Amazing Facts bible study guide

[adventistnomore]

It’s also important to know that “Mission College” is a very conservative independent institution, out of the Adventist mainstream. They are more likely to have a conspiracist vision of Catholicism, though not necessarily.

Ironically, I considered attending the school when I was younger.

You may be interested in conversing with them, but be sure you are solidly grounded in the faith. If you do, I invite/urge you to keep in close touch with the former Adventists on this blog, including myself. Also, use these resources that address Adventist claims:

sda2rc.com
ww.diesdomini.com
sda2rc.blogspot.com
theotokos.co.za/adventism

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You may be interested in conversing with them, but be sure you are solidly grounded in the faith. If you do, I invite/urge you to keep in close touch with the former Adventists on this blog, including myself. Also, use these resources that address Adventist claims:

sda2rc.com
ww.diesdomini.com
sda2rc.blogspot.com
theotokos.co.za/adventism

Hi adventistnomore,

Thank you for posting these links! Looking through them has only confirmed my decision to join the Catholic Church. I was at CUC when Walter Rae wrote “The White Lie”. I feel as though the scales have fallen from my eyes just since this past April when the Lord blessed me with resolution of the Biblical issues I still had that were preventing me from making the total committment. All I can say is “I once was blind, but now I see”. One amazing fact that I just “discovered” this past April was the fact that in the creation story in Genesis, there is no mention of evening and morning in the 7th day. Each of the first six days of creation in Genesis end with, “…and the evening and the morning were the first through the sixth day”…but it does not say that for the 7th day. I now understand why that is, but for all these years…since 1979…I believed that wording and designation was there. I brought this up to a good SDA friend of mine recently, and when I asked him if it was there, he said “yes”. I told him to go get a Bible and look it up…he did…and he was amazed that that was not the case. I asked him to find out how the SDA church dealt with that. He wrote to Amazing Facts and called me when they sent their answer. Their answer was evasive and they just could not answer that question…and my SDA friend noticed the side stepping that Amazing Facts was doing. That “evening and morning” phrasing is so core to SDA theology regarding the 7th day Sabbath…and yet it is missing from the very beginning when the 7th day was created. That and the fact that only God rested and he no where commanded Adam and Eve to rest. I am wondering how all these years, having read that verse hundreds of times, how I could have missed that? May I ask you…when you were an SDA were you under that same impression regarding the wording in Genesis on the 7th day. Thanks!

 

[adventistnomore]

Hi Patrick,

I’ve heard that observation made before, though I haven’t read too much into it. Reason being, if the Sabbath was conceived of something lacking an “evening” and “morning,” there might not have been reason to keep it on every seventh day of the week (evening and morning). But I’m not sure this conclusively lays the point to rest.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Mercygate

Thank you for your sweet, loving reply, it really touched my heart.
From the other replies, it is obvious that every person has extremely strong feelings on this subject. I am not sure I understood your posting 100% – are you saying that we can not take the Bible literally, that it doesn’t actually mean what it says?

I know there is a lot of confusion over the Bible, but to me it seems to be God’s manual to find Heaven. If we don’t follow the manual for our new car, camera etc. and follow people’s advice, then we might use the wrong oil etc. and our car’s engine could cease on us. Is it not the same with the Bible?

I see 2 problems:

1. many people believe the Bible was DICTATED by God – every word exactly from heaven. This leads to weird conclusions, when people take it 100% literal – take the parable of the 10 virgins – taken LITERALLY, it means that there are only going to be 10 virgins (bad luck to us married folk) waiting for Christ (the groom) to take us to the wedding (banquet when Christ takes us to heaven)…
   – take the parable of Lazarus and the rich man – taken literally it means heaven will be a miserable place – I’ll have to lie in Father Abraham’s bosom forever (I would choke on that), look out my window and hear my wife/friend/child screaming in pain across the canyon while they are burning in hell (ouch!) for a million years…

This makes people reject God completely, or go to the other extreme…

1. The Bible does NOT mean what it say, just SPIRITUALIZE everything! When God says He made the earth in 6 literal days (in Hebrew, the word for `day’ combined with a number =always 24 hours), we say each day= a million years etc…
   or Peter walked on the water (scientifically impossible), all lies…
   or Daniel predicted the coming of the Messiah plus his death in 30/31 AD exactly in Daniel 8 & 9 (nobody knows the future), so we reject all Bible prophecy!

I have found a more helpful model on Bible inspiration to be THOUGHT INSPIRATION – the Holy Spirit inspired the thoughts of the authors, as well as the church fathers who combined them in what we call the Bible. When I now read my Bible, I accept it to be 100% true and God-inspired via the Holy Spirit, but I interpret it like all good literature should be done – first comes prayer that the Holy Spirit will enlighten my mind, then I read in context, and in comparison with the rest of the Bible. A parable is always a parable – a story told to teach a central theme (individual parts of the story are not that important), a prophetic or symbolic section talking about beasts with weird heads etc. is obviously symbolic.
When Christ says: I am the door/bread/light – is He literally a wooden door, peace of dough, light beam? Of cours not! This is symbolic language. Same with `this is my blood/body’… He is obviously referring to the symbolism – wheat gets ground/baked to become bread, and wine/grape juice is a crushed grape – this symbolizes Christ’s agony and death on the cross…

And a literal saying means just that. If Christ says: do not steal, He means it. If He says: Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy, 6 days shalt thou labour… but the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God… then he means 7 and not 1 or 6!

Once again, thank you so much for your lovely Christian reply.
You made my day. God bless,

Friedrich

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Patrick Murebil

There is a reason that we have met here, and it may not be what we at first think it to be. I would love to hear about your journey should you accept this offer of a subject to study from the scriptures only. It took me two years to understand, yet the grace that God has given me was well worth the sores of the journey

Thank you for your testimony. Do read the previous posting in my answer to Mercygate. I appreciate your offer, but am puzzled by your logic.

There is obviously a vast difference between something that is symbolic and something that is literal. Lets take the Last Supper:

i. Jesus washed the disciples’ feet – was it their FEET, or something else? Obviously it was their feet. The ceremony was a symbol of cleansing, like in baptism.
ii. Jesus broke the bread – was it BREAD, or was it muscles, bones and fat? Obviously it was ground wheat, baked and ready to eat, without yeast. It symbolized Jesus’ body that had to be broken on the cross for our sins.
iii. Jesus poured the `wine’ (fresh grape juice!) – was it WINE, or was it a sticky, salty red substance that clots when in contact with air? Obviously it was freshly produced grape juice. It symbolized Jesus’ blood that was to be spilt for our salvation.

When we interpret Scripture CONSISTENTLY, it saves us a lot of confusion! God bless,

Friedrich

 

[mercygate]

Dear Patrick Murebil

Thank you for your testimony. Do read the previous posting in my answer to Mercygate. I appreciate your offer, but am puzzled by your logic.

There is obviously a vast difference between something that is symbolic and something that is literal. Lets take the Last Supper:

i. Jesus washed the disciples’ feet – was it their FEET, or something else? Obviously it was their feet. The ceremony was a symbol of cleansing, like in baptism.
ii. Jesus broke the bread – was it BREAD, or was it muscles, bones and fat? Obviously it was ground wheat, baked and ready to eat, without yeast. It symbolized Jesus’ body that had to be broken on the cross for our sins.
iii. Jesus poured the `wine’ (fresh grape juice!) – was it WINE, or was it a sticky, salty red substance that clots when in contact with air? Obviously it was freshly produced grape juice. It symbolized Jesus’ blood that was to be spilt for our salvation.

When we interpret Scripture CONSISTENTLY, it saves us a lot of confusion! God bless,

Friedrich

Friedrich, you have doubled back on yourself in your interpretation of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Taking one thing at a time, would Jews be using grape juice for their Passover meal? Since grape juice begins to ferment the minute the grapes are crushed (or even on the vine if they are left for too long), the idea that grape juice was used at the Last Supper is simply insupportable.

 

[adventistnomore]

Friedrich…

Um… you’ve made a straw man argument. Catholics believe that the Eucharist looks and feels like real bread and wine in every way (accidents/appearances). Your string of arguments tries to prove that the Eucharist is merely bread and wine from the fact that it looked, smelled, and tasted like bread and wine.

But, as Paul says, that the Eucharist does not merely represent, but also accesses the Christ’s body and blood, so that we may participate in them: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor 10:16). This is why Jesus could say: “This is my body; This is my blood.”

Adventists do believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, nor do they believe that they can participate in the real body and blood of Christ through the Eucharist. (They believe it only symbolizes the body and blood of Christ… not that it actually accesses the same). This is radically unbiblical.

 

[fbl9]

take the wedding miracle at Cana where our Lord turned water into WINE not grape juice.for if it was actually grape juice then the host at the wedding party is a liar.how do i know this? it is simple many moon ago i knew how to partee and at the end of the night when i had my"fill" i wouldn’t been able to discern between good beer or bad beer.so either the host is a liar and scripture records a lie as truth or some one else has been lied too.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear MercyGate and fbl9

Thank you once again for your positive, friendly replies. I didn’t want us to get side-tracked – the original problem was about whether the Bible is 100% trustworthy or not.
You both were concerned about me mentioning grape juice. Do yourself a favour and ask any Jew (that is what Jesus was) wether they were allowed (in Jesus’ time) to use alcoholic beverages at weddings, in the company of females and children. The answer is a resounding NO! They had pretty effective ways of preserving grape juice in a pure state in those days (see research done by a Vatican scholar, Dr Samuele Bacchiocci, on this subject).
So – imagine Jesus’ first miracle on earth = giving his disciples and friends booze at a wedding to make them drunk (this was not allowed in Jewish culture), or during the last supper, to get them sozzled – this booze' represented Jesus' pure blood! Same with the bread -- it had to be yeast free, symbolizing Jesus' sinless life/body. Even on the cross, Jesus refused the stupifying potion of vinegar and drugs they offered him to deaden his pain. Why? To keep His mind clear in order to stay sinless and defeat Satan. Would Christ not do the same for His followers during Communion? Sadly, there are many examples of clergymen who have become alcoholics because of their use of too much of the communion wine... Alcohol does not fit into the symbolism used for Christ! Rather try a spotless lamb, bread without yeast, and wine’ without alcohol… That is consistent with the rest of Scripture.

God bless

Friedrich

 

[mercygate]

Dear MercyGate and fbl9

Thank you once again for your positive, friendly replies. I didn’t want us to get side-tracked – the original problem was about whether the Bible is 100% trustworthy or not.
You both were concerned about me mentioning grape juice. Do yourself a favour and ask any Jew (that is what Jesus was) wether they were allowed (in Jesus’ time) to use alcoholic beverages at weddings, in the company of females and children. The answer is a resounding NO! They had pretty effective ways of preserving grape juice in a pure state in those days (see research done by a Vatican scholar, Dr Samuele Bacchiocci, on this subject).
So – imagine Jesus’ first miracle on earth = giving his disciples and friends booze at a wedding to make them drunk (this was not allowed in Jewish culture), or during the last supper, to get them sozzled – this booze' represented Jesus' pure blood! Same with the bread -- it had to be yeast free, symbolizing Jesus' sinless life/body. Even on the cross, Jesus refused the stupifying potion of vinegar and drugs they offered him to deaden his pain. Why? To keep His mind clear in order to stay sinless and defeat Satan. Would Christ not do the same for His followers during Communion? Sadly, there are many examples of clergymen who have become alcoholics because of their use of too much of the communion wine... Alcohol does not fit into the symbolism used for Christ! Rather try a spotless lamb, bread without yeast, and wine’ without alcohol… That is consistent with the rest of Scripture.

God bless

Friedrich

Even if your Cana speculation were true, the Passover requires the use of wine, by which is meant fermented juice of the grape. “Wine” is often used as a figure for “life” or “blood” throughout the O.T.

I am not in a position to question Our Lord’s judgment concerning His choice of elements in instituting the memorial Sacrifice of His Body and Blood.

Nobody ever “became” an alcoholic by drinking “too much Communion wine.” Anybody who understands alcoholism knows that alcohol does not create alcoholism. Abuses of sacramental wine are just that: abuses. Would you say that sex should be abolished because there are rapists?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Even on the cross, Jesus refused the stupifying potion of vinegar and drugs they offered him to deaden his pain. Why? To keep His mind clear in order to stay sinless and defeat Satan.
Would Christ not do the same for His followers during Communion?

Friedrich

Dear Friedrich,

Thank you for writing back and referring me to your post to Mercygate. I can assure you that both you and I share the same perspecitves, beliefs, and methods for interpreting the scriptures. Parables are parables, commands are commands, and symbols are symbols.

At the last supper, Jesus said “This IS MY body”. He did not say that it was a symbol of his body. He washed the disciples feet because that was the custom (custom, tradition) of servants. You and I both know what Jesus was teaching the disciples about service, Godly, holy service as disciples of the Master. So what was he trying to teach the disciples by eating the Passover dinner with them? The Passover dinner from the time it was first eaten in Egypt was a symbol. But what was it a symbol of? You and I both know that is was a symbol of the Lamb of God slain for our salvation. For Moses and those enslaved in Egypt it was the symbol of God’s deliverance from slavery to the promised land. And now we find Jesus eating the Passover meal with his disciples, and he holds up the bread which was the symbol of The Lamb of God, and declares to his disciples, before the crucifixion, THIS IS MY BODY. In other words he was preparing them for what was about to come, the sacrifice of The Lamb of God. He declared to them that type met anti-type, symbol met reality, Jesus was the Passover Lamb, his body is the Passover meal, He is the Saviour, Deliverer, the fulfillment of all symbols pointing to God’s wonderful plan of salvation. At that moment during the Last Supper, Jesus told his disciples that there is no more symbol of the Lamb of God that his people must eat to be delievered. He held up the bread and said THIS IS MY BODY…he was the reality of the symbol. You and I both know that God is not a liar…and why can he not lie? Because He speaks and it is. He created the universe and all that is in it by His Word, by speaking and it was so. He said be healed and people were healed, He said your sins are forgiven and sins were forgiven. He said he would be offered up as a sacrifice for all mankind and in three day he would rise…he was offered up as a sacrifice and in three days he rose from the dead. And there were many witnesses to his resurrection, and read in the Bible how those witnesses to his resurrection all did something similar with the Risen Jesus…they ate, and drank with him. I will write more on this in my next post because I know I’m running out of room. But when Jesus says THIS IS MY BODY, then to believe otherwise would be to call Jesus a liar. And it is his body for this reason, and for no other reason, and that is because Jesus himself said it was.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friedrich (con’t. 2)

God cannot lie because whatever he says, he creates, and it becomes real. So before the crucifixion, Jesus said THIS IS MY BODY. He declared himself to be the Passover Lamb. He declared himself to be the Passover meal…his body, his blood, given for us for our salvation and to reconcile us with God. So then he tells the disciples to eat this meal in memory of him. To remember the sacrifce he made for us as often as we eat that meal.

He offered himself as our sacrifice and in three days he rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven. He told his disciples and all his followers that he would be with us always, even to the end of the world. And how is he with us always even to the end of the world? He sent the Holy Spirit, the Comforter to be with us…to lead us into all truth, to establish his Church on this earth to do his work under his guidance, which is to carry on the earthly ministry that Jesus revealed when he walked among us and healed, and cast out demons, and showed love and forgiveness to the unlovable and unforgivable. He gave life and hope to the lifeless and the hopeless. And isn’t a miracle what Jesus calls his people, his Church, those who trust and believe in him, those he called to continue his work on this earth until he comes? He calls us His Body.

And how are we his body? By eating his body and drinking his blood…The Passover Meal, The Lamb of God slain for us. What a blessing Jesus gave us by remaining with us in this world in the only way he can until he makes all things new in the new earth…and that is by being with us now as he was 2000 years ago…his spirit and his body…the Holy Spirit as the comforter, and his living, sacrificed, resurrected, glorified body…the Holy Spirit that seals us as his own, purchased with his blood…and his Body and Blood given for us as often as we eat it in rememberance of him. And as we eat his flesh and drink his blood, he comes to us where we are in worship, and becomes one with us making us members of His Body, His Chruch…and in the communion of all believers with Jesus, when we receive him, he receives us and elevates us to be part of his resurrected body, and now we all are part of the one and same body which is the Risen Lord Jesus Christ. We as Christians become one through these miracles of receivng the Holy Spirit of God, and receiving his body and blood. Jesus is with us always, making us one with him, with each other, in the beautiful plan of salvation. Jesus is truly with us through His Holy Spirit and through the life giving sacrifice of the cross…the sacrifice of his body and the power of life to give us by his resurrection. His body…his real body with us in the only way he can be at this time and that is through the bread and wine at communion transformed by his very own words in to his body and blood given for us. It is a miracle and a blessing of love and life!

It is the Passover meal which pointed to the cross, and it is still the Passover meal that points back to the cross. A hope for those looking forward, and a hope for us looking back. The sacrifice of the Lamb of God that Jesus presents to the Father in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest for the forgiveness of our sins and life eternal in communion with God and all the redeemed.

see my next post for the last of this letter to you

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friedrich (con’t 3)

And now today, 2000 years after the fact, we too are witnesses to the resurrection. And how can that be? In the same way the first eye witnesses were witnesses…by eating and drinking with the Risen Lord. And he provides us not only evidence of his resurrection, but accepts us as partakers and participants in the resurrection into life eternal. We are heirs of the promise. Yet it is only possible to enter into life by accepting the promise through faith…accepting the Passover Lamb…accepting the Lamb of God…accepting the Risen Lord…and entering life by eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Below is a passage from John 6, when Jesus taught his disciples this truth…this amazing fact…and many turned and were sad and left Jesus because the teaching was too hard for them. And as they walked away sad, Jesus, the great healer and dryer of tears, did not call after them and say “Wait, come back, I didn’t mean this for real, I only meant it as a symbol…it was only symbolic, you don’t understand”. No, Jesus didn’t say that. This is what Jesus said that caused many to walk away sad…and why should we be sad I ask?:

Jesus the Bread of Life New International Version:
25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34"Sir," they said, “from now on give us this bread.”
35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
**52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” **59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friedrich (con’t 4)

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Even on the cross, Jesus refused the stupifying potion of vinegar and drugs they offered him to deaden his pain. Why? To keep His mind clear in order to stay sinless and defeat Satan.
Would Christ not do the same for His followers during Communion?
Friedrich

Dear Friedrich,

I would like to address your quote above regarding Jesus refusing the stupifying potion of vinegar and drugs for the moment. Let’s set aside the discussion of unfermented grape juice versus fermented grape juice. If it was unfermented grape juice, it would still become Jesus blood by Jesus’ word.

But let’s look at Jesus refusal of taking the vinegar drink along his walk to Calvary. I think you and I both agree that this drink being offered to Jesus was something other than refreshing water or unfermented grape juice. I think we both agree that what was offered to Jesus (as well as to all those being crucifed) was something strong to deaden the pain…that was common for executions of that time period…as today with lethal injection a chemical is injected into the criminal to put him to sleep as he is being executed. Now I don’t know if there were drugs in the vinegar of Jesus time to deaden the pain, but I do believe it was a strong fermented alcoholci drink. I have in the past drank cider that hardened on its own in the container, and I have also drank cider that was specifically fermented as a social drink. Hard apple cider, apple vinegar, can all be made by man for various reasons. So I think it is safe to say that you and I agree that the vinegar offered to Jesus was at the least, alcoholic, in order to relieve pain.

Now, I’m not sure how familiar you are with the celebration of the Passover meal as observed by Jews. But there is a progression of 4 cups of wine (I believe that is accurate if my memory serves me, but I am accepting of correction on this number… forget fermeted or unfermented) taken during the Passover Seder. Jesus shared all but the last cup with his disciples (and you can study this in the Biblical account to save my typing fingers. Then as you follow the progression of Jesus from the last supper to the Garden. There is he praying to his Father for the strength to offer himself as The Passover Lamb, The Lamb of God, for all mankind. And as you and I both know, he even prayed to his Father that if it was possible, to let this cup pass, be taken away from him, not nevertheless, not his will but God’s will be done.

So what cup is Jesus talking about? Could it possibly be the last cup of the Passover Seder that he didn’t drink at the Last Supper? The last cup of the Passover Meal was the fulfillment of the Passover Seder. Well, if the cup Jesus was talking about is actually the last cup of the Passover meal, when did he drink it? We know he was offered vinegar as he was carrying his cross to Calvary. And when it was offered to him he turned away and refused it. Finally he is on the cross taking our sins upon himself, offering his life as the real Passover Lamb. How can he drink the final cup of the Passover hanging on the cross for you and me? And if he did not drink the final cup of the Passover, how could he be the real Lamb of God…the real Passover Lamb…how could the symbolism of the Passover be fulfilled by the reality of the true Lamb of God?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friedrich (con’t Passover 2)

From the New International Version:

The Death of Jesus
28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Yes, that’s right…he RECEIVED the drink offered in a sponge on the end of, of all things, a stalk of the hyssop plant…the very same plant used as a brush in the original Passover in Egypt to paint the blood of the lamb around the door of the dwellings of God’s faithful to protect from the Destroying Angel.

This was the final cup of the Passover meal…the REAL Passover. And this wine vinegar mentioned above was most likely, as I think we already admitted, was at the least fermented…I don’t think there were other medications in it. And please let’s NOT view this as an argument about booze, this is so much more important than that. It was the actual fulfillment of Passover…The reality to which the symbols pointed. And now when Jesus says “THIS IS MY BODY”…it is reality…the symbol has been fulfilled…and that is indeed such good news for you and me Friedrich!!!

As for the verse above, it is the same in every version of the Bible, even the Greek NT which I had to go back and check just to make sure. Because like you Friedrich, if you remember my earlier post, I was a Seventh-day Adventist’s Seventh-day Adventist…and there was no way my Savior would have drank any fermented beverage. And like you I never read the words in that verse above…or at least having read those words hundreds of times, even preaching about them…I NEVER saw what it was saying. He received the wine vinegar as the consumation cup of the actual Passover, and then proclaimed the Passover meal as completed…he said “It is finished”, bowed his head, and offered his life before sundown so his bones would not be broken by the righteous people who did not want a living person hanging on the cross during the Sabbath. And please understand, this is not about booze or the Sabbath…It is about the reality of our salvation and the assurance of our resurrection and eternal life, by receiving the sacrifice of Jesus, offered once for all, which is now being presented to the Father by Jesus our High Priest for all who accept throughout all the ages of mankind upon this earth until our Saviour, our Lord, our King, our God comes to take us home!!
Such good news!!!
God bless you!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friedrich,

Oh I forgot to mention that the above bible quote is from John 19, the verses are in the quote!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thanks all for your responses. I didn’t know SDA’s were so anti-Catholic, I’m not so sure now that I want to engage the gentleman in discussion when he returns, though I’m surely on their radar now…
I’ll do a bit of research and see what I can gather - I think I’ll just try to hand him some material, in the spirit of reciprocation of the material he gave me.

To Jennifer123 and all who read this thread. I apologize for writing so much on here. I am 49 years old, new to this type of electronic communication. In looking at other threads on this site, I got the feeling that I was not abiding by the rules and staying on subject. I got involved in this thread feeling a need to communicate with Friedrich regarding the Biblical truth that I have discvoered in Catholic teachings. And I would love to know Friedrich’s thoughts regarding Jesus receiving the wine vinegar on the cross since he, just like myself until recently, believed that to not be true. I would like to take this opportunity to get back to the topic of the Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) Church’s ministry of Amazing Facts. What I’m about to write are only suggestions for those who desire to know more about the how’s and why’s of SDA evangelism, and some things you may ask them to explain, such as Jesus receiving the wine vinegar on the cross. For my Catholic brothers and sisters these are questions that may slow down their zeal in trying to convert you. To my SDA brothers and sisters I only ask that you consider what I suggest with much prayer for guidance and light from the Holy Spirit. For everyone else…well…the value of what I will write will be up to you to determine. To all, if what I write is helpful, or a spark for further study and dialogue, please refer your friends to this post. There are just too many forums on here for me to get to all that relate to what I will say. So for now, back to Amazing Facts.

When I joined the SDA church in 1978, Joe Crews was the head of Amazing Facts (AF) (and if I’m correct he was also the minister who began the AF ministry). I had the opportunity to hear Pastor Crews preach on many occaisions, and to visit with him in his home on a couple of occasions. This was because I was involved in a prison ministry with his two sons Larry and Dennis. We all lived in Maryland at the time. Pastor Crews, in my observations, was a man who loved Jesus more than anything, and had a deep sincere love for people. He had a tremendous committment to preaching the gospel and for leading souls to Jesus, and thus to eternal life. He was one of the finest Protestant preachers and Christians I ever had the honor of meeting, and had the highest quality of Christian character. Myself, being what I would call “conservative” and “traditionalist”, watched Pastor Crews stand up always for what he believed was right. He did this confidently and without fear, and at times he was ignored and even laughed at by SDA church leaders…and I know because I witnessed that from time to time. As the SDA church began its journey to becoming more liberal, Pastor Crews stood up for what he believed was right. And at the time I knew Larry and Dennis, they were committed Christians like their father. For any SDAs reading this who might know Larry or Dennis and ask them if they knew Patrick Murebil, they will tell you no, because Patrick Murebil is the sign-on name I chose when I set up an account on Cathoic Answers.

That being said, make no mistake about it, the SDA Church teaches that the Roman Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation, and that the office of the pope (and thus anyone who assumes that office) is the anti-christ. That worshipping on Sunday (the first day of the week) is the mark of the beast, and that keeping the 7th day Sabbath (Saturday) is the seal of God. To my SDA brothers and sisters, do a concordance search on the word “seal” in the Bible and praerfully consider what it says about the seal being the reception of the Holy Spirit.

See (con’t) 2

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

AF (con’t) 2

Officially it is not hatred or bigotry, that leads SDAs to your door, or to invite you to Revelation semiars, but a desire to save souls from being deceived and destroyed in hell. I speak only for myself when I say that I certainly had a bigotry, or prejucice, against Catholicism, which not only fuled my fervor as an SDA, but blinded me to clear statements in the Bible…such as Jesus receiving wine vinegar on the cross…whether blinded by my own pride in thinking I knew it all and was right, or blinded by some bewitching, or bedevilment, I cannot say …all I know is that I was blinded, and now I am being healed and getting my sight back. And Friedrich and any other SDAs if you are reading this, please rest assured that Jesus receiving wine vinegar on the cross in no way detracted from His divinity, His sacrifice, His resurrection, or the life He has to offfer us. It did not make him a drunkard or a sinner. Drunkeness is condemned in the Bible, not drinking.

In the SDA church, as in many protestant chruches, there is great emphais placed on “winning souls”. Not only is this considered an integral part of the Christian life in evangelism, but there is a high regard given to “soul winners” (i.e., those who bring in converts) and there is a certain status and glory acheieved for those who do…and not that this is necessarily a bad thing…but it can grow into something so different than what Jesus showed us in how to meet people and witness to them about The Kingdom. For example, at one job fair where SDA conference presidents came to interview us theology majors, one president was overheard talking to another president about the need to “increase tithing units”. This may not be such a bad thing either, because converts finding Jesus is good, and people are certainly needed to financially support the physcial structures and offices of the churches. Having myself worked to “win souls”, I know that it is not uncommon to begin to develop the attitude that the ends justify the means, and examples of this are too numerous to document here. But this is something all Christians need to gurard against. For example, when my family and I moved back to my hometown in the 90s, having left an SDA church in another location, my wife met a woman in the checkout line in the store. As they talked, it came up that the woman was an SDA, and my wife told her that I was too. Of course the woman lit up and wanted to contact me. My wife said "no, please don’t do that, my husband is sensitive right now. This was because I had just finished a two year correspondence with the president of the Columbia Union, and the General Conference regarding abortion policy in SDA hospitals. The Union president at first tried to put me off assuring me that there were many rumors going around about that, and they were not true. I called Dr. Camilla Hersh, an Ob/Gyn at Arlington hospital (Virginia) at the time who was very involved in the pro-life movement. She told me where I could obtain statistics on medical procedures in Maryland hospitals, and I did. In three Maryland SDA hospitals there were a couple thousand abortions performed in a two year period, with proceeds of over a million dollars. Arlington hospital only performed about 18 to 20 abortions over the same time period, and they were a secular public hospital. The SDA church leadership was not concerned about that issue, and I have since met other SDA church members (clergy and laity) who tried to fight that battle with church leadership only to arrive at the same end. This was one reason, I decided to not go back to the SDA church after my move.

When My wife told me that she met that woman in the store, I told her that the woman would be calling or coming to see us. My wife assured me that she told the woman not to, and the woman promised that she would not contact me but wait for my call, and she gave my wife her card. I knew the woman would be coming by nonetheless. And she and her husband did show up one saturday afternoon. Under any other circumstance I would invite anyone in. I did not invite them in, because I was not going to reward her after she told my wife that she wouldn’t come by, and that she would wait for me to contact her. She and her husband came by a second time and told me that my friends at the church missed me and would like to see me again. And friends in that church they were and are, yet I did not go back. I asked them to not come by anymore, and that I would keep in mind what they said. I later saw a little article about this woman in the Adventist Review for her “soul winning” work. It is one of the greatest honors for an SDA. It disappointed me that she told my wife one thing knowing what she was going to do regardless of respecting our request, yet I still believe that in her heart she was doing what she did out of love and concern for me.

See AF (con’t) 3

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

AF (con’t) 3

Yes, SDAs have the goal of spreading their message and converting people to their chruch. I have nothing against that, but the ends don’t always justify the means, and more importantly, you have to look at what the message and teachings are of any church you might consider joining, or with whose members you choose to dialogue. In all my years of witnessing and evangelizing for the SDA chuch, I would tell people what the Bible taught, and what Catholics taught and believed and why that revealed their Church as the beast of Revelation and the pope as the anti-christ. And all I can say at this point in time is that I HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA NOR UNDERSTANDING of what the Catholic Church taught or believed. And the interesting thing is, I’ve also read posts on this web site where the history and teachings of the SDA church are misunderstood and misrepresented, and a certain blindness and bigotry shines forth here from time to time…and then I come across the Christian blessing when I read Catholics and SDAs who communicate in a loving sensible Christian way…and I realize human nature is a strange thing indeed. It is important to not misrepresent the teachings of any church. It is important to look at the facts, beliefs, and to reason together in the spirit of holiniess and love provided only from our God. I believe that some very core SDA teachings are in error…scriptural error…teachings that form the foundation of their church doctrine. And if that is indeed the case, then what it means for Catholics is that they need to be aware of the misson and message of the SDA church; and what it means to SDAs with whom I share such an attachment, is that they need to prayerfully study these issues. So what follows are some suggestions for Catholics to bring up to SDAs should they choose to talk with them, and for SDAs to study further. For all, The Chatechism of the Catholic Church is the best place to discover what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. For all SDAs whose eschatological belief system is so closely tied to the Catholic Church, reading this book should be mandatory for you, so that you will not appear foolish as I did stating as fact things about the Catholic church that just aren’t true. So here are just a few thoughts:

1. John 19:28-30…Jesus receives the wine vinegar on the cross…we’ve already discussed this.
2. The seventh day Sabbath is the core issue with the SDA Chruch and the central theme of its message. They teach that it was instituted on the 7th day of creation. Each of the preceeding 6 days of the creation story in Gen. 1 ends with a declaration that the evening and the morning were that day. This is the case for a literal 7 day creation period, each day being defined by evening and morning, just as days are defined now. This and the fact that there is no astronomical phenomenon to establish a 7 day week, like there is for a day (earth rotation on its axis), a month (moon’s complete rotation around the earth), or a year (earth’s rotation around the sun). There is no natural phenomenon for a 7 day week.

And yet when we read about the 7th day in Gen. 2:1-2 the following: 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Why is there no mention at the end of the 7th day of the evening and the morning were the 7th day? Why did only God rest from His creative work? Why is there no command to Adam and Eve to rest and keep holy the 7th day? Could it possibly be that, since creation was perfect and this was before the fall of man, that the 7th day…the day God rested…was the eternal communion between God and man, the joy of the Father and His children living and walking and enjoying all of creation together? This rest of God was the original plan for man. This rest of God in full communion with his creatures was the plan for all eternity following this creation event. And then sin entered the world with the fall of man, and everything drastically changed requiring another plan to be implemented for man, God’s creation, to restore him to the origianl relationship with God before sin entered the world. And the rest of the Bible tells of that plan.