Am I the worst of all sinners?

[Magicsilence]

Greetings and Gods Blessings to you all.

I am troubled of late by the subject of humility.

Though the great saints were indeed “saints” they still called themselves the worst of all sinners. They were appalled at their own behaviour, and saw only imperfections in themselves, and Christ in others.

So, my question is; How does one lower oneself, calling themselves the worst of all sinners, when they KNOW full well, there were others sinning more greviously than them.

Is it a question of the more given, the more expected?

Thus, I am having trouble comprehending the issue.

Any answers are appreciated.

God Bless you all.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Aaron_I]

It is a matter of them more fully appreciating the nature of God. There offenses are less severe than hours, but because of their close proximity to God, they more fully understood the gravity of what they did.

 

[Lillith]

I think that the great Saints never judged anyone else…like we are supposed to not do…and so they were only judgemental toward themselves…

They truely had an ability to see God in everyone around them…and when they looked at themselves…they only saw a sinner…which is what we all are!

 

[LSK]

Aaron, do you mean that because they were so close to God they saw every sin as ‘grave’?

 

[Della]

LSK:

Aaron, do you mean that because they were so close to God they saw every sin as ‘grave’?

If I might answer that (awaiting Aaron’s reply). I wouldn’t say that. Rather, I’d say that they could see much more clearly than we who are not great saints, how much the least act of their will in contrast to God’s will damaged the Kingdom of God–his work of grace in their souls and in the world. Does that make sense?

 

[LSK]

I think so, Della. Because they were so close to Our Lord, they had a clearer picture of their own short comings and character defects and so, could more closely examine their own consciences and therefore were more aware of their sinful natures? Is that right?

So, they still weren’t, say, equating their deeds that might be sinful with the deeds of those who were not as enlightened as they? Like they might recognize an act of their own as being selfish, but they would not have considered that sin as equal to the sin of a immoral man who was regularly robbing people…am I on track here?

 

[Della]

LSK:

I think so, Della. Because they were so close to Our Lord, they had a clearer picture of their own short comings and character defects and so, could more closely examine their own consciences and therefore were more aware of their sinful natures? Is that right?

Right.

So, they still weren’t, say, equating their deeds that might be sinful with the deeds of those who were not as enlightened as they? Like they might recognize an act of their own as being selfish, but they would not have considered that sin as equal to the sin of a immoral man who was regularly robbing people…am I on track here?

They were able to see grave sins for what they were in anyone, but they were readier to accuse themselves of being guilty of sins than others. IOW, they didn’t judge the motives of others, but left that up to God, while recognizing immorality when they saw it.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I am troubled of late by the subject of humility.

Though the great saints were indeed “saints” they still called themselves the worst of all sinners. They were appalled at their own behaviour, and saw only imperfections in themselves, and Christ in others.

Hi there Andre…I think that the saints saw themselves in the light of the Graces God had given them - hence their sinfulness to them is a serious matter to them. “to whom much is given much is expected”.

So, my question is; How does one lower oneself, calling themselves the worst of all sinners, when they KNOW full well, there were others sinning more greviously than them.

… your statement in the above quotation that “there were others sinning more greviously than them”. The gravity of sin is also measured by the Graces granted not to sin…and one of the reasons one refrains from accusing another of serious sin. Only God knows the Grace granted to avoid sin…while a saint may in a remote manner (or in a direct manner if the Grace is granted) that he/she is granted great Graces…and hence has more responsibility and indeed accountability than one not granted such Grace.

Is it a question of the more given, the more expected?

Here I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Thus, I am having trouble comprehending the issue.

I dont think there is any spiritual problem in the above statement, obviously you are searching and pondering humility. Perhaps, perhaps, the problem enters into the equasion when I think I know what humility is and then act that out and then think that I am indeed humble…altho it is a start on a lifelong journey with many arrivals only to depart. Pondering the meaning of humility in Truth is an arrival.

Barb

 

[AquinasXVI]

Magic:

This common phenomena in the psyche of the saints come from their examinations of conscience, as they see more of God and his actions in their lives, the smaller and smaller they see themselves. Us, standing in front of the infinite God as much as we have come to form ourselves to be more and more like him still amount to very little. This is what GKC always refer to as the Paradoxes of Christianity. As we become holier, the more little and imperfect we see ourselves relative the the ultimate Beauty, Nobility and Truth.

St. Thomas when dying and saying his last Confession, the confessor said that he heard the confession of a child. Given the brilliance of his mind and the sharpness of his wits, his heart was as pure and innocent as a first communicant. We should aim to be like that.

in XT.

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Great question Andre, I have often wondered the same!

 

[zian]

Magicsilence:

I am troubled of late by the subject of humility.

Andre.

Would that we all should be troubled by it. Count yourself fortunate. Many blunder through life without giving this a second thought.

And at the end of their lives, it shows.

 

[StCsDavid]

For me…the more I get to know Christ…the more I realize how terribly unworthy of His gift I am. It’s not a self-loathing thing. I don’t feel bad about myself, I just recognize the awesomness of His gift with greater and greater clarity. I realize all the better how much He has really given to me. I imgaine the saints felt that to an even greater degree.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Magicsilence:

Greetings and Gods Blessings to you all.

I am troubled of late by the subject of humility.

It seems to be the sort of thing that really humble people do not realise they have - some things are better that way​

Though the great saints were indeed “saints” they still called themselves the worst of all sinners. They were appalled at their own behaviour, and saw only imperfections in themselves, and Christ in others.

So, my question is; How does one lower oneself, calling themselves the worst of all sinners, when they KNOW full well, there were others sinning more greviously than them.

Is it a question of the more given, the more expected?

Thus, I am having trouble comprehending the issue.

Any answers are appreciated.

God Bless you all.

In Christ.

Andre.

Saint Philip Neri said, at the end of his life, “I have never done any good”. Yet he is “the second Apostle of Rome”. That is the measure of the difference he made, between his arrival there in 1535, and his death in 1595.​

He was the only person in Rome who could not see what every one else could - that he was a Saint. So when he was canonised in 1622 - just 27 years after his death - it was said that the Pope was canonising “four Spaniards, and a Saint”.

There is a passage in the Ascent of Mount Carmel in which St. John of the Cross answers your question, more or less - I’ll try to find it for you ##

 

[Dorothy]

Those who live a higher level of prayer life are more aware of the great goodness of God, and realize that everything good that they do comes from him, thereby realizing their own nothingness.

I maintaining this prayer life they come to appreciate God’s love and mercy as never before. They fully realize that without Him they can do nothing.

 

[Dorothy]

Oooops…I meant to type "In maintaining this prayer life…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Dorothy:

Those who live a higher level of prayer life are more aware of the great goodness of God, and realize that everything good that they do comes from him, thereby realizing their own nothingness.

I maintaining this prayer life they come to appreciate God’s love and mercy as never before. They fully realize that without Him they can do nothing.

Hi there Dorothy…I agree with your comments except for the word ‘higher’. Nothing is higher than God’s Will. Hence I would have worded your opening statement “Those who live a prayer life in union with God’s Will may be more aware…etc…” God may well will a person to stay in meditative prayer all their lives; neverthless they come to a knowledge that everything they do comes from Him and thereby realize their own nothingness.

In other words, God does not HAVE to gift an ‘advanced’ (whatever it is!) stage of prayer to infuse knowledge. Advancement on the spiritual road is tied in with God’s Will, not advanced (so called) states of prayer. In fact any advancement is to love God’s Will no matter what it may be in all things and with increasing detachment from self.

Barb

 

[Dorothy]

BarbaraTherese:

Hi there Dorothy…I agree with your comments except for the word ‘higher’. Nothing is higher than God’s Will. Hence I would have worded your opening statement “Those who live a prayer life in union with God’s Will may be more aware…etc…” God may well will a person to stay in meditative prayer all their lives; neverthless they come to a knowledge that everything they do comes from Him and thereby realize their own nothingness.

In other words, God does not HAVE to gift an ‘advanced’ (whatever it is!) stage of prayer to infuse knowledge. Advancement on the spiritual road is tied in with God’s Will, not advanced (so called) states of prayer. In fact any advancement is to love God’s Will no matter what it may be in all things and with increasing detachment from self.

Barb

Very good point Barb, thanks.

I think the reason I mentioned “higher” prayer life is because the original poster wondered at the saints’ description of themselves as “the worst sinner”, even though they are living a holy life. No doubt someone on the way to sainthood is deep into prayer, and are more aware of the holiness of God and their own nothingness.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[AndyF]

Andre:

The devil wishes us to use our senses and pick up by experience, and conclude that comparitively, our sins weight in at a certain quantity or quality, so “what’s the problem?” we ask ourselves.

God has a one-on-one issue with us, and he wants us to “look him in the eye” and stop comparing. The offense is to Him first, **then **to your brothers.

If one can keep it in mind that they care that God is offended, period, and every slight is serious, then the sensual temptations will be of little concern. .

 I consider humility a grace, and a message to seek reconciliation. The more one has of it, the more fortunate they are.

 Andy

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Dorothy:

Very good point Barb, thanks.

I think the reason I mentioned “higher” prayer life is because the original poster wondered at the saints’ description of themselves as “the worst sinner”, even though they are living a holy life. No doubt someone on the way to sainthood is deep into prayer, and are more aware of the holiness of God and their own nothingness.

Peace,

Dorothy

Hi there Dorothy and thank you indeed for taking my ‘amendment’ exemplary well…indeed good example worth the imitating.
I agree with your above comments. St. Therese I think is an excellent example of a great saint and proclaimed mystic who did not attain to the so called ‘higher’ stages of prayer…I would rather call them ‘different’ stages of prayer yet she attained a unity with God’sWill in all things and indeed through the quite ordinary duties of her state in life performed outstandingly well.

Doubtless the great saints and also persons of prayer we have who declared themselves the worst of sinners and often with great effort to do so insight something of the grandeur of God hence their own nothingness as you have said. Light when it enters a room dispels the darkness and also reveals the faults in the room which may not have been evident before the light entered.

Barb

 

[Dorothy]

Hi Barb,

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Very well put!

And, in mentioning St. Therese, you mention my favorite! How can anyone, no matter what walk in life, not imitate her “little way of love and self-surrender”! It is my understanding that she reached the heights of sanctity through love. She saw her “littleness”.

Have a blessed and happy Thanksgiving!

Peace,

Dorothy