Catholic. If one or both of the parties is Catholic, an explicit renewal of consent is required for convalidation.

You are correct that sanatio in radice does not require an explicit renewal of consent, only that the consent is still valid.

 

[JimG]

Br. Rich SFO:

Their Marriage is valid only according to the civil law. According to Catholic Church Law it is not valid. ( A Marriage cannot be Sacramental unless it is also valid and a valid Marriage between two validly Baptized persons is always Sacramental) I believe what Marie posted is correct the Church will recognize the Consent given 25 years ago since there is no evidence to the effect that that consent was not given freely or revoked.

Thanks for the clarification. I take it that the invalidity is because they were both Catholics (though not practicing) and thus subject to Catholic marriage law?

So they are validly married civilly;
not validly married under Canon Law;
not sacramentally married.

When the church validation occurs, they will be civilly, canonically, and sacramentally married. Is that right?

 

[puzzleannie]

gee, why don’t you post a poll? repeat repeat repeat, go to the priest or deacon in your parish who is responsible for marriage preparation (not a lay person) and ask this question, if necessary go to the person in the diocese who is the designated judge of marriage valididty, every situation is different. We can all quote canon law at you, which will only confuse you more, about hypothetical cases. Why not go to the experts, get a decision, find out what the remedy is, and take care of the matter?

 

[Marie]

puzzleannie:

gee, why don’t you post a poll? repeat repeat repeat, go to the priest or deacon in your parish who is responsible for marriage preparation (not a lay person) and ask this question, if necessary go to the person in the diocese who is the designated judge of marriage valididty, every situation is different. We can all quote canon law at you, which will only confuse you more, about hypothetical cases. Why not go to the experts, get a decision, find out what the remedy is, and take care of the matter?

She is already doing that (seeing a priest - dealing with the Bishop) and the marriage is being validated next month. Your sarcasim is out of place. If she wish’s to ask about the process and why it is so difficult from others perspectives, I see no reason she cannot do so. She is on the right track with the process so chill out.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

rmpaul:

Does the Church recognize our marriage? If not, please point it out in scripture, or tell me how the Church gets this from scripture.

We have children being raised in the Catholic faith. I’m trying to learn now what I didn’t learn as a youth and I get more questions than answers!

PS: We are in the process of having our marriage validated on our 25th anniversay next month.

You asked for something in the Scriptures that would apply to this. The passage that came to mind was the “woman at the well” As Christ points out “The one you are living with now is not your husband” there are many cases where people are living together and acting as though they were husband and wife. Who in reality are not, except only in outward appearance.

It must be remembered that individual cases are very unique. None of us should be commenting on your specific case except in a general way. I would think that Radical Sanation would seem to apply to this sitution. Get the Marriage validated now so the persons can return to the Sacraments and renew the vows on the 25th. My own opinion since I do not have all the details.

 

[rjmporter]

The original question was, if I may paraphrase : Where from scripture does the chruch find validation for such a seemingly complex process, wouldn’t Jesus want it to be more simple?

I would say the short answer is that Jesus gave his apostles the power to bind and to loose. Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:18. So the Chruch can “hold us bound” to its form of Marriage, which it does for the good reason of preserving the dignity of Marriage. The church can also let us “loose” from its form of marriage (before the marriage actually takes place) with a dispensation from form.

I believe it is clear from scripture that Christ delegated his own authority over the church (on earth) to the apostles. They in turn delegated their authority to the bishops on through the ages (we call it apostolic succession).

The chuch then has the authority to regulate the sacraments (bind and loose) and Catholics are required to respect that authority (as it is Christ’s authority).

Hope this helps. I will pray for you and your situation.

May God Bless you
And may all the saints in light
lift up your intention in prayer.

Ross

 

[rmpaul]

puzzleannie:

gee, why don’t you post a poll? repeat repeat repeat, go to the priest or deacon in your parish who is responsible for marriage preparation (not a lay person) and ask this question, if necessary go to the person in the diocese who is the designated judge of marriage valididty, every situation is different. We can all quote canon law at you, which will only confuse you more, about hypothetical cases. Why not go to the experts, get a decision, find out what the remedy is, and take care of the matter?

THAT’s THE PROBLEM! I’m sorry I asked. Everybody’s got an opinion and I don’t understand half of them. As far as I’m concerned, I’m married. God knows it, Jesus knows, hubby & I know it, the guv knows it…it’s just the Catholic Church that doesn’t accept it. Whew! Like I said, no wonder people get frustrated with the Church! :whacky: I’m sure Jesus didn’t intend for things to get so complicated!

 

[rmpaul]

Marie:

She is already doing that (seeing a priest - dealing with the Bishop) and the marriage is being validated next month. Your sarcasim is out of place. If she wish’s to ask about the process and why it is so difficult from others perspectives, I see no reason she cannot do so. She is on the right track with the process so chill out.

Thank you, Marie, and those of you with sincere answers. It’s a little disheartening to come to a place to find answers and receive attitudes such as puzzleannie’s. I personally don’t see the need for the sarcasm either. She doesn’t have to stay if she doesn’t like the topic. We all have gifts, and I appreciate the help of those that are willing to share their knowledge. My gifts lie elsewhere, outside of knowing canon law. No reason for anyone to get uppity,though.