Am I still Catholic?

[NewsTheMan]

According to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, you are a heretic.

Not quite. A heretic can only be declared a heretic by the Church (i.e. in a Church court). Of course, there must be good reason for bringing him to the court. Expressing doubt on a forum does not make one a heretic. Technically, we may report him to Rome and say “Mr. X denies a dogma of the Church, thus holding to heresy, just thought I would let you know” but that is about the extent of it.

I have no trouble calling a spade a spade when I see it, but just be careful when using the word heretic willy nilly.

 

[Dymphna82]

I don’t understand how anyone could take issue with such doctrine. I think it reflects greatly on the wonderful mystery that is God, that he could create such an anomaly. And what better a womb for Jesus to grow in, than one of a sinless woman?

I would say these would be one of the parts of the Bible that worry me the least. I have so many bigger questions to ask God when/if I meet him, like…why did he give us sinuses and other areas that can get stuffed? sneezes

 

[t68ware]

I am not sola scriptura, and even as a Protestant I didn’t believe “Bible alone”. I think what bothers me is that the belief in the IC is that Paul never mentioned it, and I would think that such an important belief in the Church would have been discussed by him. Also, it is not in creeds, and as far as i can tell when reading my Bible, belief in that dogma is not required for salvation. The Protestant answer to the IC is that when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, that is when Jesus became perfect and had all stain of original sin removed. Since He was fully human, and Mary had sin (Protestant version), the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus sinless. I am still thinking this through, but 40 years of Protestant thinking is hard to remove.

 

[JRKH]

I am not sola scriptura, and even as a Protestant I didn’t believe “Bible alone”. I think what bothers me is that the belief in the IC is that Paul never mentioned it, and I would think that such an important belief in the Church would have been discussed by him. Also, it is not in creeds, and as far as i can tell when reading my Bible, belief in that dogma is not required for salvation. The Protestant answer to the IC is that when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, that is when Jesus became perfect and had all stain of original sin removed. Since He was fully human, and Mary had sin (Protestant version), the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus sinless. I am still thinking this through, but 40 years of Protestant thinking is hard to remove.

Indeed 40 years of training is hard to remove…
What you say above leads me to believe that you are not so much “rejecting” the teaching as you are still investigating the teaching…

Let me express something that might be of help. It has been to me anyway…

Ask yourself how this teaching might effect your day-to-day walk in faith?
Is it a teaching that YOU must understand and fully embrace in order to remain Catholic?
Or maybe it is something best just accepted on faith and trust in the Church so that you can move on to more “rubber to the road” matters.

I can understand where people who’s gifts are “apologetics” might say, “Yes I need to know and understand this”, but for most of us (well me anyway), it seems that this matter does not really effect how we get on with living our Catholic life of Praise to God and corporal works of mercy. Because of this fact, I tend to simply “accept” the more difficult and intricate teachings because I have already accepted the Church’s authority, from Christ to declare them…It’s not my place to second guess what the Church has “Bound or Loosed”.

I hope that helps some…

Peace
James

 

[Nicea325]

I have been Catholic for almost 3 years after being Protestant for 40 years. I now do not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The lack of Scriptural references and considering how long it took for the dogma to form have me unconvinced that it is true. Now I wonder if I can still consider myself a Catholic.

Then why did you recite the Profession of Faith,during Lent? The lack of scriptural evidence? Where is the scriptural evidence for the canon of the Bible? Chapter and verses please,considering how long it took for the canon to form? Why do accept the canon?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Since He was fully human, and Mary had sin (Protestant version), the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus sinless. I am still thinking this through, but 40 years of Protestant thinking is hard to remove.

Yes, it is. And I don’t think we have to remove it all at once. Like that wineskin, you don’t want everything getting all ripped up and the wine leaking out. For me, as I have struggled with some Catholic teachings, I try and remember God called me here, and there’s nowhere else to go. * Eucharist.* So, hmmmmmm. I have faith that understanding will come, even if I don’t get it right now.

Remember when Jesus told everyone that had to eat His flesh and drink His blood and a lot of His disciples walked away? But some didn’t and He asked why they stayed and Peter said,“Where can we go, you have the words of eternal life.” He didn’t get it, but he wasn’t leaving.

That’s how I think of myself a lot of times. I sometimes don’t get it, but I’m not leaving Jesus now that I’ve found Him. Hang tough. The Liar hates that you want to be in the Church.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, it is. And I don’t think we have to remove it all at once. Like that wineskin, you don’t want everything getting all ripped up and the wine leaking out. For me, as I have struggled with some Catholic teachings, I try and remember God called me here, and there’s nowhere else to go. * Eucharist.* So, hmmmmmm. I have faith that understanding will come, even if I don’t get it right now.

Remember when Jesus told everyone that had to eat His flesh and drink His blood and a lot of His disciples walked away? But some didn’t and He asked why they stayed and Peter said,“Where can we go, you have the words of eternal life.” He didn’t get it, but he wasn’t leaving.

That’s how I think of myself a lot of times. I sometimes don’t get it, but I’m not leaving Jesus now that I’ve found Him. Hang tough. The Liar hates that you want to be in the Church.

What she says…

peace
James

 

[Michael85]

Not quite. A heretic can only be declared a heretic by the Church (i.e. in a Church court). Of course, there must be good reason for bringing him to the court. Expressing doubt on a forum does not make one a heretic. Technically, we may report him to Rome and say “Mr. X denies a dogma of the Church, thus holding to heresy, just thought I would let you know” but that is about the extent of it.

I have no trouble calling a spade a spade when I see it, but just be careful when using the word heretic willy nilly.

There are two types of heretics.

1. 
   *]1. Material heretic - someone who denies a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church but has not been formally jugded by the Church
   *]2. Formal heretic - someone who has been formally judged by the Roman Catholic Church to be a heretic
   
   This is where the arguments of sedevacantists fail - since (according to Roman Catholic beliefs) no-one on earth can judge the pope a formal heretic.
   
   The OP is therefore a material heretic (according the RCC).

 

[NewsTheMan]

The OP is therefore a material heretic (according the RCC).

Please see my last post.
No he isn’t. It takes a lot more than just coming on to a message board and expressing a doubt to be called a material heretic. Nobody here can judge that since we do not know his situation.

If a priest has spoken to him and he still denies it.
If he has researched it properly in Church documents and still denies it.
If he tells other people that it is not a true doctrine.
If he obstinately refuses to believe it.
Only then will he be a material heretic… in which case Rome may try him and then he may be declared a formal heretic.

Now the above may or may not apply to the OP. Christian charity demands that we read his post as a kind of plea - “Please help me as I am struggling to understand this doctrine and at the moment I do not believe it”. Had he been nonchalant about it we could assume the worst. However he come here looking for answers. In does no good for us to start mouthing off and calling him a heretic. Who does that help in this situation, since it is clear that he is not a heretic?

I see you are not Catholic. Yet you keep saying “according to the Roman Catholic Church…”. It seems you may be here just to stir things up, as if to make out like the Church is cold and legalistic. Maybe not. In any case, stop calling people heretics. It helps nobody here.

 

[fbl9]

I am not sola scriptura, and even as a Protestant I didn’t believe “Bible alone”. I think what bothers me is that the belief in the IC is that Paul never mentioned it, and I would think that such an important belief in the Church would have been discussed by him. Also, it is not in creeds, and as far as i can tell when reading my Bible, belief in that dogma is not required for salvation. The Protestant answer to the IC is that when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary,** that is when Jesus became perfect and had all stain of original sin removed.** Since He was fully human, and Mary had sin (Protestant version), the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus sinless. I am still thinking this through, but 40 years of Protestant thinking is hard to remove.

Are you sure
When the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary that’s when Christ was concived.
If this was what you were taught no wonder you are having difficulty.

 

[t68ware]

Are you sure
When the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary that’s when Christ was concived.
If this was what you were taught no wonder you are having difficulty.

That and since God was His Father, He was perfect but still could have sinned if He chose to. Do we Catholics believe Jesus had no sin nature and could not have sinned?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I am not sola scriptura, and even as a Protestant I didn’t believe “Bible alone”. I think what bothers me is that the belief in the IC is that Paul never mentioned it, and I would think that such an important belief in the Church would have been discussed by him. Also, it is not in creeds, and as far as i can tell when reading my Bible, belief in that dogma is not required for salvation. The Protestant answer to the IC is that when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, that is when Jesus became perfect and had all stain of original sin removed. Since He was fully human, and Mary had sin (Protestant version), the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus sinless. I am still thinking this through, but 40 years of Protestant thinking is hard to remove.

It seems to me that you haven’t rejected the teaching. You are struggling to understand it’s support, but you’re not expressly rejecting the Church or its teaching authority. That makes you an honest Catholic.

Peace,
Robert

 

[fbl9]

That and since God was His Father, He was perfect but still could have sinned if He chose to. Do we Catholics believe Jesus had no sin nature and could not have sinned?

Sin is disobidience to God.
Now since Jesus is God He would go against His very nature if He were to sin.
Yes catholics beleive Jesus had no sin nature, there was nothing in Him to cause HIm to sin. How else could Jesus be refered to as a spotless lamb, a pure sacrifice if He had a nature unto sin?

 

[Michael19682]

Mary’s earthly body was assumed into Heaven. There can be no sin in Heaven. All flesh is subject to futility and therefore sinful. Ergo, Mary had no sin in her flesh and was conceived as stated in the doctrine.

Even if you didn’t believe it because you couldn’t, were brainwashed by Protestant rhetoric, etc, a sin requires full consent of the will. Why wouldn’t you still be Catholic? If it were a sin to doubt or disbelieve this doctrine, it could be confessed as such. If a priest can forgive you it, then you are still Catholic.

“Shipwrecked” and “separated” aside, the quote of JPII doesn’t say “no longer in communion with the Church” (and even that is different than outright ex-commnucation)?

 

[hunter123]

I have been Catholic for almost 3 years after being Protestant for 40 years. I now do not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The lack of Scriptural references and considering how long it took for the dogma to form have me unconvinced that it is true. Now I wonder if I can still consider myself a Catholic.

Do you accept the teaching of Papal infallibility and Mortal and Venial sins?

 

[rinnie]

I have been Catholic for almost 3 years after being Protestant for 40 years. I now do not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The lack of Scriptural references and considering how long it took for the dogma to form have me unconvinced that it is true. Now I wonder if I can still consider myself a Catholic.

Well if you do not accept the teaching of the Catholic Church how could you consider yourself Catholic and not Protestant? Isn’t that what protestant is? Someone who does not accept the teachings of the CC and needs everything to be written to accept it, and seems to reject Oral Tradition even though the WRITTEN WORD they seem to obey commands you to accept Oral Tradition??

Never figured that out myself. You claim to obey the Scriptures but reject the Immaculate Conception which is Oral Tradition!

 

[rinnie]

I am not sola scriptura, and even as a Protestant I didn’t believe “Bible alone”. I think what bothers me is that the belief in the IC is that Paul never mentioned it, and I would think that such an important belief in the Church would have been discussed by him. Also, it is not in creeds, and as far as i can tell when reading my Bible, belief in that dogma is not required for salvation. The Protestant answer to the IC is that when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, that is when Jesus became perfect and had all stain of original sin removed. Since He was fully human, and Mary had sin (Protestant version), the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus sinless. I am still thinking this through, but 40 years of Protestant thinking is hard to remove.

I don’t recall Paul mentioning the Trinity either. So what we reject that also??

Also how can the Protestants say that Christ by passed the Orginal Sin that was to be passed on to us by our Parents if the Blessed Mother was not saved from it at the moment of HER Conception then??

I mean if Mother Mary was born INTO Origginal Sin as we were, so was Christ right?? How do the Protestants talk their way of that one??

See we know as Catholics she was saved at the moment of her conception from Original Sin and was SAVED from it by God. Seems odd to me why protestants seem it was so wrong or something for God to do so! Or impossible or whatever they say. But it is the true word of God handed down to the Church by Sacred Tradition that we as Catholics are told to obey in the written scripture.

 

[rinnie]

That and since God was His Father, He was perfect but still could have sinned if He chose to. Do we Catholics believe Jesus had no sin nature and could not have sinned?

What Christ is and will always be PERFECT and without sin. How in the world could Christ be with sin and be the perfect spotless Lamb who takes away the sins of the world if he was with sin

Christ is GOD!! GOD IS PERFECT without any sin ever!! Remember the Trinity the Father the SON and the Holy SPirit. ONE IN BEING with the Father.

You need to continue to study the faith, then you will learn to love it and trust it as we do. As with all truth it is very simple to believe.

 

[t68ware]

What Christ is and will always be PERFECT and without sin. How in the world could Christ be with sin and be the perfect spotless Lamb who takes away the sins of the world if he was with sin

Christ is GOD!! GOD IS PERFECT without any sin ever!! Remember the Trinity the Father the SON and the Holy SPirit. ONE IN BEING with the Father.

You need to continue to study the faith, then you will learn to love it and trust it as we do. As with all truth it is very simple to believe.

Your quote was taken from part of my argument from the Protestant point of view. I believe Jesus could have never sinned. Anyway, I have done my homework and prayer and I am back where I started, accepting the teachings of the Church. Thank you for all your help, even though some of you were slightly judgemental.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Your quote was taken from part of my argument from the Protestant point of view. I believe Jesus could have never sinned. Anyway, I have done my homework and prayer and I am back where I started, accepting the teachings of the Church. Thank you for all your help, even though some of you were slightly judgemental.

We’re glad we could help.