Am I Wrong?

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Originally Posted by OneTrueCathApos
Theses are Wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Originally Posted by JonNC
Meaning what?
Jon, seriously…you don’t know what this means? :confused:
Of course I do. 😉 I just wanted you to spell it out. So instead, I’ll ask the question: I am inferring into your comment that you are questioning their faith. Is my inference right or wrong?

Personally, I don’t care for their theology or style of ministry, but I am not so bold as to question their faith.

Jon
 
=luke1_28;5837113]Rather than speculate on HOW the bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood, a more fruitful contemplation is WHY…
👍
Now this I agree with!!! Both of our communions would be better off focusing on the why, which you so interestingly state in your post, instead of the how, which, other than what Christ and Paul tell us, is a mystery.

Jon
 
interesting you put it this way." WHAT I BELIEVE THE BIBLE SAYS." no authority just what you believe. how do you know you have the right view? a feeling? just curious. sometimes things just catch my eye.🤷

I’d rather say, ‘What I believe,’ rather than, ‘because I’m told this is what I am to believe.’ I’ll stand before God for what I believe and for what I do with what I believe, not for what someone else (including a church) believes.​

BTW, there’s quite a bit that I believe that your church believes as well. There are other things I believe and are ‘believed’ by good Bible scholars. I’m not a lone ranger, I’m just accountable for myself.
 
Just for the sake of discussion, DTS has God in a box and they can describe in great detail what He thinks about almost everything. They can draw you a picture of the end of the world on the back of a cocktail napkin. I know, I used to be very good at drawing the map myself. God is all wrapped up with a nice neat dispensational bow. They are the keepers of a hermeneutic that goes back only as far as J.N. Darby in the 1830’s and was perpetuated by the likes of Ryrie, Scofield, Lindsey, et.al. .
In my opinion, when you reduce the Christian message to a series of maps, diagrams, and “propositional truths”, you turn the Great Commission into a sales target and Christianity into the world’s ;largest MLM scheme!
 
You’ve never heard of the “Whore of Babylon”?
🙂

Lots of Christian churches teach things that aren’t true. Some teach that baptism is only a symol. That is a false teaching. Does that mean that those who teach and those who believe this aren’t Christian?

By your definition, only Catholics are Christians, since it is only in the Catholic Church that the “fullness” of the truth is found.

If someone sins, he is not a real Christian? One can claim to be a Christian, but it he lies, gossips, cheats on his taxes (even by padding his charitable donations deduction) or swears, by your definition, he is not a Christian. One who is telling a lie isn’t following Jesus–not by your definition.

We’re in agreement on people who think they’re God. They’re either insane or calculating. Still, many say that anyone who commits a horrible act isn’t a real Christian–Real Christians don’t commit serial murders, for example. But you know what? Real Christians commit sins. And some real Christians commit horrible sins, even murder.

John wrote of the mother of harlots and refered to Babylon in Revelation 17:5. So what? I don’t know who that is; I’ll leave that up to God. That’s His business.​

I’ve constantly said on this forum that there is no perfect church. I have little to no doupt that all Christian churches will find out what they taught that was incorrect when they get to Heaven.​

I’ve never said the ‘fullness’ of truth is found in the CC. You must be mixing me up with someone else.​

Please let me in on my definition of what a Christian is. I’ll be sitting on the edge of my chair waiting. (Well, not really.:rolleyes:)​

I’ve never said real Christians don’t sin. I’ve said I’m a sinner and I believe myself to be a Christian. I’m not a Christian because I believe myself to be one. I am only because I’ve been accepted into the family of God by the presious Blood of Jesus and by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.
 
To acknowledge that all have sinned and that there are skeletons in every denominational closet is “casting the first stone”? There is something oddly mechanical and perfunctory about arguments between Christians. Christians seem to try very hard to get themselves offended. I wonder if Buddhists do this? 🤷

I would say that what you’ve said here is not casting a stone, especially if you agree that you and you’re church is included.​

That’s not what I was referring to when I mentioned casting a stone.
 
Of course I do. 😉 I just wanted you to spell it out. So instead, I’ll ask the question: I am inferring into your comment that you are questioning their faith. Is my inference right or wrong?

Personally, I don’t care for their theology or style of ministry, but I am not so bold as to question their faith.

Jon
Faith? But if they are deceiving Jesus Christ by being a wolf in sheep’s clothing, where is their faith? It is not with Christ because if it were, they wouldn’t lie and deceive our Lord and Savior. Why even question? It is blasphemy against our Lord.
 

John wrote of the mother of harlots and refered to Babylon in Revelation 17:5. So what? I don’t know who that is; I’ll leave that up to God. That’s His business.​

I’ve constantly said on this forum that there is no perfect church. I have little to no doupt that all Christian churches will find out what they taught that was incorrect when they get to Heaven.​

I’ve never said the ‘fullness’ of truth is found in the CC. You must be mixing me up with someone else.​

Please let me in on my definition of what a Christian is. I’ll be sitting on the edge of my chair waiting. (Well, not really.:rolleyes:)​

I’ve never said real Christians don’t sin. I’ve said I’m a sinner and I believe myself to be a Christian. I’m not a Christian because I believe myself to be one. I am only because I’ve been accepted into the family of God by the presious Blood of Jesus and by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.
Well, if you’re going to play dumb the conversation is concluded. 👍
 
👍
Now this I agree with!!! Both of our communions would be better off focusing on the why, which you so interestingly state in your post, instead of the how, which, other than what Christ and Paul tell us, is a mystery.

Jon
Here is “WHY”

Can it be true? Is Jesus Really in Catholic Holy Communion?

Jesus Willed to stay with us. Mt. 28: “18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me… and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

The gift from God, of God (His Son, Jesus the Christ) and for God, in that it is the greatest source of grace, leading to our eternal salvation.

When the Catholic priest or bishop pronounces the words: “This is My Body…. This is My Blood” two miracles take place. First the priest is momentarily miraculously transformed into Christ Himself, as it is Christ who makes the transformation (Transubstaniation…Catholic theological term) of what appears to be ordinary bread and wine, into the very Flesh and Blood of Jesus Himself. Thus we proclaim that what was, is no more” The second miracle. Jesus Himself, not a sign, and not a symbol: Jesus Himself is made present. All that remains are “the accidents” that is to say the appearance of bread and wine.

John: Ch. 6:

52The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed

66 after this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. (Deciples …not Apostles.” no longer” means that they deserted Jesus and His teaching.) 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

Jesus didn’t say …oops, “you didn’t understand what I was trying to say.” He simply asked ‘do you not understand, not believe and wish to go away (desert Me)?

Saint Paul: 1st. Corinthians 11:
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 for any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another—34 if any one is hungry, let him eat at home–lest you come together to be condemned. Paul is saying this “this not a meal! It is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Himself.” Were he not saying this, why would one be” condemned” for eating what is only ordinary bread, and drinking ordinary wine? NOT!

Only through the window of Divine Love, can one even come close to understanding why God did this.

Heb. 2: “5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6* It has been testified somewhere, “What is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man, that thou carest for him? 7 Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.”

Desiring to do more, to be more, to save more; Christ became our Bread and our Drink. God didn’t settle for (dare I say) “just” becoming a man like us in every way but sin. Jesus the God-man, didn’t just die for us. No, God who promised to be “with us until the end if time,” (Mt. 28:20), Willed to become an inanimate object, ordinary bread and wine.

Why did Jesus allow Himself to be born as a small, helpless, baby? Remember he was “laid in a manger.” What is a “manager? Something that hold food. Where did this take place? Lk. 2: “15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they went with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. And what does the work “Bethlehem” mean in Hebrew?” It means, “house of bread.”

Jesus came to us as a tiny harmless baby, so as not to scare or to intimidate us. For the very same reason, he assumes the appearance of bread and wine. Mt. 11: 28 ”Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Jesus loves us too much to scare us, to force us, but loves us so very much that He desires to lead us to Himself.

This, my friend can only be understood through the window of Divine Love! 👍

Love and prayers,

Pat
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i Catholic
Code:
		Bishop Fulton Sheen on The Holy Eucharist	

	                  From his Book: The Life of Christ
Dear friends in Christ,

I am reading Bishop Fulton Sheens “Life of Christ “ for the forth time. Next to the Bible, it is my favorite Spiritual book, and like the bible, every time I read it I gain additional understanding.

Today I would like to share with you some of what he has to say about the Catholic Churches understanding and now 2000-year-old Teaching on the Real Presence.

These isolated passages are from Chapter fifteen: The Refusal to be a Bread King

“Until now He has almost everyone behind Him…. But this lofty spiritual doctrine was too much for them. The announcement of the Eucharist cracked His followers wide open. No wonder there has been such a division in sects in Christianity when each man decides for himself whether he will accept a segment of the circle of Christ’s truth or the entire circle. Christ Himself was responsible for this. He asked a faith too much for most men; His doctrine was too sublime. If only He had been a bit more worldly minded, if He only allowed His words to be treated as figures of speech, and if He only been less imperative He might have been more popular.

…… Calvary was the physical Crucifixion, this was the social Crucifixion.

He lost the masses;
He created a schism among his disciples [followers];
He even weakened His Apolosolic band.

How close the masses were to salvation! They wanted life; He wanted to give life. The difference was in there interpretation of life.

…. Or is it the business of Christ to lose all the stomach minded at the cost of reaching only the few with faith, to whom will be given the Bread of Life, and the wine that germinates virgins. …. It is His fault; He is too Divine, too interested in souls, too spiritual for most men.

Our Blessed Lord would certainly never have permitted them to leave if they had not understood what He said, namely, that He would give us His very life for our life. It could only be that understanding it correctly, they could swallow it. And he permitted them to leave. He they left He said to them:

“Does this shock you? What if you to see the Son of Man ascending to the place He was before? [Jn.6:63]

Of course it tried there faith. Do not men have reason? What was He expecting them to believe? That He was god? That every word He said was Absolute Truth? That He would be able to give hungry souls the same Divine Life they saw before them now? Why not forget this Bread of Life and make it a figure of speech? So our Lord watched them leave; and they never came back. One day they would be found stirring up the masses against Him; for although they did not leave Him for the same reason, they were agree they should take leave of Him.

…. The Gospel tells the astounding story that Judas broke with the Divine Lord the same day our Lord announced that He was giving us His Flesh for the life of the world.

At this promise of heavenly Bread, Judas cracked.

… He had lost all three types of people: He saw the masses abandon, the elite walk away, and Judas prepare to betray Him… So He turned to the one to whom He associated with so intimately with Himself, the man whose name He had changed, from Simon to Peter or Rock, and said to him:

Do you also what to leave me? Peter answered him. Lord to whom shall we go? Your words are Eternal Life. We have faith, we know that you are the holy One of God. [Jn.6: 67-69.]

But The Heart of Christ had a Cross on it. One of His own was a traitor. The elite and the five thousand that had been in contact with His hand refused to be in contact with His heart." end quote

So friends, where do we fit into this story?

2 Cor. 4: [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us. [8] We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; [9] persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; [10] always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. [11] For while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. [12] So death is at work in us, but life in you. [13] Since we have the same spirit of faith as he had who wrote, “I believed, and so I spoke,” we too believe, and so we speak,

[14] knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. [15] For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God. [16] So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. [17] For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, [18] because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal. “

Love and prayers.

Pat
 

Why does it matter what I think? It’s not up to me, just as it’s not up to you where I’m in God’s full graces or not. As Jesus said to Peter that it was none of his business what would happen with John so it’s none of my business about those you mention. Do any of them claim to be God or God’s only real spokesmen?​

Bill, do non-Christians have anything to fear from you or the CC?
Why does any one have to fear the CC
 
Why does any one have to fear the CC
Because Bill, they fear the unknown, or they fear that the Catholic church may in fact actually BE the church Christ founded. They are intimidated by it’s Holiness.
 
The reality is that Protestants can spend a lifetime being critical of beliefs found in other Protestant denominations but they are not. The arguments from Protestant, non-Catholic Christians seem to be primarily focused on Catholicism. I have never seen, for example, a thread here started by a Protestant, non-Catholic Christian, addressing Protestant, non-Catholic, “Christian religious leaders” like, Jim Jones, David Koresh or Marshall Applegate. Now, why is that? Is it because these are examples of “personal interpretation of the bible” gone wrong?

I think so.

Am I wrong?
You are precisely correct.
 
The reality is that Protestants can spend a lifetime being critical of beliefs found in other Protestant denominations but they are not. The arguments from Protestant, non-Catholic Christians seem to be primarily focused on Catholicism. I have never seen, for example, a thread here started by a Protestant, non-Catholic Christian, addressing Protestant, non-Catholic, “Christian religious leaders” like, Jim Jones, David Koresh or Marshall Applegate. Now, why is that? Is it because these are examples of “personal interpretation of the bible” gone wrong?

I think so.

Am I wrong?
Those guys you mentioned (for the 100th time) were not Christians. They didn’t even believe that Christ was the Messiah for goodness sakes, and not believing that is pretty much an indicator that what they are espousing isn’t Christianity at all. Can you not stop lumping Protestants in the same pile as crazies such as the guys you mentioned? That’s not the first time you’ve done it, and it’s not the first time you’ve been asked to stop with such gross exaggerations.

And, yes, protestants have criticized those guys because they weren’t in line with Scripture. Get your “facts” straight.
 
Those guys you mentioned (for the 100th time) were not Christians. They didn’t even believe that Christ was the Messiah for goodness sakes, and not believing that is pretty much an indicator that what they are espousing isn’t Christianity at all. Can you not stop lumping Protestants in the same pile as crazies such as the guys you mentioned? That’s not the first time you’ve done it, and it’s not the first time you’ve been asked to stop with such gross exaggerations.

And, yes, protestants have criticized those guys because they weren’t in line with Scripture. Get your “facts” straight.
Please read the last line of his post again, then answer it.
 
=OneTrueCathApos;5843444]Because Bill, they fear the unknown, or they fear that the Catholic church may in fact actually BE the church Christ founded. They are intimidated by it’s Holiness.
At times yes, and at times NO!

But you are completely correct in saying that the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ itself is always holy.

Many outside of the Catholic Church seem to feel that the Church and the people in it are one and the same. In a sense we are, but theologically the Church, One, Holy, Catholic and Apolostolic, is an enity onto itself.

It not only makes God Present “REALLY”] in our midst, She is God’s Presence in our midst.

Love and prayers friends,

Pat
 
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