Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Patrick_Murebil]

1. The next mention of the 7th day is in the story of the Passover and the exodus of God’s people from Egypt in Ex.12:15-16, Ex. 13:6. Notice in Ex. 12:16 On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat—that is all you may do.
2. The next reference to the 7th day comes during the wanderings when God supplied manna to His people in Ex.16:26-30. God gives His people the Sabbath. Why? To begin to instruct them about His Rest. And what is His Rest? It is eternal communion with our Father as intended at creation before the fall of man. God begins instructing His people about that goal, and how He plans to get us back to that origianl state. And we can even say the the 7th day Sabbath from that point on was an actual 24 hour period, and I believe we can even be safe to say that it is the same day we now call Saturday. Why? Because the traditions of the Jewish people have been preserved to this present time.
3. The next mention is when God made the covenant with Moses at Sinai. Ex 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Notice here the 7th day is A sabbath.

And again in Ex.31:12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 " ‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ " 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

In making their case for observance of the 7th day sabbath (saturday) today, SDAs will talk about the lasting covenant written by the finger of God Himself. In fact it is the only thing written in the Bible that was actually written by God. And yet look at what he inscribed with His finger highlighted in bold above. Even the best SDAs do not put anyone to death for doing work on the sabbath. Ask them why they do not adhere to this since all of the above was inscribed by the finger of God himself. And not only is God talking about the 7th day sabbath here, but he commands them that they must observe, in that first verse, His sabbaths…plural. And this is where an understanding of God’s covenantial relationship with his people is necessary to study and understand. Read “A Father Who Keeps His Promises” by Scott Hahn for a really good understanding of this…it’s available at Amazon.com. He explains and teaches this wonderfully!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

AF (con’t)

Finally…
6. Heb. 4: 1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."5And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.” 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

What is God’s rest? Go back to Genesis to the 7th day of creation…it is eternal life in communion with our Father as intended in the beginning, lost through sin, and restored through the plan of salvaiton, Jesus’ sacrifice, death, resurrection, ascension, and return to the full restoration of what was originally intended. The fulfillment of the Passover in Jesus, The New Covenant, and communion with God through the High Priesthood of Jesus, The Lamb of God, given to us! Eucharist!!

These are just some suggestions to Catholics of things to talk about with Amazing Facts eveangelists, or any SDA…and to SDAs to prayerfully study. Don’t take my word for it because I have no authority to speak. I only speak of that which I have witnessed. Jesus established the authority on these matters for His Church through establishing the Church on the teachings of the apostles to the bishops to the world, through the organization of His Church. And for the teachings of the aposoles to make it through 2000 years is nothing short of a miralce. Organized religion is much better than chaotic religion…and Jesus put the organization in place and gave His Church the authority to bind and loose upon this earth until He returns in the clouds of glory to claim His own…those He purchased. May God bless evernone who read this with His love to study, understand, and be of one mind…One Body!! Amen!

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Patrick

All I can say is ``Wow!’’

You are serious about your faith, and God bless you for that. Will give you a very short answer over the weekend when I have been refreshed by a lovely Sabbath’s rest!

God bless

Friedrich

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friedrich,

It was so good to hear from you! I believe that you and I (as millions of others) are serious about our faith…and that is good. What I have been searching for over these past 30 years is Jesus and the grace to completely surrender my will to Him, and allow him to lead me into the fullest saving relationship with Him reaching its completeness in eternity.

I am a sinner. This has not been the easiest journey for me because of my willingness, in the past, to cling to sin which has kept me from from the full and complete communion with Him for many years. And please understand that when I say clinging to sin I am NOT talking about dogmas nor doctrinal issues.

The most difficult thing for me was to admit that I was wrong in my reading of some scriptures, when seeing for the first time that my preconceived ideas and beliefs of the interpretation were incorrect. It was humiliating (which is a good thing if we are talking about learning humility), and it was embarassing (and I don’t think that is a good thing because that indicates pride, and a type of self exhaltation I suppose, both of which I had plenty of). To go back to people I’ve been debating with for the past 25 years (some whom I had very little respect for), and say…“you know, I believe you were right and I was wrong”…well, that is a difficult thing for me. But God is good and His mercy endures forever, and He who begins a good work in us sees it through to completion…Praise God!!! The most important thing I’ve learned on my journey is to pray for the Holy Spirit to lead and guide…trust that He will…and study, study study!!

I have such a close affinity with SDAs, because for the majority of my Christian life, they were the people I worshiped with, prayed with, worked with, ate with, laughed with, cried with, lived life with. I still consider them my family and hope they will always consider me theirs. My bonds of affection for SDAs cannot be broken.

Friedrich, I love you, and I don’t even know who you are…because I share a special bond of faith with you which is unique. May we always dialogue and communicate in the Spirit of Love which is Jesus Christ, the Way, the Light, the Truth!

I look forward to hearing from you! You have a very blessed Sabbath!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear MercyGate and fbl9

Thank you once again for your positive, friendly replies. I didn’t want us to get side-tracked – the original problem was about whether the Bible is 100% trustworthy or not.
You both were concerned about me mentioning grape juice. Do yourself a favour and ask any Jew (that is what Jesus was) wether they were allowed (in Jesus’ time) to use alcoholic beverages at weddings, in the company of females and children. The answer is a resounding NO! They had pretty effective ways of preserving grape juice in a pure state in those days (see research done by a Vatican scholar, Dr Samuele Bacchiocci, on this subject).
So – imagine Jesus’ first miracle on earth = giving his disciples and friends booze at a wedding to make them drunk (this was not allowed in Jewish culture), or during the last supper, to get them sozzled – this booze' represented Jesus' pure blood! Same with the bread -- it had to be yeast free, symbolizing Jesus' sinless life/body. Even on the cross, Jesus refused the stupifying potion of vinegar and drugs they offered him to deaden his pain. Why? To keep His mind clear in order to stay sinless and defeat Satan. Would Christ not do the same for His followers during Communion? Sadly, there are many examples of clergymen who have become alcoholics because of their use of too much of the communion wine... Alcohol does not fit into the symbolism used for Christ! Rather try a spotless lamb, bread without yeast, and wine’ without alcohol… That is consistent with the rest of Scripture.

God bless

Friedrich

Hi everyone! Just a couple more points to ponder regarding the quote above.

1. Did Jesus drink wine, fermented beverages? Below, Jesus is addressing the crowd regarding John the Baptist.

Matt. 11:18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Jeses says he came eating and drinking, and was accused of being a drunkard. How could the possibility of being accused of being a drunkard for drinking occur if the drink being drunk was unfermented, rather than fermented wine? This does not make Jesus a drunkard.

1. Was fermented wine used in communion in the early church? Below Paul is amonishing the Corinthians for their bad behavior when they met to celebrate the Lord’s Supper. They were eating the communion bread and drinking the communion wine…and getting drunk for doing so. That would be difficult if the wine was unfermented. More importantly notice what happened to some who received the Body and Blood of Christ unworthily…weak, sick, and some fell asleep. SDAs know what falling asleep means, and this is not because they were tired…this follows weakness, and sickness…it is most likely death that Paul is talking about. This is important to understand. While we may not die right now from receiving Jesus’ body, blood, Spirit, and divinity unworthily, death is the ultimate end. Remember what Jesus said in John 6…53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whether today, tommorow, or in eternity…separation from God is death…communion with Jesus is life eternal. God bless all who seek Jesus with all their heart and soul and mind!!

1 Corinthians 11:17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! 23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world. 33So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Here are a couple more amazing facts to consider and study further.

Please let me know the texts in the NT where Jesus commands his followers to “remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy”. In looking at what he commands his followers to do, the fourth commandment of the decalogue is noticebly absent, even though Jesus kept the sabbath. The other commandments are not noticebly absent. As a former SDA in the process of joining the Catholic Church, this was perhaps my major obstacle in need of resolution. I have done concordance searches on “seventh day” and “sabbath” in the NT, and it is always interesting to read Jesus’ comments regarding the sabbath to those accusing him of breaking it.

There is no question, at least in my mind, that the fouth commandment was the sign between God and his chosen people, those led out of Egypt. The sign constantly revealing and teaching and reminding his people that he was their God, the Creator, and they were his people, the created and saved. He commands them to REMEMBER, which is neccessary for many reasons, not the least of which is for a successful covenant (keeping in mind your part of the deal).

In the NT I did a concordance search for “remember” and only in one situation did I find Jesus “commanding” his followers to remember, and that was at the last supper when preparing to fulfill the promises and convenants leading up to his act of salvation for mankind on the cross. In the Lord’s Supper he instituted the new “sign” of his new covenant with those he leads out of the bondage of sin and death and into the promised land of eternal life in communion with God (in the Lord’s Supper we receive Jesus’ body, blood, soul, and divinity into our bodies; Jesus receives our bodies into His Body, and all believers become One Body…the church with Jesus as the head). This new covenant is between Jesus, God the Son, who is God the Creator, and the people he creates, re-creates, and saves…not just Jews, but Gentiles, and all who accept the gift of Jesus’ sacrificial offering, and become heirs to the promise (Galatians 3:26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise). The resurrection was the most momentous event in all of human history, the event which makes our salvation possible, certain, sure, and guaranteed! To celebrate that day seems unavoidable for those who believe and enter into the new covenant. Yet Sunday is not the sign of the New Covenant, as the Sabbath was for the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant:

Hebrews 8:6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

The Sign of The New Covenant:

He said in Matthew 26:26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Luke 22:19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

God bless all

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Patrick

Once again, thank you for going to so much trouble to prove that

1. The communion bread and wine is Christ’s real body and blood,
2. The Biblical Sabbath is not Saturday, but Sunday

Regarding the communion bread and wine–
I am a language teacher, and at the risk of boring you, need to remind us of 2 basic figures of speach.
a. Simile/comparison: Jimmy, you stink LIKE a skunk! – Jimmy shares the characteristic of a foul smell with a skunk
b. Metaphor: Jimmy, you (ARE a) skunk! –Jimmy does not have black/white fur, a curved tail and anal gland that emits foul odours, but he shares many characteristics of a skunk! This is to emphasize the point!

Jesus uses METAPHORS to emphasize His words: I AM the door, the Good Shepherd, the Light, the Way… This bread IS my body, This wine IS my blood, this cup IS the new testament.

o When you take a metaphor and turn it into reality, the results are weird! Is Jesus a wooden door, a smelly shepherd , a light/lamp? Is the bread Jesus’ real flesh? Is the wine Jesus’ real blood? Is the communion cup Jesus’ real testament?
o If you insist on making metaphors facts, then be consistent throughout scripture… but better still, read the Bible with intelligent consistency, and avoid weird conclusions.

Regarding the Biblical Sabbath–
Read your Bible from cover to cover – there are
o HUNDREDS of direct references to the Biblical Sabbath of the Ten Commandments on Saturday
o a few direct references to Biblical CEREMONIAL Sabbaths that fell on any day of the week, but on a specific date (Like Christmas falls on a different day every year). These ceremonial Sabbaths were part of the ceremonial law that was a series of acted parables – all pointing to Jesus’ dealing with sin through His death on the cross, and his work as high priest (Hebrews) in heaven as our mediator. When Jesus died on the cross, the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom by an unseen (angelic) hand (Mat 27:51), to symbolize that the sacrificial/ceremonial system had found its fulfilment in Jesus’ death on the cross when He cried out: ``It is finished!’’ (John 19:30)!

o There are ZERO direct or indirect references to Sunday as the Biblical Sabbath/Day of the Lord in the Bible!

o Even the term `Day of the Lord’ in the Bible does not refer to Sunday, but usually to the JUDGMENT Day For behold the day is coming, Burning like an oven... the dreadful DAY OF THE LORD...’’ Malachi 4:1,5. Wail, for the DAY OF THE LORD is near; as destruction from the Lord it will come!’’ Is 13:6,9
o In the New Testament there are many references to Jews wanting to persecute/kill Christians for NOT being circumcised; for Not treating non-Jews like animals; for NOT following Jewish ceremonial customs… yet there is NOT ONE REFERENCE TO A JEW WANTING TO KILL/PERSECUTE THE CHRISTIANS FOR CHANGING THE SABBATH TO SUNDAY – BECAUSE IT WAS NOT AN ISSUE – EVERYBODY WAS KEEPING SATURDAY AS THE SABBATH!

Conclusion:
The Ceremonial Sabbaths have vanished, but
The Biblical Sabbath = Saturday!

If you don’t believe me, then BELIEVE YOUR OWN CHURCH LEADERS!
Just Google what your church says:

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
“But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”
Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”
John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1936), vol. 1, P. 51.
“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.”
Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.
"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
"Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.’
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.
"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!
“Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons”

In conclusion – don’t you find it ironical that
a. so many people take ordinary bread and wine, set aside by man for holy use in Communion, and try to upgrade it into something mystical, the literal body and blood of Christ, while
b. so many people take a mystical Day, set aside by God to remember for holy use each Saturday, and try to downgrade it into something ordinary, a common day of work!

God bless,
Friedrich

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Patrick

Once again, thank you for going to so much trouble to prove that

1. The communion bread and wine is Christ’s real body and blood,

Dear Friedrich,
I am glad to hear from you! And it was no trouble at all trying to prove that the communion bread and wine become Christ’s real body and blood. Yet it is evident that I did not do a very good job That is why I recommended that you read “The Hidden Manna: A Theology of the Eucharist” by Father James O’Conner. He is, without a doubt, much brighter at explaining this than I am.

1. The Biblical Sabbath is not Saturday, but Sunday

I never tried to prove that the Biblical Sabbath is Sunday not Saturday. In fact, in this quote from a previous post of mine in this tread, I thought I had clearly made the point, from scripture and the traditions of the Jewish religion, that Saturday was the Sabbath from the time of the wanderings in the wilderness until the present time in which we live**…“And we can even say the the 7th day Sabbath from that point on was an actual 24 hour period, and I believe we can even be safe to say that it is the same day we now call Saturday. Why? Because the traditions of the Jewish people have been preserved to this present time.”** Again it would appear that I failed in communicating that point effectively to you. And so that we don’t go over this same road again, let me assure you that I believe Saturday is the Biblical Sabbath, not Sunday.

So at this point in time, it appears that only item number 1 above is still an outstanding issue for us.

Regarding the communion bread and wine–
I am a language teacher, and at the risk of boring you, need to remind us of 2 basic figures of speach.
a. Simile/comparison: Jimmy, you stink LIKE a skunk! – Jimmy shares the characteristic of a foul smell with a skunk
b. Metaphor: Jimmy, you (ARE a) skunk! –Jimmy does not have black/white fur, a curved tail and anal gland that emits foul odours, but he shares many characteristics of a skunk! This is to emphasize the point!

Jesus uses METAPHORS to emphasize His words: I AM the door, the Good Shepherd, the Light, the Way… This bread IS my body, This wine IS my blood, this cup IS the new testament.

o When you take a metaphor and turn it into reality, the results are weird! Is Jesus a wooden door, a smelly shepherd , a light/lamp? Is the bread Jesus’ real flesh? Is the wine Jesus’ real blood? Is the communion cup Jesus’ real testament?
o If you insist on making metaphors facts, then be consistent throughout scripture… but better still, read the Bible with intelligent consistency, and avoid weird conclusions.

You are not boring me…in fact I am thoroughly enjoying talking with you! We have something else in common here…language…you are a language teacher, and I have been known at times to be a language butcher…but I’m happy to say that I’m a recovering language butcher I am familiar with similes and metaphors, and I agree with your examples of each in your reminder above. So I believe we are in sync as we move on. I will adress each of your questions above:

See Q&A (con’t) 2

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Q&A (con’t) 2

1. ***Is Jesus a wooden door?/**I] Now I do have to agree with you on this, that if you turn a metaphor into reality the results would be very weird indeed (and I’m sitting here thinking about what it would look like if I actually turned into some of the things I’ve been called So in answering your questions, I am wondering if you are assuming that all doors are made of wood? A door can be made of many different types of materials. Jesus never said that He was a wooden door (or at least if He did, I have never read that in the Bible). So I would have to answer you that, no, Jesus is not a wooden door…I think it is safe to say that we are both in agreement on that issue. So the next question that logically comes up, since you reminded me about similes and metaphors is, what kind of a door is Jesus trying to tell us he is? Because if I am understanding you correctly (and I may not be, so please clarify) you said above that Jesus used metaphors to emphasize his words “I AM the door”. Friedrich, I’ve read the Bible, all of it, through a couple of times, and one thing I have learned through each reading of it, it that I miss a lot of stuff in there. I cannot for the life of me find anywhere in the Bible, where Jesus said “I AM the door” as you pointed out to me. So please direct me to that scripture. The closest I could find was Revelation 3:20 (New International Version)20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. He is standing at the door and knocking, ready to come in and EAT with whoever opens the door. But this is the book of Revelation, how can Jesus eat with whoever opens the door when He knocks, since He is in Heaven now seated at the right hand of God the Father? whoops, sorry, that is still an outstanding issue with us. So please just send me the scripture that I missed where He said “I AM the door”
2. Is Jesus a …, a smelly shepherd? Again, I have missed the scripture where Jesus uses the metaphor of a smelly shepard to describe himself. If you have that verse, or verses, please send them to me. In John10:11&14, Jesus calls Himself the “Good Shepard”; and in John 10:16 he refers to himself as the “one shepard”. In 1 Peter 5:4, Peter refers to Jesus as the “Chief Shepard”…but that is Peter talking (even thought it is in the Bible), not Jesus. So let’s go back to what Jesus said and your question. Is Jesus a smelly shepherd? Until you provide the verse where he said that, I will have to say, No his is not. Now I ask you…and I will answer my question first…is Jesus the good shepherd? I says without hesitation YES YES YES, literally, figuratively, and for real in my life!!! What say you?

You advised me above "If you insist on making metaphors facts, then be consistent throughout scripture… but better still, read the Bible with intelligent consistency, and avoid weird conclusions" And I will admit that Jesus being a wooden door and a smelly shepherd are indeed weird conclusions. Yet they are not, nor have they ever been my conclusions. You are the one who concluded that, based on making metaphors reality, and asked me if I agreed with you. I have not insisted on making metaphors realities. And in all fairness, I do understand the point you are making about metaphor and fact, and I do not really believe that you think Jesus is a wooden door or a smelly shepherd. But if you admonish that I "read the Bible with intelligent consistency, and avoid weird conclusions",, then I would ask that you do so as well. You insisted that Jesus refused the “stupifying potion” on the cross, and yet reading the scripture revealed otherwise…I would still love to hear your thoughts regarding that. You said above that Jesus said “I AM the door”, and yet no where in the Bible can I find that. So then, how shall we proceed? Let’s use the scriptures, read them accurately without skipping or bypassing words, or even making up words and asserting that Jesus said them when they aren’t even in the Bible…are we in agreement on this? And always, we should pray and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to illuminate our minds with His Truth!!! Which takes me to your next question.

See Q&A (con’t 3)*

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Q&A (con’t) 3

3. Is Jesus…, a light/lamp? Let’s deal with lamp first. I could not find anywhere in the NT where Jesus said he was a lamp, the lamp, or some lamp. The only verse I could find regarding him as a lamp was Revelation 21:23 (New International Version)23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. I think we both agree that Jesus is the Lamb, yet here it is John referring to the Lamb as the lamp of heaven. Jesus referred to John the Baptist as a lamp in John 5:35 (New International Version)35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. a metaphor to say that John burned (do the SDAs still use the prase "he/she/ is, I am on fire for the Lord?), and gave light…illunination. I think as far as lamp goes we both agree this is metaphor. But I could not find anywhere that Jesus said he was a lamp. If you have that verse please send it to me.

Let’s look at light. There are way too many verses to put in here, but early on Jesus was teaching and he told those he was teaching that they were the light of the world…Matthew 5:14,16…METAPHOR In Matthew 17 at the transfiguration it says that his clothes became white as light…yet this only refers to his clothes and not to Him. In Luke2:32, when Jesus was 8 days old and presented at the temple, Simeon refers to Jesus as a light for revelation to the Gentiles…METAPHOR Read John chapters 1,3,5,8,9, 11, and twelve for more references to light…METAPHORs, unless I missed something, so if anyone finds anything contrary please let me know. John 1:4 (New International Version)4In him was life, and that life was the light of men…here it states the it is the life in Jesus which is the light of men…METAPHOR, light of men is the life of Jesus.

Acts 26: (New International Version)12"On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15"Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ " ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. REALITY…at least to Paul and his companions…yet Jesus is not saying here that he is light…he just is light…perhaps the reality of his previous metaphors.

1. Is the bread Jesus’ real flesh? Oh most certainly YES, after Jesus blesses it and performs the miracle which allows us to eat his flesh!!! see John 6 and the accounts of the last supper.
2. *** Is the wine Jesus’ real blood?*** Oh most certainly YES, after Jesus blesses it and performs the miracle which allows us to drink his blood!!! see John 6 and the accounts of the last supper. Remember, he changed water into wine (whether fermented or unfermented) He is God, only He can make his presence real in the symbols…thank God!
3. *** Is the communion cup Jesus’ real testament?*** Oh most certainly NOT!!! It is the BLOOD of Jesus shed for the sins of the world that is the real testament…the wine (whether fermented or unferrmented) in the cup, and the cup, are symbols of the real testament…the real covenant. 17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes.” 19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

See Q&A (con’t) 4

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Q&A (con’t) 4

Regarding the Biblical Sabbath–
Read your Bible from cover to cover – there are
o HUNDREDS of direct references to the Biblical Sabbath of the Ten Commandments on Saturday
o a few direct references to Biblical CEREMONIAL Sabbaths that fell on any day of the week, but on a specific date (Like Christmas falls on a different day every year). These ceremonial Sabbaths were part of the ceremonial law that was a series of acted parables – all pointing to Jesus’ dealing with sin through His death on the cross, and his work as high priest (Hebrews) in heaven as our mediator. When Jesus died on the cross, the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom by an unseen (angelic) hand (Mat 27:51), to symbolize that the sacrificial/ceremonial system had found its fulfilment in Jesus’ death on the cross when He cried out: ``It is finished!’’ (John 19:30)!

As I said before, I have read the Bible cover to cover a couple times, but may not have picked up everything. However, I have studied what you point out above, and except for vague estimates of “hundreds of direct references” and your analogy (and knowing that you are a language teacher I will not provide examples of analogies about Christmas. I agree with you:thumbsup:

o There are ZERO direct or indirect references to Sunday as the Biblical Sabbath/Day of the Lord in the Bible!

Yes, I agree with the following caveat. While there are no direct or indirect references to Sunday as the Biblical Sabbath Day, there is scriptural evidence of the Church doing things on the first day of the week…of which, I believe there are 9 verses…but you can correct that number if I’m wrong. The Catholic Church does not teach that Saturday is not the Sabbath. In fact, except for SDAs they are one of the few churches, if not the only ohter one, who says that Saturday is the Sabbath. I am in 100% agreement with you regarding NO references to Sunday as the Day of the Lord. I agree with you that the phrase “Day of the Lord” is referring to the Judgement Day, but I may be wrong and I’m open to correction. Where I believe you are confused is making the association between the Day of the Lord (i.e., Judgement Day), which is not Sunday…and…the Lord’s Day, on which John was in the spirit in revelation, which is Sunday. The Day of the Lord and The Lord’s Day are two different and distinct entities. And this can be verified by the writings of the early church leaders, and that is fascinating studying. I would suggest the writhings of John Chrysostom. When I had the same questions and issues that you are posing, I found his writings…and guess what…our questions and issues are not new, they didn’t begin at the Reformation, but were the questions that reasonable people have had from the beginnng of the Church and which the ministry of the apostles from the beginning in their writings and councils and synods resolved as the Church of Jesus Christ. I suggest that you google “early church fathers and doctors” and search for their writings on these subjects…the internet is wonderful! You will read from the leaders who were there, the reasoning for the development of Christian doctrine and theology.

See Q&A (con’t) 5

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Q&A (con’t) 5

Conclusion:
The Ceremonial Sabbaths have vanished, but
The Biblical Sabbath = Saturday!

If you don’t believe me, then BELIEVE YOUR OWN CHURCH LEADERS!
Just Google what your church says:

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
“But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”
Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”
John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1936), vol. 1, P. 51.
“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.”
Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.
"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
"Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.’
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.
"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!
“Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons”

It was interesting to see these quotes again. They were included in the back of the first Bible I ever bought. Did you actually google them or did you have them in one pamphlet as I used to? Back in my day (and how old do I sound saying that? it was in an Appendix in my Bible called Richards Helps…after H.M.S. Richards Sr. who put the helps together. I had the honor to escort him and his wife around CUC when he came to speak at an alumni weekend. He and his wife were delightful, loving Christians, and he was a great preacher. He was gracious enough to sign my Bible when I asked him when my services to him that weekend were completed…he wrote a reference to 1 John 2:2, which has been the conerstone and foundation of my faith. But I digress.

I was a bit surprised that you chose this path to go down at this point. I was trying to keep our dialouge focused on scripture alone, but if you are comfortable to look at the writings of Catholic Church leaders and scholars, then I am more than excited to journey along with you on this path. You said “If you don’t believe me, then BELIEVE YOUR OWN CHURCH LEADERS!
Just Google what your church says:” Am I to correctly assume that YOU believe my church leaders and that is the reason you quoted them? I would suggest that you read all of those documents in context, if you did indeed google those documents. You may even be able to find discussions right on this site if you do a search here on those documents. If you really do want to show me what my church leaders say about the Sabbath and Sunday, I ask only that you go to the Catechism of The Catholic Church and research these issues. Not that your references above are incorrect or unworthy, but in the Catechism you you find the official teaching of the Catholic Church. After that we are going to have a blast studying the early writings of the Church fathers, and scholars throughout history!!! I am so glad you brought this up, because I am so inept at explaing these things. Men (the apostles and those they instructed to teach the faith), led by the Holy Spirit, entrusted to the Chruch by Jesus before the Ascenstion are much more brilliant at explaining these things than I am…not that it hasn’t helped me to study in order to answer your questions…I’m just slower than most.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

In conclusion – don’t you find it ironical that
a. so many people take ordinary bread and wine, set aside by man for holy use in Communion, and try to upgrade it into something mystical, the literal body and blood of Christ, while
b. so many people take a mystical Day, set aside by God to remember for holy use each Saturday, and try to downgrade it into something ordinary, a common day of work!

God bless,
Friedrich

If so many people could take ordinary bread and wine, set aside by man for holy use in Communion, and try to upgrade it into something mystical, the literal body and blood of Christ, no, I would not find that ironic, I would find that MORONIC. Make no mistake about it, NO MAN can upgrade the bread and wine (whether fermented or unfermented) But when a servant of Jesus, an ordained priest, following in the apostolic tradition set in place 2000 years ago by Jesus, and maintained to our time 2000 years later by men still ordained in the same tradition, present the bread and wine to God as Jesus ministers as our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and as he instructed them to do at the Last Supper…that bread and wine are not upgraded by magic, they are transformed by the words of Jesus Christ, The Word, into the flesh and blood of Himself, His sacrifice, our salvation, so that we may eat his flesh and drink his blood and have life as he taught his disciples in John 6. And when we receive him and his life, and become one body of believers with Jesus as our head…that is life eternal Ironic?..No. Mystical?..Yes. Miracle?..Yes A hard teaching?..evidently.

Do I find it ironic that so many people take a mystical Day, set aside by God to remember for holy use each Saturday, and try to downgrade it into something ordinary, a common day of work! Yes, Yes, Yes I did. The Eucharist was the easiest thing for me to understand and believe. The Sabbath not being the seal of God in the ends times was the most difficult thing for me to believe. I thought, ok, if the day of worship is being changed from Sabbath to Sunday, and if Jesus condemned those who placed burdens on the people in regards to Sabbath keeping, then how could the Church transfer those same requirements for Sabbath to Sunday…and guess what? You and I aren’t the first people to have those questions. They popped up real quick in the early chruch, and the writings of John Chrysostom in that time period, along with other church leaders, addressed that. And those burdens of the Sabbath were not to be placed on the Christian church.

So much I know, but I am glad that you wrote back!!! As for the two points you raise above here, google the early church fathers and these topics…look at the dates of the writings, so early on, and see how the Church was being led and established by God. Reading the church fathers on these topics did not convince me immediately…but I prayed for guidance like I have never prayed in my life…because I know you will understand what I mean when I say that I did not want to be one of the very elect deceived.

Thank you Friedrich!! I love you my brother!
God bless you, and if you get this today, have a blessed Sabbath!
Patrick

 

[MarysRoses]

If you don’t believe me, then BELIEVE YOUR OWN CHURCH LEADERS!
Just Google what your church says:

(one quote deleted so the post would fit)

"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”

John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1936), vol. 1, P. 51.
“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.”
Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.
"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
"Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.’

James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.
"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!
“Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons”

Just a few words to put these quotes into context. I am a former SDA so I’m very familiar with them. (As an aside to Patrick Murebil … I have HMS Richards’ autograph in my bible too! The verse he gave me was Romans 10:9)

Adventists read these through Adventist glasses and see validation and corroboration of their theories that the sabbath was ‘changed’ after the time of the apostles by the “Catholic Church” which they do not believe existed before the time of Constantine. (Details on this may vary, as their own Adventist scholars have had to admit to an enormous amount of evidence contradictory to their version of history found in books such as “The Great Controversy”.)

Context is important. If you notice the dates on these, they coincide with the period of the mid 19th century to the early 20th for the most part. This is when there was a great deal of revivalist movements among protestants (this is when Adventism and many other uniquely American denominations arose remember) and it was a time with a large number of Catholic immigrants fitting into American life. There was also at this time among protestants, a movement of Sunday Sabbatarians.

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/514969/Sabbatarianism

Protestants were actively embracing the biblical admonitions regarding sabbath keeping and applying them to Sunday. In Adventist literature such as “Ten Commandments Twice Removed” you will find many quotes from famous protestant preachers of this time, apparently praising and upholding the sabbath. If you look at the context of those quotes, the protestant preachers are talking about SUNDAY, something that book ignores. My point in bringing this up is historical context. Sabbatarianism (protestant) was a popular movement and the background against which these quotes were originally placed. Catholic immigrants to the United States at this time were often entirely unfamiliar with protestantism. Many of these quotes were set against this context and intended to point out to Catholic people that protestants may say “bible only” yet they also have their traditions and extra-biblical teachings. (Even sabbath keeping Adventists have them, but thats not the topic at hand).

So, these quotes were mostly in response to the times.

The next thing to consider, is that words used in these quotes mean something VERY different to a Catholic than to an Adventist.

The Adventist reads “The Church changed…” and sees a validation of their idea that an organization which did not exist until after the time of the apostles has tampered with Christianity. A Catholic reads “The Church changed…” and understands the “Church” mentioned in these quotes refers to the Church founded by Christ himself, which has continuously existed since the very first Pentecost when the Holy Spirit anointed the Apostles with fire.

Even the word ‘sabbath’ has two meanings. A generic meaning consistent with the Hebrew - to cease or rest. Sunday is a sabbath in the sense of being a rest day. Professors take “sabbatical” leave and no one thinks they are trying to change a commandment! The other meaning is as a specific day, the Sabbath in the sense of the biblical Sabbath, which would be Saturday on our calendar. Adventists typically do not recognize the first use. This first use however, is the use intended when Alexander Campbell and other 19th century protestant sabbatarians praised the ‘sabbath’ in talking about Sunday.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church clarifies the issue. The Sabbath is Saturday. Sunday is not this sabbath on another day. However, the Church does see a moral principle in the Sabbath commandment that there should be time set aside for rest and worship. These principles are transferred to Sunday. This is different than saying the Church “changed” the commandment or “changed” the sabbath. Adventists want to see a defiance of God’s law in the observance of Sunday. Nothing is further from the truth. Sunday is its own day

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Just a few words to put these quotes into context.

Thank you for the clarification and the link! I must confess that I used to have all those quotes in the back of my Bible when I went and gave Bible studies…and like many other things…I never read the documents, nor did I have a true understanding of the context…and that makes a big difference. So I thank you for teaching me something today!

God bless!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thanks all for your responses. I didn’t know SDA’s were so anti-Catholic, I’m not so sure now that I want to engage the gentleman in discussion when he returns, though I’m surely on their radar now…
I’ll do a bit of research and see what I can gather - I think I’ll just try to hand him some material, in the spirit of reciprocation of the material he gave me.

**They will not take your literature, they are trained not too. They will try and convince of Saturday being the Sabbath. You should visit on page 3 of this forum thread titled "why is Sunday instead of Saturday the Sabbath? They are huge on this topic, this is their claim of fame in their christian theology, next to trying to discredit Catholicism and making false claims about her teachings.

I highly recommend you review before your visit with them. You will find their argument about the Catholic church “changing the sabbath” is not true at the end of the posts.

Before accepting any of their accusations about the Catholic church, that may put you in doubt, please check with the catechism or other catholic resources before accepting their accusations.

Pay attention to how much time they spend on trying to justify their theology and fighting to disprove your belief’s, rather than sharing God’s love and mercy. I give them a lot of credit as far as arguing a point. They are well skilled in this field. Their reasoning and logic, deals with alot of carnal knowledge instead of the Spirit. In short; they argue like good Lawyers, both prosecuting and defense lawyering. This is their “Eucharist” to be able to prove and argue their beliefs, twisting scripture.

these are just my past personal experiences with SDA.

Peace be with you**

 

[Protestant101]

**They will not take your literature, they are trained not too. **Peace be with you

You make many ridiculous accusations about those who you do not agree with; but this one is at the top of the list.

Where did you get this from? Can you prove that we are “trained not to do this?”

Your sick attempts to cloud over what the average Adventist is really like, and what we do believe is nothing short of theological bullying and lies. There is no “peace” involved in your disgusting posts. Only “piece,” s.

 

[Protestant101]

Adventists read these through Adventist glasses and see validation and corroboration of their theories that the sabbath was ‘changed’ after the time of the apostles by the “Catholic Church” which they do not believe existed before the time of Constantine. (Details on this may vary, as their own Adventist scholars have had to admit to an enormous amount of evidence contradictory to their version of history found in books such as “The Great Controversy”.)

Which Adventists have admitted to what “evidence?”

While you pride yourself in being “familiar” with Adventists; you have simply switched from “Adventist eyes,” to Catholic eyes. Your “knowledge of Adventists” is really just existential dogma; it really proves nothing, except that you are just as anti-Adventist, as you say Adventists are “anti-Catholic.”

Also; where do Adventists officially teach that the Catholic Church did not exist before the time of Constantine?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Which Adventists have admitted to what “evidence?”

While you pride yourself in being “familiar” with Adventists; you have simply switched from “Adventist eyes,” to Catholic eyes. Your “knowledge of Adventists” is really just existential dogma; it really proves nothing, except that you are just as anti-Adventist, as you say Adventists are “anti-Catholic.”

Also; where do Adventists officially teach that the Catholic Church did not exist before the time of Constantine?

Dear Protestant101

Please go back to the beginning of this thread and read all of it. I know there is a lot, but you will at least see how familiar I am with Adventists.

Thank you!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friedrich,

I addressed all of your questions in your response above. I ask only at this point in time that you or any other SDA on this thread now address my questions which have been interspersed throughout my posts, and which I will consolidate here. At least give me that respect. And please do this before this thread goes any further with the back and forth. I have been trying to dialogue and answer questions directed to me and would really really like that reciprocation! Thank you!

1. Why is there no “evening and morning” designation for the 7th day of creation in Genesis 2:1-2?
2. Why did Jesus receive the wine vinegar on the cross? John 19:28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
3. Where in the New Testament does Jesus teach or preach about the Sabbath, as he does about other parts of the 10 commandments (such as His teachings in Matthew Chapters 5,6,7)? If you can provide the scpripture references so I can look them up and study them, that would be greatly appreciated. It seems to me that if keeping the 7th day sabbath (saturday) is so important to The Church of Jesus, especially at the end of time, Jesus would have spent more time preaching and teaching about its importance. Yet I have done concordance searches on both “sabbath” and “seventh” in the New Testament, and other than Jesus constantly being followed, watched, and accused of breaking the sabbath, I cannot find Jesus teachings regarding it, other than it is right to good. So please direct me to **Jesus’ **teachings on the matter.

Please try to keep the answers scriptural with text citations.

Whether or not these three questions are addressed will show me quite a bit about your actual willingness to communicate. It will also reveal to all who read this post whether or not SDAs are willing to dialogue, or if the accusations are true that they merely want to convert people to their way of thinking.

And if these three questions above are ignored, or are answered in round about ways not related to the questions, then I will have to politely excuse myself from this thread.

These questions of mine are honest and sincere, I ask that your answers be as well. I look forward to your answers!

In Christian love,
Patrick Murebil