Am I the same thing as my soul?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DL82
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
St. Paul had something, i can’t find it at the moment, like -
" to become one body and one soul "…

Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this
means to save his soul.
And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that
they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created.
 
Valentin,
St. Paul had something, i can’t find it at the moment, like -
" to become one body and one soul "…
Click to expand...
Yes, I like reading St. Paul, and he mentions the one body many times: in Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 6-12; Ephesians 2-4; Colossians 3. There may be more, but the one soul I could not find mentioned. This one is interesting tho: (1 Corinthians 6:16 - Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.”). No mention of becoming one Soul.
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this
means to save his soul.
Click to expand...
I agree! Also, in the reading it states “save his soul”…
i am very influenced by Jesuit spirituality and here is that St. Ignatius Loyola said :
Click to expand...
Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,
my memory, understanding, my entire will,
all that I have and call my own.
You have given all to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.
Do with it as you will.
Give me only your love and your grace:
that is enough for me.
Click to expand...
Ah, you like the Jesuit’s. They are very educated and found mostly at colleges teaching… altho I was very close to one who went on missions to S. America, and another that was Associate Pastor at the Church. Both were very ‘down to earth’, not ‘mystical’ at all. By that I mean one could understand them and what they were saying.
To me, with the prayer of St. Ignatius Loyola, I look at it not as a loosing it, but as a gracious willingness to do as the Lord wishes with what He has given one… thereby receiving His love and grace. (If you have given all of you back to God, what is left to receive His love and grace?)(and why would you need it… you are no more?) Does this speak more of the mystical? Who are you if you are not? And if the Lord equipped you to do His will, are we really giving it back to Him? Wouldn’t that say that you do not want to be the one to do it (in the return of it), Recall the story of the servants with the Talents and what each did with them. Or are we more-so asking for His assistance in the use of it… so we can succeed in doing His will with what He has given us? To grow it or multiply it? How can we do that if we don’t have it anymore? The whole of it hinges on saving our soul… and how we do that. And it is ‘our soul’.
 
yes, one has his/her soul. but it is only named as his/her. may be his/her history of the earth, stays in the memory.may be there he/she takes care for relatives still on the earth. but that is a part of the Ocean. it is not separated. the drop has special task, but it is a part of the Ocean. it is not unnamed drop, nobody cares about. but a drop with a name, with a history. as Job says:
‘In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind’.
on the earth the soul is separate from God, many sins, many doubts, many differences. some willengness to do God’s will, but mostly not successful. the souls is saved only by the Grace of God ! nobody can save himself/herself. God wants to save the whole world. but many people do not listen, do not follow. they consider their souls as their property, so they want to be independant from God and the result is obvious. other with less egocentrism hear from time to time the words of God and many of them understand the road of salvation and are successful. the same as it is written for the hebrews in the desert - Genesis,
Exodus,Leviticus,Numbers,Deuteronomy

the whole spiritual life is a road to God, become more and more clean, until he / she becoming part of the God, doing his will and nothing else.
what is Virgin Marry ? does she has her own will ? isn’t she just an example to us from God for Mother/Wife/Christian ?
what is St. Joseph ? first wanted to do his will, than after Angel’s visit changed and the whole life we do not know anything about his own will.
how people diferentiate each other.
people differentiate each other with what they are thinking/doing/ willing. you can think about with people around you.
so, all their deeds are provocated by the what they wish, by their own will. so, we come to the conclusion that people differentiate each other by their wills.
that means if they have the same will, they do not differentiate. and also vice versa.
so, if in Heaven any soul is white, free of sins, doing only the will of God, that does not diferentiate from God. in that case it is all and the same.
i agree here in this explanation there is no much mystery, but i am sn engineer and like to understand things in this way.

Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this
means to save his soul.
 
Let me see here.?..?..!

What you say is that in heaven God only surrounds himself with ‘white’ souls… and a soul has to be white to be with God.
And Christ on Earth surrounded Himself with sinners (black souls)… in order to do what? The Apostles were…? St. Paul was…? St. Joseph was…? Were their souls still black here on Earth while doing the will of the Father? Or? And yes, only God in His mercy and grace can save us, we do not earn it… but we should ask for it, seek it, knock on it’s door. For our souls sake. What happened as the Apostles were hiding out in fear when Pentecost occurred? What happened when St. Paul was blinded? What happened when St. Joseph was told to go a different route? Was not all of these ‘Obedience’? (This has to do with the Will… again). And shall we call this a type of covenant between the Good Lord and the Person? As long as one is obedient in doing it. They then were given their instructions… and did so. To the Glory of God. Not for their own ego. They were living on a more Spiritual plane, although in their physical bodies. So their souls could of been grey while they were in the obedience, not black or white. And there are many shades of grey.

And I too am an engineer.
 
what i see here, you use examples of the life on the earth.
i talk about Heaven.
of course Jesus surrounded himself with sinners, in order to make them listen the God’s words, to belive in his nice plan for them. also all other events, you mentioned. the prince of this world is not Jesus. He waits us in another world, where we do not have sins anymore. again, in Numbers. many things described there.
in Heaven God is surrounded by white pure souls, doing 100 % of His will…
but, i see no possibility for agreement, at the moment. we better stop…

'When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him.
 
Being on this Earth is what I am learning and know. It is the here-and-now I have to deal with… while reaching my hands toward Heaven.
I know not what Heaven is like besides what has been said. And my imagination can fill in the blanks (but is that true?). I also do not know what Hades is like besides what has been said. Again, my imagination can fill in the blanks (but is that true?).
If I had to sorta conclude what is believed it would have to be that this life on Earth is “like” Purgatory… where there is Hope to get to Heaven, we just have to be purged of our sins. In Hades, there is no Hope for getting to Heaven, one is stuck there. Is this close?

Yes, I ponder Heaven… and I also let Hades cross my mind on occasion. But it takes our Soul to even get a spark of Heavens glow, much less what Heaven truly is. I will let it go with this little gem: { 1 Corinthians 2:9 - But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,” }
Love of God is the thing…
 
yes, you are right. in common case. but some people sometimes talk with God…and He tells them very interesting things…
St Ignatius teaches us to understand that our God is an active God. every minutes we have to listen Him and to do his will.
than many good, nice and interestings things happen…

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis.
 
i found something from Matthew 16
  1. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
  2. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
 
Valentin said:
i found something from Matthew 16
  1. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
  2. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Click to expand...
In 24, it would seem that the ‘deny himself’ would cause the suffering of ‘take up his cross’. Meaning, we are not doing what we want to do… but, don’t we want to ‘follow’ Him, do as He will’s? To say, we are doing His bidding, not liking it, and would rather not, implies reluctance and that our Heart is not with it.

In 25, we have to look at different things here. How many “aspects” of life are there? Let’s say Body-Mind-Soul. If in the saving of the body we loose our Soul… in the loosing of our body we save out Soul (find it)… one cannot save his body and also loose his body, it is the various aspects that are lost or found.

If I always live from my mental thoughts and repress the other aspects of my being, how cold that is. If I always live from my Heart and repress the other aspects, how warm and emotional that is. If I always live from my Soul sensations and repress the the other aspects, how out of this world it is. You see what I’m saying here, we are a ‘blend’ of aspects the way God made us, and living life is a learning experience further shaping us. And the Good Lord put me here TO BE HERE, not to be ignoring the balance He has created in me. But to be using it, to shed some of the dark items and grow some of the lighter items. By ignoring the gifts that God has created (we ourselves… others… his world), what are we telling God? All the while looking to Heaven, but ignoring Earth. We may have said not a word, but our actions (reluctance to enjoy His creation) speaks. And our reluctance to learn the lessons He is trying to teach us also speaks without saying a word. And what are we here for? Simply: to know, love and serve God. The know comes from the Soul; the love comes from the Heart/Mind; the serve comes from the Body (in the here and now). How He made us and where we are.

On a side note; language and relativity.
If the ground is scorched and dry, we say the rain is good. If we are in water up to our knees, we say the rain is bad. If it’s been cloudy for a week, we say the sunshine is good. If it’s been sunny for a week (making the ground dry), we say it is bad.
What is 60 degree’s? If coming from 90 degrees it’s cold, if coming from 30 degrees it’s hot. How can the same 60 degrees be both of the opposites, hot and cold?
If our suffering on Earth ‘feels’ like Purgatory, is it? Earth is where we ask for God’s forgiveness/ Mercy and it is done. In Purgatory the asking is over and all that is left is the time remaining till the process is done. A little story told to me when younger is relevant here. It goes like this: I felt bad because I had no shoes… then I saw a man who had no feet. How bad is bad? How good is good? It is ‘Relative’ to where we have been. Can some bad be good? Can some good be bad? Again, it depends. Can two people be doing the same thing, and one is doing it reluctantly while the other willingly? Doesn’t God look at the Heart of the person? And where does the Heart get it’s direction? Perhaps the Soul… with God’s Love touching it lightly. Could it be that in the presents of God’s Love, our own Love looks like nothing, making us ‘feel’ bad, saying we have a long way to go yet. If it weren’t for Our Soul, that would be so… but it is through the rest of our aspects that Our Soul gives back to God. And that is all He asks of us in the here and now. The Heart-Felt Will to do just that.
 
your long and rich text gives me several reasons to think about :
  • about relativism - if i am not wrong the relativism is not very much similar to our Faith. the examples you give are right, but finally there is an absolute Truth. different are the ways to that Truth, in fact not so different. Jesus says :
  1. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
  • " ignoring the presents from God " - material things are created and as St. Ignatius Loyola says :
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul. And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created. From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it. For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things in all that is allowed to the choice of our free will and is not prohibited to it; so that, on our part, we want not health rather than sickness, riches rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only what is most conducive for us to the end for which we are created.
those word of St Ignatius are soo strong, i really can’t add more.
but what they show me again, the man of God, has to loose bit by bit his own will and to put himself / herself in the hands of God.
that means the man of God gradually becomes “part” of God.
part in “” means that he / she does not become God him/herself, but unseparable part of the God’s entity. i can’t forget yours a drop in the ocean. it is still a drop, but unseparable from the ocean, but not the ocean itself.
 
And to your quote: "Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul. And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created. From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it. For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things in all that is allowed to the choice of our free will and is not prohibited to it; so that, on our part, we want not health rather than sickness, riches rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only what is most conducive for us to the end for which we are created. "

Yes, we are saying the same thing, in a slightly different way, from each one’s ‘perspective’.
The drop in the ocean is what happens to us after this life is done. In this life I look at myself as a leaf on the tree (physically)… or a branch on that tree (Heart and Mind). Remember, we came into this life (some say) with nothing (more like how God outfitted us)… and we will leave this life (some say) with nothing (more like what we have done here)… while being that branch. Did it produce fruit? Or will it be pruned? Remember when Christ said He was the vine and we were the branches?

I kinda look at myself as one link on the chain of time.
 
in my quote, you also mentioned it, St. Ignatius said " …and serve God our Lord …". that gives our life a certain " action type ". of course, we need monks, who spend their time for prayers the whole day, because they are accumulators of the world. i personally want to be the type, that serves God, by the actions, behaviour, involvement in everyday life. every evening when do my examination fo the conscience, it seems i always fail, or if any good results, they are half useful. but God gives me everyday new gifts, despite my weakness. seems to be He cares very much about my personality. he needs me for anything. probably it is with everybody. we all have tasks and He supports the execution of. such idea gives me more freedom and affection towards our Lord.
can you give me your opinion on the following - last night God told me that, since i have 3 kids, when i make orders to them directly and insist fiercly my orders to be fulfilled, that is a sin. because when i make orders to them, i directly hamper them to listen God and do his will. it was first time such idea came to me…
 
Valentin,
Don’t we all fail? Even in some little things? I kinda look at it this way: physically I’m aged; Mentally I’m about half there; Spiritually I’m a toddler.
But what is it to fail? If not to try again and learn from it. Remember when you first learn to walk, you loose balance and fall many times… soon it becomes second nature (you don’t even think about it to do it). Again, in the progression of the ‘action’ it can be looked at relatively, or better at it today then yesterday… all the while going into tomorrow.
An easy one here, look back 10 years, or 20 years and what you were then as compared to now. (easy on the Pride here, but, haven’t you also had success toward the progression?) Yes, there is a long way to go, but isn’t it the progress that counts in God’s eye’s? And the Will to try and get there?

As to your question with telling the kids to do this or that (I too have raised some kid’s), one has to look at one’s own motivation for doing it. It is your task to raise your kids hopefully on the right path. Discipline is a good thing… The Good Lord has used it with me (and aren’t we God’s Children?). If your motivations for doing such are not from Love (discipline included), then there may be cause for you to think that way. Of course there is the age of the kid to also think about, and the not protecting then from every fall (so they can learn too)… but being there when they reach out.
Parenting is a whole other topic. It’s not the easiest thing to do, but the rewards are worth it. (presently and in the future). Sometimes I think the kids are raising us (Hmm).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top