Am I still allowed in?

[plinko]

I’ve done a lot of thinking recently and I’ve come to this conclusion: I believe every word of the Nicene Creed, but on issues of morality, I deviate from the Church. I’m against abortion and capital punishment but I support gay rights, condoms, the big bang theory (no intelligent design), impotent marriages, and little “sins” like accidentally taking a pen from the bank (well, “support” isn’t the right word for that last one, but you know what I mean) So can I still call myself a Catholic? I truly “believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God…in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…” ALL of that… I just have a problem with the non-core beliefs.

 

[choy]

I’ve done a lot of thinking recently and I’ve come to this conclusion: I believe every word of the Nicene Creed, but on issues of morality, I deviate from the Church. I’m against abortion and capital punishment but I support gay rights, condoms, the big bang theory (no intelligent design), impotent marriages, and little “sins” like accidentally taking a pen from the bank (well, “support” isn’t the right word for that last one, but you know what I mean) So can I still call myself a Catholic? I truly “believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God…in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…” ALL of that… I just have a problem with the non-core beliefs.

wait, whats wrong about impotent marriage? unless you mean that they would resort to surrogate moms or IVF. but the Church is not against impotent people getting married. given that they still have the biological pre-requisites to concieve, God can still grant them children.

believing in the Nicene Creed is only the basics of the faith. you have to be in full communion with the Church, which means you have to share the views of the Church in all the issues you have mentioned. if you don’t, then you cannot be one with the Church, and if you are not one with the Church, then you’re not really Catholic

 

[shondrea]

Impotent and infertile aren’t the same things, I believe

 

[choy]

you’re right

sorry, late at night, brain not at 100%

but still, what’s wrong if you’re impotent? same thing, you still have the “tools” for procreation, if God so wills, He will make it happen. besides, i don’t think taking viagra is a sin, especially if the intention is procreation. or whatever treatment there is to help you achieve that

its grounds for annulment only if you are aware of it before the marriage and kept it from your wife. but if you provide full disclosure and your fiancee accepts it, then all is well

 

[Orleans_Attny]

wait, whats wrong about impotent marriage? unless you mean that they would resort to surrogate moms or IVF. but the Church is not against impotent people getting married. given that they still have the biological pre-requisites to concieve, God can still grant them children.

believing in the Nicene Creed is only the basics of the faith. you have to be in full communion with the Church, which means you have to share the views of the Church in all the issues you have mentioned. if you don’t, then you cannot be one with the Church, and if you are not one with the Church, then you’re not really Catholic

Judging that someone isn’t really a Catholic is going a bit too far. Certainly there are a lot, nay, oodles of lapsed Catholics that are still Catholic. The OP raises issues where his or her personal experiences have led to a belief that might be in opposition to Church doctrine or dogma. That doesn’t mean he or she isn’t a Catholic, but it might mean that he or she is struggling with some moral or political issues.

Do those issues amount to an excommunication? The answer is, “No.”

Pax,
OA

 

[choy]

the issues that have been listed are crucial to every Catholic’s belief

from God the creator of everything, to birth control, same sex marriage.

if you don’t agree with the Church on these issues, you are not part of the Church

 

[Orleans_Attny]

the issues that have been listed are crucial to every Catholic’s belief

from God the creator of everything, to birth control, same sex marriage.

if you don’t agree with the Church on these issues, you are not part of the Church

Use of condoms is a moral issue. And though it’s a sin it’s similar in nature to a vascetomy, “pull and pray”, and oral sex. In the manner described, it is not in the same set as abortion.

The OP said that he or she believes every word of the Nicene Creed “I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. . …” So that’s not a problem. The Church doesn’t teach that evolution or the “Big Bang Theory” are against dogma.

Same sex marriage, is a political issue that relates back to Church teachings on the sacraments and sexual morality (in the same vein as birth control as I discussed above). I don’t believe the OP indicated he or she was in favor of granting homosexuals the ability to receive the sacrament of marriage within the Church. In fact, he or she said “gay rights” and that could mean something as simple as equal opportunity to employment or health-care benefits.

Again, it is not to us to decide who is within or without the Church.

Pax,
OA

 

[Myqyl]

I for one will gladly call you a fellow Catholic. Some of your beliefs may be sins, I’m not sure…

But let they that are without sin post the first stone.

God bless.

 

[Moscati]

Why put condoms, etc in a list with the big bang theory? Big bang was actually first thought of by a Catholic, you know.

 

[JRKH]

I’ve done a lot of thinking recently and I’ve come to this conclusion: I believe every word of the Nicene Creed, but on issues of morality, I deviate from the Church. I’m against abortion and capital punishment but I support gay rights, condoms, the big bang theory (no intelligent design), impotent marriages, and little “sins” like accidentally taking a pen from the bank (well, “support” isn’t the right word for that last one, but you know what I mean) So can I still call myself a Catholic? I truly “believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God…in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…” ALL of that… I just have a problem with the non-core beliefs.

I hate to break the bad news to you but you evidently DO NOT believe everything in the creed. You do NOT believe in the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”.
You accept the church in that you see that it exists and it is basically good, but you do not believe in her. That she is the Church that Christ established with full authority to Bind and Loose (Mt 16 :18-19; Mt 18:15-18) and to determine which sins are forgiven and which sins are retained (Jn 20:21-23). No - You do not believe every word of the Nicene Creed.

As to whether you can still call yourself catholic, well many like yourself do and technically you will remain a catholic all your life by virtue of your baptism. However I find it rather disingenuous to call ones self catholic while rejecting the teachings of the Church, especially if one expresses those disagreements publically. It gives the wrong impression of Church teachings to those interested. Many’s the time we have non-catholics come here thinking they know what the Church teaches because they, “heard it from a catholic”, only to find that they were misinformed by some “Cafeteria Catholic”.

I would prefer it if people who do not fully embrase the teachings of the Church, and plan to voice their objections publically, explain that they were “raised catholic” or just call themselves “christian”. If the person is willing to keep their doubts private (while continuing to study and discern) and to defend Church teachings in public then they may call themselves Catholic.

As to the examples given -
Gay Rights - It is perfectly acceptable to support people with SSA (see CCC 2358) but it is not alright to condone their sin. That includes voting in such a way that would approve of the sinful activity.
Condoms - They make the act of intercourse not open to life which is the natural function of intercourse. Other methods are available for birth planning and disease control.
Intelligent design - The Big Bang is not inconsistant with “intelligent design”. Nor is evolution
Impotent Marriages - Each case needs to be looked at on its’ particular merits
“Little Sins” - Remain an offense to God who, if you believe in Christ and His Teachings, you should Love with all of your being. Do you thinkit perfectly OK to offend such a one, even in a small way?

Each of the above can easily be it’s own thread, and has been here. A quick search will turn up many - many hits. But if you’d like to pursue them further please feel free to start another.

Peace
James

 

[OraLabora]

You don’t need to believe in “intelligent design” to be Catholic. Catholics can believe in the theory of evolution.

As for the other stumbling blocks… it’s a faith walk, an evolution that brings us closer to God. To say that someone is closed off from being Catholic because they don’t accept 100% of the teachings is to slam the door in their face for a possible evolution. Many cradle Catholics themselves take years if not decades to come to fully accept the teachings.

We can’t underestimate the role of the Holy Spirit. Admitting someone not in 100% acceptance of the teachings of the Church is opening the window to allow the Holy Spirit to blow onto the soul of the convert and finish the process of discernment. We should accept the OP with open arms. Is he(she?) more likely to learn the Truth from outside, or from inside? I am a cradle Catholic. I even rebelled and left the Church for 22 years. I came back about 13 years ago. I still struggle with some concepts but in the spirit of obedience to a benevolent father, I hang in there, and over time, some concepts that were difficult for me to accept, I can now probably stand up and defend with vigor.

Sainthood requires effort. In fact sainthood is in the effort. To think that all of us are 100% in conformance with 100% of Catholic truths from the get-go is ridiculous.

If the OP is willing to join with an open mind and is prepared to make the effort to study why the Church teaches what she does, I’d say let him(her?) in. The chances of reaching the truth from within should theoretically be easier than from without.

 

[The_Geographer]

If I enter into marriage with my wife, and I say it is okay for me to dump her for a younger woman because my wife didn’t live up to keeping herself up.

What if I decide that I want multiple wives or a concubine, would that be any different?

What if I choose to believe that Jesus is only God or just a man?

What if I choose to not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

We could do this all day and at the end of the day you would be saying that you want to convert to Catholicism so that you can be a heretic. Is that what you really want to be? The Catholic Church may NOT want someone to convert that does not accept the teachings of the Church because that would place a heavy burden upon your soul. You are not Catholic and are not showing any signs of wanting to be truly Catholic. So why are you going forward through it? You action to convert would scandalize many of us.

Gay rights. Do you also support animal rights? How about tree rights? Of course you should respect and value the dignity of persons who identify themselves as gay. But we must not agree or accept that they have a right to marry. Jesus says this is a grave sin. We are to hate the sin but love the sinner. There would be no difference in you saying I don’t believe in life long marriage or something similar. Sure slight twists but really along the same line.

So you are saying you don’t believe what is written in sacred scripture or the Sacred Tradition or the Majesterium. With your comments you are saying that you don’t believe and therefore would be committing a sin to become Catholic in that you are saying you don’t believe it.

My advice would be to really contemplate on these things before you are confirmed. Everyone that is validly baptized is Catholic even if they don’t know it. But to be confirmed is to say I Believe. So why would you want to lie to God and us?

 

[The_Geographer]

I’ve done a lot of thinking recently and I’ve come to this conclusion: I believe every word of the Nicene Creed, but on issues of morality, I deviate from the Church.

I’m against abortion and capital punishment
Not necessary.
but I support gay rights,
How much money do you give them?

condoms,
As long as you cut a hole in the end there would be no problem.

the big bang theory (no intelligent design),
So you don’t think God is intelligent?

impotent marriages, and
You don’t think marriage is important?

little “sins” like accidentally taking a pen from the bank (well, “support” isn’t the right word for that last one, but you know what I mean)
Then you don’t mind me taking your candy bar at work. Thanks.

So can I still call myself a Catholic? I truly “believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God…in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…” ALL of that… I just have a problem with the non-core beliefs.

You sound like many lame Catholics already. You already in dissent. You don’t believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So you’re willing to lie to become a Catholic. You want to enter the Church as a liar and in mortal sin? You’ll fit right in there. Join the crowd that chased me away from the Church… Be one of the many that scandalize the Church. Is that the label you want to carry? Become one of those that I dedicate to fight just as much as I stand in front of an abortion clinic. Maybe I can stand in front of your house one day when you openly make false claims.

 

[CatofAlexandria]

As other posters have said, some of these issues are not as “big,” but others might separate you from God in sin, and from the fullness and richness of the seamless Catholic faith. The Big Bang Theory, for one, and the theory of evolution are perfectly acceptable scientific theories for a Catholic to accept. One of my majors in undergrad was evolutionary biology! It hasn’t obstructed my belief in God the Creator or endangered my status as a Catholic. The Church tends not to make pure scientific stances (despite popular myth). It’s just wrong to substitute the science for theology.

Second: gay rights? Do you mean just gay civil rights, as in the right to health care benefits (as another poster has mentioned), hospital visits, etc.? That might not be in tension with your Catholic faith. Catholics believe that people with same sex attraction are persons deserving of civil rights, we just think that homosexual acts are a grave sin contrary to natural law, and do not recognize a marriage that cannot be ordered towards procreation.

True “impotent marriages” are rare (in the sense that you are talking about), for medical means of curing this problem are morally acceptable. And the little “sins” like not stealing pens from a bank? Well, lots of people differ when it comes to certain venial sins. That’s why it’s good to go to Mass, read scripture, pray, and develop your conscious – to condition yourself to recognize these things.

Now, if you believe in fully “impotent marriages,” that homosexual acts should be considered marital acts, and that condoms are morally acceptable, then it seems that you really only truly and dangerously disagree with the Church on one important and primary doctrine, and that is the purpose and nature of sex and marriage. I suggest you read some Theology of the Body, Humanae Vitae, etc. (even Aristotle!). If you want to part with the Church on something, you’d better know the reasons, right? This shouldn’t be something you just shrug off based on intuition.

I hope you find your way home. God bless.

 

[puzzleannie]

… I just have a problem with the non-core beliefs.

read the Creed again, the part about “I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.” That means you accept as a core belief that the Church is the institution on earth founded by God for the purpose of transmitting his revelation and interpreting his teaching, protected and guided by the Holy Spirit, in whom you also profess belief.

Yes you can become Catholic if there are still teachings you do not understand, and do not yet accept because you do not understand them fully (comparing picking up a pen from the bank with gay marriage, and ID which is not even church teaching, demonstrates how deep your own misunderstanding is) but if you profess the Creed you must also profess and believe that the Church in her magesterial authority is the final and sole interpreter on earth for understanding God’s will in these matters, your personal opinion carries no weight. You further when you join the Church assume the obligation of informing and educating yourself on these teachings, and forming your own conscience accordingly to govern your own actions.

welcome home.

it takes time, for all of us, cradle Catholics and newcomers, to see and understand, that is why the childlike faith of simply accepting and believing is so close to the saints

and yes, all the baptized are part of the Church, even those not fully in communion, such as myself when I fall into personal sin, such as one who sincerely follows teachings of another Christian denomination, or one whose understanding and formation have not “caught up yet.”

PS no CAF poster (unless Pope Benedict is lurking under another name) has the authority to tell any individual “you are not a member of the Church” or “you are a heretic” so blow those comments off.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

I’ve done a lot of thinking recently and I’ve come to this conclusion: I believe every word of the Nicene Creed, but on issues of morality, I deviate from the Church.

I’m against abortion and capital punishment
Not necessary.
but I support gay rights,
How much money do you give them?

condoms,
As long as you cut a hole in the end there would be no problem.

the big bang theory (no intelligent design),
So you don’t think God is intelligent?

impotent marriages, and
You don’t think marriage is important?

little “sins” like accidentally taking a pen from the bank (well, “support” isn’t the right word for that last one, but you know what I mean)
Then you don’t mind me taking your candy bar at work. Thanks.

So can I still call myself a Catholic? I truly “believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God…in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…” ALL of that… I just have a problem with the non-core beliefs.

You sound like many lame Catholics already. You already in dissent. You don’t believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So you’re willing to lie to become a Catholic. You want to enter the Church as a liar and in mortal sin? You’ll fit right in there. Join the crowd that chased me away from the Church… Be one of the many that scandalize the Church. Is that the label you want to carry? Become one of those that I dedicate to fight just as much as I stand in front of an abortion clinic. Maybe I can stand in front of your house one day when you openly make false claims.

Geographer,

What exactly is your goal here? Consider your words and the need to be charitable to those who are not, perhaps, as excellent in the practice of your faith as you believe you are. You’ve gone far beyond telling someone what they need to hear in order for them to help themselves.

Does the OP have problems with Catholic doctrine or dogma? Apparently. Does that mean they need to be horse whipped and admonished because they still want to call themselves a Catholic? Of course not.

I hope that you’ll consider what you’ve written and give great thought to how best help someone who is struggling with aspects of our faith. After all, don’t we all struggle at times?

BREAK

To the OP: Don’t give up on this journey. Some of your beliefs are inconsistent with Church teaching. But almost all of us have gone through times where our personal beliefs didn’t comply 100% with Church teachings. Many of us eventually came into alignment. And that’s not because we were brow beaten or because we wanted to check the “Catholic” block on the census document. It’s because as we age we continue to learn, to understand, and to gain wisdom.

May God’s grace be upon you during your journey.

Pax,
OA

PS: When I chose to convert as a teen, one of the biggest differences I saw between my Baptist church and the Catholic Church was the latter’s ability to welcome everyone and anyone. No homosexual couple I know could walk into a Baptist church, enjoy the service and be comfortable. Yet I’ve never been in a Catholic Church that where that same couple couldn’t come and comfortably worship. How much more proof did I need that the Catholic Church was the true Church?

Pax,
OA

 

[camerong]

I agree with the above poster about this being a journey.

I decided to convert to Catholicism not because I was convinced it was true, but because my wife was Catholic and I thought it would be better to share a faith. Two months before I actually joined, I was convinced the Church was right, but I didn’t believe in Hell, I supported gay marriage, I wasn’t sure about condom use. Today, one day short of one year since I became Catholic, and there is not a single issue on which I disagree with the Church. And its not as if I have become brainwashed or bullied in the meantime, but rather I have studied these issues from the perspective of an objective morality and truth–i.e. Christ Himself–and am now far more firmly convinced on these topics than I ever was when I thought the opposite.

Just don’t put boundaries on the Holy Spirit working in your life because of certain beliefs you hold. No doubt, your beliefs have changed over the years? Does anything make you think the few, relatively minor beliefs you mentioned (those which conflict with the Church, not evolution and such) are more important than the knowledge that Christ is God and the Church is Christ?

 

[Doc_Keele]

I agree with the above poster about this being a journey.

I decided to convert to Catholicism not because I was convinced it was true, but because my wife was Catholic and I thought it would be better to share a faith. Two months before I actually joined, I was convinced the Church was right, but I didn’t believe in Hell, I supported gay marriage, I wasn’t sure about condom use. Today, one day short of one year since I became Catholic, and there is not a single issue on which I disagree with the Church. And its not as if I have become brainwashed or bullied in the meantime, but rather I have studied these issues from the perspective of an objective morality and truth–i.e. Christ Himself–and am now far more firmly convinced on these topics than I ever was when I thought the opposite.

Just don’t put boundaries on the Holy Spirit working in your life because of certain beliefs you hold. No doubt, your beliefs have changed over the years? Does anything make you think the few, relatively minor beliefs you mentioned (those which conflict with the Church, not evolution and such) are more important than the knowledge that Christ is God and the Church is Christ?

A very thoughtful, encouraging and most of all inclusive post:thumbsup:
This is the sort of thing I believe Christ would have us say.

 

[JRKH]

The two posts above are good ones.
I would just like to add that it is important to understand that the OP is asking if he/she can still call themselves catholic while holding these opposing views.
My concern here is not with someone who “struggles” with learning and understanding the faith (which I do as well). No - my concern is with those who misrepresent Church teaching publically by claiming to be catholic and publically standing in opposition to The Church.

I will give an example from myself.
I do not fully understand the “Immacuate Conception”. I understand the line of reasoning, but I do not understand why The Church teaches it as a required belief for salvation. That being said, I accept the belief because The Church says so and I would not present that it is acceptable for a Catholic to reject the Immaculate Conception. Any doubts I have are private to myself and to God.

Private doubts, concerns, etc are one thing. Professing these doubts publically is another.

peace
James

 

[OraLabora]

I agree with the above poster about this being a journey.

I decided to convert to Catholicism not because I was convinced it was true, but because my wife was Catholic and I thought it would be better to share a faith. Two months before I actually joined, I was convinced the Church was right, but I didn’t believe in Hell, I supported gay marriage, I wasn’t sure about condom use. Today, one day short of one year since I became Catholic, and there is not a single issue on which I disagree with the Church. And its not as if I have become brainwashed or bullied in the meantime, but rather I have studied these issues from the perspective of an objective morality and truth–i.e. Christ Himself–and am now far more firmly convinced on these topics than I ever was when I thought the opposite.

Just don’t put boundaries on the Holy Spirit working in your life because of certain beliefs you hold. No doubt, your beliefs have changed over the years? Does anything make you think the few, relatively minor beliefs you mentioned (those which conflict with the Church, not evolution and such) are more important than the knowledge that Christ is God and the Church is Christ?

That’s it, in a nutshell! My beliefs have evolved as well.

Interestingly, on the one hand my understanding and agreement with the teachings of the Church have increased although I still struggle in a few areas. On the other hand, after examining my own conscience, my compassion has increased and my desire to judge those who fall short, has decreased. I’ve come to realize that you don’t send a doctor to heal the healthy, and we are all in need of Christ’s redemption.

My favorite statement from a monk at our abbey is this: “I didn’t become a monk because I am righteous and a good Christian. I became a monk because I am a terrible Christian and without the support of my brothers I would surely head to my perdition. The monastery is not a resort for the righteous, it is a hospital for sick souls”.