Am I still Catholic?

[AntalKalnoky]

One more question, do sacraments make a difference considering I only have 4 so far: baptism, Eucharist, reconciliation, and marriage.

Confirmation is a Sacrament, age 10 or older; St Paul did it first, to bring the Holy Spirit upon the person; The Bishop does it now, In the Words of Jesus, said by Apostle Paul.

 

[crazzeto]

What dogmatic issues do you have?

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Another clarification - in the Eastern Catholic Churches, young babies DO accept the Eucharist. In fact, all three sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Communion, and Confirmation), are performed all at once while the child is an infant. There is no requirement that the child understand what they are receiving, although that IS a discipline of the Latin branch of the Catholic Church that the child generally be at least 7 years in age. A discipline means that while it is currently an enforced tradition, it is one that is changeable at the discretion of the church.

1. 
   *]The Eastern Churches are in Full Communion with the Vatican, and they are fully Apostolic Powers and Sacraments, approved by the Magesterium/Pope as they practise Historically. They are the “Eastern” branch of the One Apostolic/7 Sacraments Church Our Lord founded with The Keys to Heaven to Peter, as the Earthly “Rock” First earthly leader.
   

                                                                                                                        [LIST=1]

   *]None of our Protestant brethren have Apostolic Powers, determined By the Vatican; They are not apostolic, no matter how much they try to look/practise Catholic Liturgies or new practices like the Bible as the only Authority. :tsktsk::sad_yes:
   
   .

 

[Corki]

Confirmation is a Sacrament, age 10 or older; St Paul did it first, to bring the Holy Spirit upon the person; The Bishop does it now, In the Words of Jesus, said by Apostle Paul.

Confirmation is not limited to age 10 or older. The Eastern Churches chrisimate infants and even in the Latin Church the universal norm is the age of discretion (around age 7). Some Bishops have set different ages. It is usually the Bishop (in the Latin Church) but sometimes a priest and is usually a priest for adult converts.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Wow, thank you so much to the above posters for your loving and informational comments. I will have to go back through to read them again as there was so much information.

It seems comforting to know that I will always be considered Catholic. I am in love with the Mass as it is so beautiful. I was baptised as an infant and was raised Catholic, attending Catholic schools most of my life. So, I do consider myself as having grown up in the faith.

However, after reading one above comment, it seems as if I have excommunicated myself. After searching for a local Catholic church for several years and not finding one that we connected to (or one that had any fellowship opportunites for small groups and younger marrieds), we ended up at an Episcopalian church. I have refused to be baptized or confirmed in the Episcopalian faith (or officially join the church) until I get these things settled in my heart. I have made confessions but not to a Catholic priest but the Father at the church who was ordained in the Episcopal faith.

So, if Im excommunicated, Im no longer Catholic, correct?

No, Sweet: it is only a tecnical leaving the church, that can be easily corrected by going to Confession, explaining your problems to a Catholic Priest, the earthly representative Of Our Lord, who Forgives; and the Earthly source to guide you iin your misunderstandings, corection. That’s why Our Lord gave Apostolic Powers to Forgive To the Apostles After his Resurrection (John 20:23) 2 millennia ago, now apostolic delegeted to Priests, who can Advise you to resolve Any problems. And Catholic Priests are available anywhere in the USA: Search Your Zip code: Catholic Priest. :compcoff::extrahappy::dancing: By the way, The Church has All the Ideal Answers not avaibale elsewhere: (1) The Ideal “Birth control” are not chemical or physical products, but Natural Family Planning, : avaiding intercourse during your greatest Fertility days: Much more naturally romantic, too, and your Husband Showing His Respect for Your Womanhood!. Search Natural Family Planning. (2) The Mass is The Last Supper Feast: Ancient Christ Teaching at the Last Supper, with His Consecration of “Bread”/Wine into His Real Presence, both which Our Lord told His Apostles to Do In His Remembrance; Only the Apostles did each in the First Years. It’s still the same liturgy, now called The Mass. And only Christ performs Each Sacrament, through His Priests. The Beauty in Everything Uniquelly Catholic is in the Details: Knowing what is happening.

 

[JenniferB]

It sounds like part of you is dealing with one of the great classic philosophical debates of all time: absolute morality vs. moral relativity. This is a debate that’s so old, that it predates Christianity.

I work as a history professor, so let me explain:

In the earliest days of classical Greece, there arose a group called the Sophists. At first, they were simply the world’s first paid teachers and tutors. They would be intelligent people that would be hired by others to share their knowledge with them. Over time, however, a certain group of Sophists became so famous, that a specific school of thought arose around them. These Sophists were led by a man named Protagoras, who coined the phrase “Man is the measure of all things.” Well, what did he mean? He was stating that morality is in our mind, and so what might be right for one person might not be right for another, and that was ok. For example, while I might think it’s a sin to drink alcohol, others might think it’s ok at 21, or at 18, or at 14, and so on. Different people and societies would believe different things, and so the majority opinion would generally become law. But, since the law was not rooted in any moral truth, it could be changed at will.

Soon, a man arose to challenge this idea - the great Greek philosopher Socrates. He believed in moral absolutism, or that morality is fixed, regardless of what we believe. He argued that this had to be true, because there are some crimes that are universally accepted, like murder, rape, and theft. No matter where you go, whether it be the USA or England, or China or North Korea, all of these societies agree that certain crimes are universal. Socrates believed that ALL morality was absolute, and that if you disagreed, you were simply wrong. He would argue, for example, that something like premarital sex is always wrong. Now, in ancient society, just like in the modern, there were many varying opinions on this. However, while Protagoras would say that this is perfectly acceptable, Socrates, would say that those who believe in premarital sex are simply incorrect and should change their habits to conform to the true nature of morality and the universe. He also believed that although a state could create an immoral law, it was still important to follow the law as best as morally possible to avoid chaos. By the way, Socrates was so sure that he was right about absolute morality, that he died for his beliefs. He frequently criticized democracy as being a government of amateurs, and so the government of Athens eventually condemned him to death. Rather than flee or go into exile, he voluntarily drank hemlock and killed himself. He wasn’t willing to go against the judgement of the state, which he believed was absolute. He was willing to admit that his opinion could be wrong.

You see, Socrates realized that if you believed in moral relativism, you could justify anything, since there was no basis for morality to be true except our own mind. Instead of something being wrong, you could just legalize it and VOILA… it’s ok! Think pot should be legalized? Ok! Think prostitution should be legalized? Ok! Take this to it’s logical extension, and you end up with the Nazis. Think it’s ok to murder Jews? VOILA… it’s ok! This was the danger that Socrates warned about, and what he was trying to combat.

Now, how does this impact the topic at hand?

Protestantism is a morally relative system. People pick and choose a denomination based on how closely it mirrors their OWN personal moral beliefs.

Catholicism is a morally ABSOLUTE system. People are given a moral code, and if they disagree, they are wrong, and then expected to learn why they are wrong and correct their behavior.

Two final questions:

1. Which are you?
2. If you believe in God, do you think he would let individual humans determine morality for themselves according to their best judgment, or do you think he assigned certain moral precepts for his followers that were absolute?

Can you move to Texas and be my neighbor?! You have such a way of explaining hings clearly and concisely. You’re students must love you!

One question: Socrates thought he was right and his was the only way. Isn’t that the same thing as him picking and choosing what he wanted to believe and forcing it on others. He believed in absolutism and that was that-- it had to be trie.

In answer to your questions:

1. I guess I identify more with Protestanism because it does line with with alot of the beoiefs I consider major. Second of all, I don’t know how to enjoy the Catholic mass the way I enjoy the Eipisopalian masses. Maybe we need to keep looking? Surely there is a father out there that can make sense of the Scriptureand apply it to his congregation’s lives instead of spiuting off facts and making me want to doze off! But equally important is the fact that this was the faith I was raised in and its all I know. Im comfortable and confiden calling myself a Catholic. I still tell people I am at our Episcopalian. Chrich.
2. Well, that one is tricky for me. Why would he decided everything for us and then give us free reign through free will. Isn’t that like setting us up for failure?

 

[Rolltide]

Can you move to Texas and be my neighbor?! You have such a way of explaining hings clearly and concisely. You’re students must love you!

Thanks! That’s nice of you to say. I’m out trying to get my lawn mowed, so I’m going to come back to the first part of your response in a little bit. In the meantime, let me address your second question.

1. Well, that one is tricky for me. Why would he decided everything for us and then give us free reign through free will. Isn’t that like setting us up for failure?

God’s omnipotence works something like this, and I realize that this is an odd (and imperfect) analogy:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.

It is also important that God gave us free will. It is literally how we are “created in His own image”. God did not want to force us to be slaves that were following him blindly without a choice. He wanted us to actually see for ourselves that He was good, and choose to follow him.

 

[JenniferB]

Thanks! That’s nice of you to say. I’m out trying to get my lawn mowed, so I’m going to come back to the first part of your response in a little bit. In the meantime, let me address your second question.

God’s omnipotence works something like this, and I realize that this is an odd (and imperfect) analogy:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.

It is also important that God gave us free will. It is literally how we are “created in His own image”. God did not want to force us to be slaves that were following him blindly without a choice. He wanted us to actually see for ourselves that He was good, and choose to follow him.

Daunting, indeed. I had to re-read that sentence a couple times!

Then, I guess that’s where I gulp have to question His rules. I don’t mean tass to be as boldly defiant as it sounds. But, the God I see who is all knowing and all loving will realize there will be Muslims and Jews and even atheists who live morally and kindly and technically know of Jesus and His resurrection and for whatever reason, choose to continue to practice their own different faith.

The God I know in my heart wont send those people to hell when they have chosen to get to Him through someone of another name. The God I know in my heart doesn’t care that I am temporarily seeking Him in an Episcopalian church, so long as I’m seeking Him.

The God I know in my heart remembers that He created the men and women that are gay, and loves them and will welcome them into His kingdom because they are still His children, and to them, it is not sinning if they are just living out the cards He dealt them.

The God I know in my heart doesn’t care if I believe in a literal Adam and Eve so long as I get the message that He is the supreme creator of things.

The God I love as my Father loves me back unconditionally. He is always worthy of my praise because of his fairness. Does He punish people? Yes, Je wouldn’t be a fair and just ruler if he didn’t. I just don’t feel in my heart that every single small ruling in the Catechism is that important to Him. He just wants our love, our best love, in the only way we know how to give it.

 

[Rolltide]

Then, I guess that’s where I gulp have to question His rules. I don’t mean tass to be as boldly defiant as it sounds. But, the God I see who is all knowing and all loving will realize there will be Muslims and Jews and even atheists who live morally and kindly and technically know of Jesus and His resurrection and for whatever reason, choose to continue to practice their own different faith.

Hmmm… although an atheist can be moral, they aren’t practicing a faith at all. In fact, they’re rejecting faith altogether. Also, while Christians recognize that all religions may have some small element of truth to them, many faiths are clearly incompatible with each other in any way. Hindus and Buddhists do not seek God either, at least not in the way we think of in the West. They believe in a kind of “absolute soul”, of which all living things are a part of. They believe in reincarnation, and Hindus in particular believe in dharma, which means you should not try to change your station in life. Since you’ll be reincarnated to a higher status or form in the next life, you don’t rock the boat and instead you try to learn everything about your current station in life. This creates a religion and society that is the exact opposite of Christianity, because people go out of their way NOT to help people or change society for the better, since the poor are poor for a reason and to learn a lesson. To assist them would actually rob them of the lesson they are to learn, and they might not improve their status in the next life (or they may even do worse)!

God loves ALL of His people, and will help all those who seek Him. He even extends the possibility of salvation to those who aren’t Christian through no fault of their own if they try to seek God and live morally. However… in the Christian mind, while all religions deserve respect, they are NOT all equal.

There can be no better example of this than the early Christians themselves. Why were early Christians persecuted? The Romans worshiped many gods, and normally, were relatively tolerant toward most religions. This was possible in Rome, since polytheism means that other gods and religions are perfectly plausible. However, to be part of Roman society, you had to pledge your allegiance to Rome, just like we pledge allegiance to the United States today. Part of that oath was that one had to recognize the emperor as a living god, and to undertake sacrifices to the gods for the benefit of the Roman state. Well, Christians could not do that, since they would be forced to blaspheme and admit that there was more than one God. The Romans believed that Christians were unbelievably intolerant… virtually atheists! They denied the state religion, which according to Roman beliefs, might bring disaster upon Rome. They were a large, underground secret society with a strong hierarchy, and that scared and threatened the government. They kept to themselves. They treated different classes as equals, and while they never sought confrontation with authorities, their actions seemed repugnant and arrogant to a large segment of Roman society. Finally, there was only one logical reason to ancient Romans that one would refuse to take the oath - they were a traitor, since they could not affirm their loyalty. So, they were persecuted, and sometimes, put to death and martyred.

Many of the positions that Christians take today are similarly unpopular with modern society. However, if all faiths are equal, then the martyring of early Christians was completely unnecessary. They should have simply taken the oath, and that would have been that. Since they did not, and the stories of the early converts that died for the faith are so CENTRAL in Christianity, what is the lesson to be learned?

The God I know in my heart wont send those people to hell when they have chosen to get to Him through someone of another name. The God I know in my heart doesn’t care that I am temporarily seeking Him in an Episcopalian church, so long as I’m seeking Him.

Now we’re back to absolute morality vs. moral relativism. We can look at the Bible for assistance. Which of these ideas does the Bible point to? For example, is there any absolute code of conduct proclaimed in the Old Testament? Well, of course… the Ten Commandments. They were not ten suggestions, voted upon after lots of prayer by a council of Jewish elders. They were commandments from God.

“But wait!”, some would say! “Surely all of that was overturned by Jesus!” If we look to the New Testament, in Matthew 5:17, we learn that Jesus did NOT come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it! Jesus DID indeed preach with love, but he also admonished sinners. For example, he famously stated “neither do I condemn you, but go and do not sin again”. When moneylenders were set up on in the Temple, Jesus actually got ANGRY, flipping and overturning tables!

Jesus also spoke to a man who asked Him “What must I do to get to heaven”? Although the man was living a good life and fulfilled many of the things Jesus stated, he wavered and walked away sad at the last item. After learning that he must give up everything to follow Him, it was too much to accept. He simply could not bring himself to believe that what he had already done was not enough. He could not accept that HE had to change his views.

 

[Rolltide]

The God I know in my heart remembers that He created the men and women that are gay, and loves them and will welcome them into His kingdom because they are still His children, and to them, it is not sinning if they are just living out the cards He dealt them.

God does indeed love homosexuals, just like all people on earth. It is NOT a sin to be homosexual, and the church states as much! We are called upon to love them, and be kind to them, and treat them fairly. However, the church ALSO calls upon all humans to be chaste until marriage, and so for homosexuals to engage in sex would be the same sin as premarital sex for heterosexuals. The purpose of marriage is to religiously and legally sanctify the procreation process for the protection of the next generation. It is NOT about love (at least directly, as most people think), because love is presupposed if two people desire marriage. Sex within marriage does not have to be exclusively for the purposes of procreation, but it must ALWAYS be open to the possibility of life, since to do otherwise is to separate the gift from God from its purpose and diminish it. If any two individuals cannot complete the marriage act in a way that is open to life (and that most definitely includes heterosexual couples), they are not permitted to be married.

The God I know in my heart doesn’t care if I believe in a literal Adam and Eve so long as I get the message that He is the supreme creator of things.

Why include the story at the very beginning of the Bible if it does not teach a fundamental truth about the human condition? What is the lesson to be learned, and why is it so central to Christianity? What are the logical theological consequences if this were NOT the case?

The God I love as my Father loves me back unconditionally. He is always worthy of my praise because of his fairness. Does He punish people? Yes, Je wouldn’t be a fair and just ruler if he didn’t. I just don’t feel in my heart that every single small ruling in the Catechism is that important to Him. He just wants our love, our best love, in the only way we know how to give it.

I agree, as all Catholics would, that God loves us unconditionally, that he is always worthy of praise, that he is fair, and that he does punish people. However, many of the “small rulings” you speak of above are not small things, and in fact, are beliefs held even by many Protestant denominations, as well as the Orthodox. How does one rectify the fact that many religions and denominations are fundamentally incompatible with each other (in other words, either one idea or another MUST be true, and they cannot both be)? How do you determine at what point someone has strayed too far? If it’s your own personal judgement, who’s to say that you’re correct? What if other people believe that their doctrine has not changed enough?

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Thanks! That’s nice of you to say. I’m out trying to get my lawn mowed, so I’m going to come back to the first part of your response in a little bit. In the meantime, let me address your second question.

God’s omnipotence works something like this, and I realize that this is an odd (and imperfect) analogy:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.

It is also important that God gave us free will. It is literally how we are “created in His own image”. God did not want to force us to be slaves that were following him blindly without a choice. He wanted us to actually see for ourselves that He was good, and choose to follow him.

But The God doesn’t write the NFL Rules, nor pick the NFL Officials: Only the Human Brains and judgement, free will He created in Us do. We can pick our choices.

• But then Bear Bryant was THE ‘god’ of College Football, and ‘created’ The basic additional rules of Coaching others learned. One of his strongest secrets was his Sense of Humor, and coolness! And he Helped Charities, like Leaders should. ROLL TIDE; Auburn Tigers ain’t bad either, except Auburn/Alabama Classic, from Bama viewpoint. Teams Only. Not Schools.

Our Lord’s Plan for us is In His Church: Keys to Heaven to St Peter. Our Coach is our Priest/The Church. Our Priest coaches us on How to make the Best Moves, avoid turnovers. He analyses quickly why we were blocked on our ideal move, as only good experienced Coaches can. The Priest has heard ‘all the fumbles’, knows the Answers.

 

[Rolltide]

But The God doesn’t write the NFL Rules, nor pick the NFL Officials: Only the Human Brains and judgement, free will He created in Us do. We can pick our choices.

• But then Bear Bryant was THE ‘god’ of College Football, and ‘created’ The basic additional rules of Coaching others learned. One of his strongest secrets was his Sense of Humor, and coolness! And he Helped Charities, like Leaders should. ROLL TIDE; Auburn Tigers ain’t bad either, except Auburn/Alabama Classic, from Bama viewpoint. Teams Only. Not Schools.

Our Lord’s Plan for us is In His Church: Keys to Heaven to St Peter.

Some would say that SEC football is a religion unto itself… lol

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Some would say that SEC football is a religion unto itself… lol

EVERY intelligent, Educated person Knows the SEC is THE LEAGUE. And The Bear was ‘The god’ Of Coaching/Being THE MAN. How we miss him

 

[eegardner]

Wow, thank you so much to the above posters for your loving and informational comments. I will have to go back through to read them again as there was so much information.

It seems comforting to know that I will always be considered Catholic. I am in love with the Mass as it is so beautiful. I was baptised as an infant and was raised Catholic, attending Catholic schools most of my life. So, I do consider myself as having grown up in the faith.

However, after reading one above comment, it seems as if I have excommunicated myself. After searching for a local Catholic church for several years and not finding one that we connected to (or one that had any fellowship opportunites for small groups and younger marrieds), we ended up at an Episcopalian church. I have refused to be baptized or confirmed in the Episcopalian faith (or officially join the church) until I get these things settled in my heart. I have made confessions but not to a Catholic priest but the Father at the church who was ordained in the Episcopal faith.

So, if Im excommunicated, Im no longer Catholic, correct?

Unless you have denied the Catholic faith and officially joined another denomination I do not think that you are excommunicated. There are other drastic things that could cause excommunicated, but I don’t think you have done any thing that bad. However if you are considered excommunicated, that is not a permanent thing unless you choose it to be. You can come back to the Church, go to confession and you are back in. Explain the situation to a priest he will guide you back home and you will be welcomed as the “Prodigal Son” was welcomed back home.

.