Am I wrong for supporting this night club managers decision?

[Lasting_faith]

Racism is ALWAYS wrong. We should never judge anyone due to his/hers race, complexion, political view, nationality or sexual orientation. That does not mean that we should approve someones sexual, or other, orientation, but disapprove is something else then racism, there are many priests who are gay, and they live as God has called them, a life in celibacy and chastity. If God love gay-people so should we, in fact, it is our duty as Christians. And as God love them, so should we, and if God can forgive them so should we.

Do we get offended if our next door neighbour is let us say Lutheran? I think I can say no, we are not offended nor do we need to move, God did create Lutherans too. We can’t judge what God have done and created, it is not a random thing that we are different, all can’t be Catholics and we must live that fact.

What if a heterosexual person visit a “gay-bar”? Are they offended by it? Nope. Do we hate our kids if they are gay? How could we? We don’t hate what they are, we may disapprove, or get angry, over what they do. Your son or daughter does a stupid thing, what makes you angry, the child or the act? The act of course. It is very simple, gay-people are part of this world and we must adapt to that fact. (We still not need to approve what they MAY DO.)

The only way this night club mangers action can be justified is if he was thinking about the safety of these two men, who may not be gay at all, that is only a assumption, not a fact. In all other cases his action was intolerable and against all Christian moral. Yes, he have a right to chose the customers, it is his establishment, but in order to do that right is to start a private club, members only. Then he can chose his customers, but morally that is wrong also, if we think about it. Sometimes we need to tolerant the very basic fact that all are not what we are, all are not Catholics, all are not even Christians, but that is not wrong, if someone does not share our Christian faith in general, we are still not to judge.

Think about children how they may hold hands, even if they are the same sex. Do we stop them? I hope not. Russian people do kiss when they meet, but they are not necessarily gay. We live on a lonely planet in a universe that have no end no beginning and we must realize that we can’t change that. We simply need to wake up and be what God want us to be, Christians, and that mean that we are not to judge, it is that easy and not hard at all. Of course we have choice, we can hate them, we can be offended, but I don’t think God is all that happy if we start hating His creations. Christian faith is to forgive and understand, and above all, to not hate, hate is a mortal sin, and each and everyone must understand that hating, or being offended, by gay-people, or some other issue we can’t change, is wrong. It is as wrong as wrong can be. And if that hard to live with, go to another club. Hate and racism have never done any good for anyone, never, and never will.

 

[Corki]

It is unlikely that what this club owner did was legal, if these two men were simply dancing.

Fact is, neither of us know what actually happened. If it simply dancing, the club owner may have broken the law. If they were dancing in lewd manner not consistent with what heterosexual couples were doing, then the club owner may be justified in his actions.

Again, I am not debating the legality of what the club owner did. In Texas, the laws for public accomodation are pretty narrow and give a lot of leeway to the business owner to determine if behavior is disruptive. No one denied this couple entry or refused to serve them. That being said, all bets are off when a case like this goes before a jury. But even if the club managers actions are later found to be illegal, that doesn’t mean it is wrong to support him.

As for the morality, this couple identified as a “gay” couple. Whether they did so by words or behavior, we don’t know. Therefore **any dancing **they did as a couple, is going to be, by definition, different from a heterosexual couple dancing. It doesn’t have to be lewd to be immoral. From a Catholic teaching standpoint, that would be immoral behavior. For an answer to the OP, supporting the club owner in his efforts to clear his club of this behavior is not wrong.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

As for the morality, this couple identified as a “gay” couple. Whether they did so by words or behavior, we don’t know. Therefore **any dancing **they did as a couple, is going to be, by definition, different from a heterosexual couple dancing. It doesn’t have to be lewd to be immoral. From a Catholic teaching standpoint, that would be immoral behavior…

By that logic, I suppose if a self-identified gay couple went grocery shopping together, that would, by definition, be “gay shopping”, and from a Catholic teaching standpoint be immoral behavior. And the owner or the grocery store would be morally within his rights to ask them to leave the store, or else shop separately.

 

[Corki]

By that logic, I suppose if a self-identified gay couple went grocery shopping together, that would, by definition, be “gay shopping”, and from a Catholic teaching standpoint be immoral behavior. And the owner or the grocery store would be morally within his rights to ask them to leave the store, or else shop separately.

No, grocery shopping is not dating behavior. Going out on a date to a dance club is. Duh.

 

[SMGS127]

No, grocery shopping is not dating behavior. Going out on a date to a dance club is. Duh.

I don’t know. When I went on errands with my exes, it was basically a date. Anytime I went out in public alone with them, I considered it a date . I think the analogy fits.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I don’t know. When I went on errands with my exes, it was basically a date. Anytime I went out in public alone with them, I considered it a date . I think the analogy fits.

Likewise, going grocery shopping can be the start of a date. Preparing a meal with some one can be more bonding than one might expect.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

No, grocery shopping is not dating behavior. Going out on a date to a dance club is. Duh.

I think you’re right about this.

But is your position that an owner of a dance club should kick anybody out who is engaged in serious sin? Suppose that the owner knows that a husband is on a date with a woman other than his wife?

I mean, for me, there’s a reason I don’t own a dance club: because they are, generally, breeding grounds for sin. That’s why I think that this “line in the sand” with respect to gay couples is not a very clear line. I’m not sure it’s morally permissible for a Christian to run a dance club, in the first place.

(Also, if you’re saying that dancing as a professed “gay couple” is barred, that would mean that it’s OK for two men to dance together otherwise? In other words, if the couple didn’t say they were gay, it would be OK?)

 

[Irish_Cabbie]

My thing is that I feel the owner has the right to run his business as he sees fit.

So if the owner of a hotel doesn’t want to rent a room to blacks, is that okay with you as well? If the owner of a lunch counter doesn’t want to serve Mexicans, it is his right to discriminate?

youtube.com/watch?v=MO49GEwUx5A

Why don’t these men just open up a club in the area for homosexuals?

Why stop at dance clubs? Should we have “separate but equal” restaurants for homosexuals? How about separate but equals schools for homosexual children? Are there any other groups of people that you think should just open up their own club?

Paragraph # 2358 of The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[Lasting_faith]

It is very easy to see what may happen if it’s start with a ban to night clubs because two men dance together, soon everybody need to have a certificate with them to prove that they are married, “straight” and will not sin.

Main problem here is TWO MEN. We can’t for sure say that they are gay, it is not written on their forehead, so we can only assume that they are. And when “the boys” go out and have fun? They MIGHT be gay, but “might” is not evidence, it is a assumption made by someone who THINK they MIGHT be because they are out without girls. And if it is OK for girls to dance together it should be so for men too, and I do not approve what they MAY do, but I can’t be sure that they MAY sin later. Here is however a certain pattern developing, racism, and that is ugly word. The RCC has never stated it is a sin to gay, only that act upon that orientation is, and we should do what The Church teach us, it is our teacher, and two men dancing is not evidence enough, there is a huge reasonable doubt. Think about ballet, girls are dancing together and so are men, but do we see it as sin? No we don’t, we think it is beautiful and we enjoy it. I know it is a bit different, but…

What is interesting is that this would never happen in Europe, and we have a much older history then you have in US. Maybe we are more tolerant, maybe it is not good, but that is how I see it, from a European [Finnish] view, right or wrong. I can’t see it like you do, and I am sure that you in US have a reason for seeing it in another light. As I said, we are maybe more tolerant but that is because The Catholic Church is a thing we have always been around, Italy is the very foundation of Catholic faith, so maybe we look at things from an other perspective, not saying sin is right, but thinking, well, we need to help the sinner and that is not to hide him/her but to talk and above all, understand. We don’t need to approve if we understand. To understand is to be ready to talk, and come up with a solution both parts can live with. I know only one gay guy (funny sentence) and he is OK, I like him, and I don’t feel uneasy being around him, and what I DON’T know is how many gays I really know, truth is that most live in chastity, maybe for religious reasons, maybe they have other reasons. I am not saying we do everything right in Europe, or Finland, we just like to be more open and try to understand and see what can be done, and to forbid a “problem” is not solving it. To sweep it under the rug will not help anyone. No, a solution, and that include all possible problems, is to find a way both parts can be OK with. In this ongoing (and much likely everlasting) debate about gays we all need to step back and give room to others. Heterosexual people are not a minority, but that does not mean we can say what is wrong, we don’t sin, we try to explain why something is a sin, and we recognize that we must live the fact that some are different then us, and go on. There will always be gay-people around us, and even if we don’t approve, we must understand that 99% of them have no intention to offend anyone, They live their life as they chose, and God gave us free will, and we can’t do, and we have no right to do, anything more then accept and try to live in peace with them, and we must ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE understand that God did create them too, so God judge, we don’t. And as a personal thought, why should we be offended if we see men or women dancing together? We are not to say “God, hey, about those gays, a little mistake, maybe you should fix it? It a bit annoying”. Maybe we should say as poor Job did, “God give and God take, blessed be His name”? (Free translation.) If we each day trust God in all other things we maybe should trust Him also in “gay-matters”? I think God do know what He do.

 

[Corki]

I think you’re right about this.

But is your position that an owner of a dance club should kick anybody out who is engaged in serious sin? Suppose that the owner knows that a husband is on a date with a woman other than his wife?

I mean, for me, there’s a reason I don’t own a dance club: because they are, generally, breeding grounds for sin. That’s why I think that this “line in the sand” with respect to gay couples is not a very clear line. I’m not sure it’s morally permissible for a Christian to run a dance club, in the first place.

Not “should” but “may”. Yes. In fact, I have been in bars where the clientele is fairly well known and the bartender kicked a married guy out for being too “familiar” with some of the girls.

It’s not a “line in the sand” but rather a right for a club owner to build a certain environment for his/her clientele.

(Also, if you’re saying that dancing as a professed “gay couple” is barred, that would mean that it’s OK for two men to dance together otherwise? In other words, if the couple didn’t say they were gay, it would be OK?)

Not exactly. Earlier in this thread, there was an example given of two men dancing together as a joke. That’s obviously different that two men dancing together as a couple. It’s perfectly reasonable for the club owner/manger to be OK with the former but not the latter.

 

[Corki]

So if the owner of a hotel doesn’t want to rent a room to blacks, is that okay with you as well? If the owner of a lunch counter doesn’t want to serve Mexicans, it is his right to discriminate?

Being black or Mexican isn’t immoral. Two guys going out on a date and dancing together is immoral. BIG DIFFERENCE. As pointed out before, the owner of the club did not deny entry or service to these men. He just didn’t want them dancing together in his club.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Not exactly. Earlier in this thread, there was an example given of two men dancing together as a joke. That’s obviously different that two men dancing together as a couple. It’s perfectly reasonable for the club owner/manger to be OK with the former but not the latter.

The ironic thing is, in other cultures, men and woman don’t dance together, because it is considered inappropriate and lewd. The men dance with the men, and the woman dance with the woman. The would include Judeo-Christian culture.

 

[Corki]

The ironic thing is, in other cultures, men and woman don’t dance together, because it is considered inappropriate and lewd. The men dance with the men, and the woman dance with the woman. The would include Judeo-Christian culture.

Absolutely right. And if you owned a club where the environment was one of those cultures and asked a male/female couple to stop dancing together or leave, that should be your right too.

 

[Irish_Cabbie]

Anyone who doesn’t see a difference between girls dancing together (usually because the guys can’t or won’t dance) and two “gay” guys dancing together has never been in a dance club. There is an obvious difference.

I see. Lesbians differ from gay men. Thanks for clearing that up. Incidentally, who gets to decide whether two girls dancing together are lesbians or not? Holy, self-righteous people such as yourself?

 

[Corki]

I see. Lesbians differ from gay men. Thanks for clearing that up.

Where did I say anything like that?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Being black or Mexican isn’t immoral. Two guys going out on a date and dancing together is immoral.

But you also admitted in a later posting that in a culture where men dancing together was the norm, it would not be immoral. This leads to the conclusion that morality is not universal, but is relative to the culture in which you find yourself. So it is immoral for those two men to dance together in Texas, but it would not be immoral for them to dance together in some other country. Is that it? I thought that what we call moral and immoral were unchanging absolutes.

 

[Corki]

But you also admitted in a later posting that in a culture where men dancing together was the norm, it would not be immoral. This leads to the conclusion that morality is not universal, but is relative to the culture in which you find yourself. So it is immoral for those two men to dance together in Texas, but it would not be immoral for them to dance together in some other country. Is that it? I thought that what we call moral and immoral were unchanging absolutes.

A) Men dating men is immoral and unchanging.

B) In cultures where men dance together as a norm, it isn’t because they are homosexual couples who are dating but because it is considered immodest for men and women to dance together.

C) In a country music club in Texas, there is not cultural prohibition against men and women dancing together.

D) In another country, it might well be moral for two men to dance together but if they were homosexual men on a date, it would still be immoral. (and I would submit that in the cultures where men regularly dance with men, homosexual dating would be an even bigger issue than it is here in Texas)

Morality is unchanging but it can be affected by situation or environment. It’s perfectly moral for me to have sex with my husband. Not moral for me to do it in my office with the door open. Nor is it moral for me to have sex with another man (not my husband) even if every part of the act is exactly the same.

 

[Irish_Cabbie]

Anyone who doesn’t see a difference between girls dancing together (usually because the guys can’t or won’t dance) and two “gay” guys dancing together has never been in a dance club. There is an obvious difference.

What’s the difference? Why would you presume to think that two women dancing together in a club were not two lesbians on a date? Why would you draw a distinction between two women dancing together and two men dancing together? Who decides when a same-sex couple dancing together is engaged in immoral behavior? Holy, self-righteous people like yourself? Are you possessed with some unique ability that enables you to look at someone and determine whether that person is gay? Is your gaydar really that good?

 

[kozlosap]

Being black or Mexican isn’t immoral. Two guys going out on a date and dancing together is immoral. BIG DIFFERENCE. As pointed out before, the owner of the club did not deny entry or service to these men. He just didn’t want them dancing together in his club.

Since when is going out and dancing immoral? Having sex outside of marriage is considered immoral by the Church, not dancing in club unless you are a stripper. The owner obviously needs to move further into an area there are only straight customers who believe as he does, otherwise he will to be faced with gay people who might wish to socialize at his bar.

 

[Corki]

Since when is going out and dancing immoral? Having sex outside of marriage is considered immoral by the Church, not dancing in club unless you are a stripper. The owner obviously needs to move further into an area there are only straight customers who believe as he does, otherwise he will to be faced with gay people who might wish to socialize at his bar.

Homosexual dating and other homosexual activity is immoral. Dancing is not immoral in and of itself. Immoral homosexual activity is not limited to having sex.

Why should every business owner be expected to acquiesce to pressure to turn their establishments into “gay” ones? And why can’t customers be allowed anywhere to go without this “all gay, all the time” agenda being forced on them?