Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Gabriel_of_12]

You make many ridiculous accusations about those who you do not agree with; but this one is at the top of the list.

Where did you get this from? Can you prove that we are “trained not to do this?”

Your sick attempts to cloud over what the average Adventist is really like, and what we do believe is nothing short of theological bullying and lies. There is no “peace” involved in your disgusting posts. Only “piece,” s.

This is common of a SDA response taking things out of context, to fit what they believe to be true. For example, I was speaking about my experience, in crossing paths with SDA’s, who were willing to give me literature, but refused mine, not once everytime, and with the same response. What is interesting here protestant101, out of all the points I made of my personal contact with SDA’s, you manage to pick on the one point I made by personal experience that really does not have much value compared to the other points I made about SDA’s. Does this mean all the other points are correct. Or are you making a fuss, so as to deny the truth from my other points?

good knowing your sticking around, Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Which Adventists have admitted to what “evidence?”

While you pride yourself in being “familiar” with Adventists; you have simply switched from “Adventist eyes,” to Catholic eyes. Your “knowledge of Adventists” is really just existential dogma; it really proves nothing, except that you are just as anti-Adventist, as you say Adventists are “anti-Catholic.”

Also; where do Adventists officially teach that the Catholic Church did not exist before the time of Constantine?

You know Protestant101, Marysroses makes good points, and I tend to agree with her. I have heard SDA’s teach this stuff as she explained in her above posts. I second her witness to these. As far as official teachings that the Catholic church did not exist before the time of Constantine by SDA I couldnt tell you, but what I have heard them preach, Yes they do and have taught this false teaching.

Instead of making insults protestant 101, why dont you inform us of the official teachings, when you disagree. For one does your faith believe that the Roman Catholilc church existed before Constantine? this is a fair yes and no question to SDA’s. I am afraid how you would answer because, I have alot to share with you if say “Yes”.

 

[Protestant101]

This is common of a SDA response taking things out of context, to fit what they believe to be true. For example, I was speaking about my experience, in crossing paths with SDA’s, who were willing to give me literature, but refused mine, not once everytime, and with the same response. What is interesting here protestant101, out of all the points I made of my personal contact with SDA’s, you manage to pick on the one point I made by personal experience that really does not have much value compared to the other points I made about SDA’s. Does this mean all the other points are correct. Or are you making a fuss, so as to deny the truth from my other points?

good knowing your sticking around, Peace be with you

My only point was/is that you cannot characterize the whole group based on a few that you locked horns with. I mean; how much stuff do I read from you guys!! Get real is all I was saying. :tsktsk:

 

[Protestant101]

You know Protestant101, Marysroses makes good points, and I tend to agree with her. I have heard SDA’s teach this stuff as she explained in her above posts. I second her witness to these. As far as official teachings that the Catholic church did not exist before the time of Constantine by SDA I couldnt tell you, but what I have heard them preach, Yes they do and have taught this false teaching.

Instead of making insults protestant 101, why dont you inform us of the official teachings, when you disagree. For one does your faith believe that the Roman Catholilc church existed before Constantine? this is a fair yes and no question to SDA’s. I am afraid how you would answer because, I have alot to share with you if say “Yes”.

You will see some variations on what people know and teach re Constantine, and what he did or did not do; (not official teachings though) but one thing you will not see is that Adventists do not officially teach that the Catholic Church did not exist before Constantine, which I believe was somewhere in the 300 BC area? If you heard someone say different, then thats fine; but you will not be able to find this in the official teachings. You know where their web site is as well as I do. Show us where it is an official teaching.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Patrick

Sorry about some of the people getting up tight. Let met touch on some of your questions, hopefully we can both benefit by this discussion.
In our discussion on COMMUNION:
Door – I am the door of the sheep"" -- John 10:7 Shepherd -- I am the good shepherd’’ – John 10:14
Light – ``I am the light of the world’’ – John 8:12
I still find it inconsistent that you emphatically say YES, BREAD=CHRIST’S LITERAL BODY’, YES, WINE=CHRIST’S LITERAL BLOOD, but NO – cup IS NOT Christ’s literal new testament (only symbolic?)…These 3 metaphoric phrases occur in the same passage, yet you say 2 are literal, and 1 is symbolical…rather make ALL the same!

For the CURRENT DISCUSSION

1. Why is there no evening and morning' designation for the 7th day of creation in Genesis 2? Only God knows! Perhaps it is to show He was ``changing gears'' from active work, to resting in a job well done? There are 6 days of work, specifically spelt out evening and morning’, but then we read: ``Thus the heavens and the earth and all the host of them were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work… Then God BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY and SANCTIFIED IT…’’ Does God need to be more specific than that?
2. Re. the `painkiller’/vinegar on the cross:
   Then they gave Him wine mingled with myrrh to drink, but HE DID NOT TAKE IT.'' Mark 15:23 --the 3rd hour Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink… and Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.’’ Mark 15:36,37
   Obviously Jesus refused any drug that could becloud His mind in the great battle for our salvation – 1 slip of a dulled/intoxicated mind could have caused our eternal death!
   Three hours later, the battle was over, and in His last moment he allowed a few drops of ``sour wine’’/vinegar to moisten his lips as He died.
3. Regarding Jesus’ teaching on the Sabbath in the NT:
   You state that Jesus mentions `other parts of the 10 commandments’’ in Matthew 5,6&7. ``Please direct me to Jesus’ teachings on the matter.’’

Matthew 5,6,7, Jesus is addressing the problems the Jews have, and raises the standard of the 10 commandments:
Matt 5:21, 22 – murder is more than an act, whoever is angry with his brother...shall be in danger of the judgment Matt 5:27 -- adultery is more than an act, whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already commited adultery.’’

Jesus then continues about love for enemies, the second mile, forbidding oaths, do not judge, judging, seeking etc.

Where are the other 8 commandments? Just because Jesus did not mention them here, does it mean He discarded them? NO!
He only addressed those that were an immediate problem – by this time the Jews really did not struggle with idolatry etc. anymore, in fact they had become legalistic experts. Same for the Sabbath.
As for Jesus – HE DIED ON THE CROSS BECAUSE THE LAW COULD NOT BE CHANGED! But we are happy for the church fathers to change the law for their own convenience?

1. Read Matt 5:17, 18 ``Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or Prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore BREAKS ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS, AND TEACHES MEN SO, SHALL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN;’’ – all 10 Commandments were very valid.
2. Talking about the fall of Jerusalem 40 years later in A.D 70, read Matt 24:20 where Jesus warns them: And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.’’ Jesus wanted His followers to Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy’’ 40 YEARS AFTER HIS DEATH!
3. Jesus claims the Biblical Sabbath (Saturday) as His own – Mark 2:27, 28: ``The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the SON OF MAN IS ALSO LORD OF THE SABBATH!’’ Obviously this day was important to Jesus.
4. Jesus was a faithful Sabbath keeper – Luke 4:16: ``So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day…’’
5. Regarding 4 – Hebrews 13:8 ``Jesus Christ is THE SAME yesterday, today, and forever.’’
6. Even in death, Jesus RESTED ON THE SABBATH DAY – Luke 23:54,55: ``That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. AND THEY RESTED ON THE SABBATH ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT.’’
7. (Paul’s view on the Sabbath) Read Acts 16:13 which took place 20 YEARS AFTER JESUS’ DEATH – ``And ON THE SABBATH DAY we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there…’’

Patrick, I suppose the bottom line is this: Do you and I find TRUTH in GOD’S WORD, or do we look for TRUTH in THE CHURCH FATHERS? You need to decide that one…

God bless and have a happy Sunday,

Friedrich

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

My only point was/is that you cannot characterize the whole group based on a few that you locked horns with. I mean; how much stuff do I read from you guys!! Get real is all I was saying. :tsktsk:

You are correct on this issue, and I agree with you, this happens across the board. Sometimes a context being translated thrid party, can conflict with an official teaching, on the surface. That is why we Catholics can always refer to our catechism for clarification. One cannot question the reality of “get real” when one has lived it and experienced it. Myself, and Mary’s Roses who was SDA appear to be in reality through experiences.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You will see some variations on what people know and teach re Constantine, and what he did or did not do; (not official teachings though) but one thing you will not see is that Adventists do not officially teach that the Catholic Church did not exist before Constantine, which I believe was somewhere in the 300 BC area? If you heard someone say different, then thats fine; but you will not be able to find this in the official teachings. You know where their web site is as well as I do. Show us where it is an official teaching.

Very good, Protestant 101, by your wording, I cannot find holes in it to refute here. Although you have me at a disadvantage, because I haven’t a clue of why you believe the Catholic church was somwhere in the 300 B.C area? do you mean 300 A.D.? Just for clarification, Jesus started his Church on Peter 30-33 A.D, the official birth of the Catholic church was at pentecost upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ our savior. Can you see why I am confused by your 300 B.C dating. Unless you are speaking about the “fulfillment” of the covenant begining, which becomes to deep of a study for this layperson.

Thanks for your response; Peace be with you

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Patrick

1. Re. the `painkiller’/vinegar on the cross:
   Then they gave Him wine mingled with myrrh to drink, but HE DID NOT TAKE IT.'' Mark 15:23 --the 3rd hour Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink… and Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.’’ Mark 15:36,37
   Obviously Jesus refused any drug that could becloud His mind in the great battle for our salvation – 1 slip of a dulled/intoxicated mind could have caused our eternal death!
   Three hours later, the battle was over, and in His last moment he allowed a few drops of ``sour wine’’/vinegar to moisten his lips as He died.

Patrick, I suppose the bottom line is this: Do you and I find TRUTH in GOD’S WORD, or do we look for TRUTH in THE CHURCH FATHERS? You need to decide that one…

God bless and have a happy Sunday,

Friedrich

Hi Friedrich,

I only have time to respond to a couple things, but will resond to the others later. So in the meantime you can talk with me about these responses.

I not only look for Truth in God’s Word, I find it there. And please remember that Jesus is God’s Word. The Bible as you pointed out is a book of thought inspired writings about God.

For clarification once again on Jesus receiving the wine vinegar on the cross, here are the accounts, with the chronology of when Jesus refused the wine vinegar and when he received it on the cross. He did receive it.

Mark 15:21A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross. 22They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 23Then they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it. 24And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get. 25It was the third hour when they crucified him. 26The written notice of the charge against him read: THE KING OF THE JEWS. 27They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left. 29Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30come down from the cross and save yourself!” 31In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
The Death of Jesus 33At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
35When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.” 36One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said. 37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Matthew 27:32As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.** 36And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
The Death of Jesus
45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.” 48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.” 50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

John 19:16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified
The Crucifixion
So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. 17Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). 18Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle. 19Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. 21The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, “Do not write ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.” 22Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.” 23When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. 24"Let’s not tear it," they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, “They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.” So this is what the soldiers did. 25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. The Death of Jesus 28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Jesus refused the drink when first offered to him and then received it on the cross. The book of John was written by the disciple John who stood at the foot of the cross with Mary as Jesus hung there. He was an eye witness. Will you acknowledge what John wrote, now contained in the Bible, as true?

see Response (cont’d) 2**

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Response (cont’d) 2

Below is John 6. I have highlighted in red where Jesus tells his followers that whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life. And take special note of verse 55 where Jesus says his flesh is real (not symbolic) food and his blood is real (not symblolic) drink. REAL…this does not appear to be either a simile or a metaphor. So please tell me what you think eating his flesh and drinking his blood, the real food and the real drink, that gives eternal life, means to you. I can only go by what the Bible says about this…actually I can only go by what God’s Word, Jesus, says about this.

John 6:1Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick. 3Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4The Jewish Passover Feast was near.
5When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do. 7Philip answered him, “Eight months’ wages would not buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!” 8Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9"Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?" 10Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and the men sat down, about five thousand of them. 11Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish. 12When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten. 14After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself. Jesus Walks on the Water
16When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19When they had rowed three or three and a half miles,** they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified. 20But he said to them, “It is I; don’t be afraid.” 21Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading. 22The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
Jesus the Bread of Life
25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” 26Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” 28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 30So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34"Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.” 35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” 41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” 43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is **real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.” 70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Patrick

1. Regarding Jesus’ teaching on the Sabbath in the NT:
   You state that Jesus mentions `other parts of the 10 commandments’’ in Matthew 5,6&7. ``Please direct me to Jesus’ teachings on the matter.’’

Matthew 5,6,7, Jesus is addressing the problems the Jews have, and raises the standard of the 10 commandments:
Matt 5:21, 22 – murder is more than an act, whoever is angry with his brother...shall be in danger of the judgment Matt 5:27 -- adultery is more than an act, whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already commited adultery.’’

Jesus then continues about love for enemies, the second mile, forbidding oaths, do not judge, judging, seeking etc.

Where are the other 8 commandments? Just because Jesus did not mention them here, does it mean He discarded them? NO!
He only addressed those that were an immediate problem – by this time the Jews really did not struggle with idolatry etc. anymore, in fact they had become legalistic experts. Same for the Sabbath.
As for Jesus – HE DIED ON THE CROSS BECAUSE THE LAW COULD NOT BE CHANGED! But we are happy for the church fathers to change the law for their own convenience?

1. Read Matt 5:17, 18 ``Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or Prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore BREAKS ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS, AND TEACHES MEN SO, SHALL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN;’’ – all 10 Commandments were very valid.
2. Talking about the fall of Jerusalem 40 years later in A.D 70, read Matt 24:20 where Jesus warns them: And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.’’ Jesus wanted His followers to Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy’’ 40 YEARS AFTER HIS DEATH!
3. Jesus claims the Biblical Sabbath (Saturday) as His own – Mark 2:27, 28: ``The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the SON OF MAN IS ALSO LORD OF THE SABBATH!’’ Obviously this day was important to Jesus.
4. Jesus was a faithful Sabbath keeper – Luke 4:16: ``So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day…’’
5. Regarding 4 – Hebrews 13:8 ``Jesus Christ is THE SAME yesterday, today, and forever.’’
6. Even in death, Jesus RESTED ON THE SABBATH DAY – Luke 23:54,55: ``That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. AND THEY RESTED ON THE SABBATH ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT.’’
7. (Paul’s view on the Sabbath) Read Acts 16:13 which took place 20 YEARS AFTER JESUS’ DEATH – ``And ON THE SABBATH DAY we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there…’’

Patrick, I suppose the bottom line is this: Do you and I find TRUTH in GOD’S WORD, or do we look for TRUTH in THE CHURCH FATHERS? You need to decide that one…

God bless and have a happy Sunday,

Friedrich

I do have time to respond to all of your reply.

You have pointed out what Jesus DID as was his custom, and yet other than where you point out where Jesus said that he was Lord of the sabbath, you have not provided any in depth TEACHING by Jesus about the sabbath. If keeping the 7th day sabbath is as important as SDAs claim, espcially that it is, or will be, the Seal of God, and that sunday is, or will be the Mark of the Beast, show me from the Bible where Jesus taught about the importance and necessity of sabbath keeping, not just examples that he kept the sabbath, which was his custom as a Jew. Things that are so essential to our salvation, Jesus taught over and over…certainly if the sabbath is the seal of God that will keep Christians from being destroyed by the anti-christ and lost eternally…Jesus would have spent much more time preaching and teaching about something so important. And he doesn’t.

And if you are to study the words “sign” and “seal” in the bible, you will find in the OT that the sabbath was a sign between God and the Jews. The sabbath is nowhere in the bible referred to as the seal of God. In fact if you study what the bible says about God’s seal…it is over and over again talking about the Holy Spirit being sent from God and recived by those who believe in Jesus…even for Jesus at his baptism. Show me from the Bible, scriptures that say otherwise. Forget the Chruch fathers and Ellen G. White…show me from the scripture.

God bless,
Patrick Murebil

 

[Protestant101]

Very good, Protestant 101, by your wording, I cannot find holes in it to refute here. Although you have me at a disadvantage, because I haven’t a clue of why you believe the Catholic church was somwhere in the 300 B.C area?

LOL, yes, that was meant to be 300AD. it was a typo.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Patrick

Regarding the communion bread and wine–
I am a language teacher, and at the risk of boring you, need to remind us of 2 basic figures of speach.
a. Simile/comparison: Jimmy, you stink LIKE a skunk! – Jimmy shares the characteristic of a foul smell with a skunk
b. Metaphor: Jimmy, you (ARE a) skunk! –Jimmy does not have black/white fur, a curved tail and anal gland that emits foul odours, but he shares many characteristics of a skunk! This is to emphasize the point!

Jesus uses METAPHORS to emphasize His words: I AM the door, the Good Shepherd, the Light, the Way… This bread IS my body, This wine IS my blood, this cup IS the new testament.

o When you take a metaphor and turn it into reality, the results are weird! Is Jesus a wooden door, a smelly shepherd , a light/lamp? Is the bread Jesus’ real flesh? Is the wine Jesus’ real blood? Is the communion cup Jesus’ real testament?
o If you insist on making metaphors facts, then be consistent throughout scripture… but better still, read the Bible with intelligent consistency, and avoid weird conclusions.

Dear Friedrich,

My brother, I am so happy right now with what you have pointed out above regarding similes and metaphors, that if you were standing next to me, I’d give you the biggest hug!! As we have been communicating, I really and truly am listening to you, and I hope you are really and truly listening to me. I have been praying for God to illuminate our minds (mostly mine) and that in the Spirit of Truth we can discover Truth. So I have been praying about what you reminded us of regarding similes and metaphors and how to apply those rules to the Bible in order to be consistent throughout scripture. And by the way, forgive me for accusing you of making up verses in the Bible about Jesus saying he was the door…you didn’t make that up, it is just that when you gave me the scripture reference, my Bible used the term gate. I’m using the New International Version, which version are you using? Anyway, we are on the same page and I gave some examples below for similes and metaphors. And THEN I will show you how your teaching helped to illuminate my mind and understanding…PRAISE GOD!!!

Similes:
Matthew 13:31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field.
Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

In each instance where a simile is used, the structure of the simile is as follows:
[The object being described] IS LIKE [the object used for description].

So if we take the above similes and made them literal and switched the structure of the language we would get things like the following:

A mustard seed is the Kingdom of Heaven
A dove is the Spirit of God
A wise man who built his house on the rock is the one who hears Jesus words and puts them into practice.

Metaphors:
John 10:7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

In each instance where a metaphor is used, the structure is the same as for a simile as follows:

[The object being described] (Jesus) IS described by [the object used for description] (gate, good shepherd, the vine, etc.)

So if we take the above metaphors and make them literal and switched the structure of the language we would get things like the following:

Jesus is the gate for the sheep.
Jesus is the good shepherd.
Jesus is the vine.

The object being described always precedes the object used for description. While using metaphors to teach, Jesus always refers to himself first and then to the object he is using to teach about himself. He repeatedly says “I am….”, “I am….” “I am…”
I checked through bible passage after bible passage and these rules apply very clearly and consistently throughout the New Testament at least…I did not do research in the Old Testament…but we were talking primarily about Jesus and his teachings, so I think it is safe to say that we are together now with these rules of similes and metaphors.

However, there are some verses where these rules don’t apply, and that sends up a signal flag. Since the rules do not apply to these verses in the Gospels, it seems safe to say that these verses are not metaphors. And I never saw this until you pointed it out, I thought and prayed about it, and then studied the scriptures.

The following three verses break the rules:

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
Mark 14:22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

Here we find Jesus first referring to an inanimate object and then to himself. Whereas before Jesus always begins metaphors regarding himself with a reference to himself first and then to the object used for description. Yet here, and nowhere else that I can find in the gospels, Jesus does the opposite of the rules of metaphor that are clear in all the other verses.

Now lets compare these verses with the verses above in light of the rules of metaphors. And here for the sake of showing the contrast I will use the term “This bread” instead of “This”, since we both know that here Jesus is holding up the bread he is about to distribute at the last supper. So….

I (Jesus) am the gate for the sheep (object used for description).
This bread (object used for description) is my body (Jesus)

I (Jesus) am the good shepherd (object used for description).
This bread (object used for description) is my body (Jesus).

I (Jesus) am the vine (object used for description)
This bread (object used for description) is my body (Jesus) given for you.

If were were to be consistent in our reading of the bible, and follow the rules established for metaphors consistently as we have in all the other verses that are metaphors, then our reading of the account of the last supper would have to be as follows:

My body (Jesus) is this bread (object of description) given for you.

But that is not what it says, and I cannot find anywhere else in the Gospels (except for the statements “This is my blood”) where Jesus first takes an object and then says it is Him. If there is such another instance of this usage in the Gospels or the New Testament, I cannot find it.

So based on your excellent reminders about similes and metaphors, I am left to conclude that the statements of Jesus at the Last Supper, are not metaphors. And taken with Jesus teachings in John 6 we indeed have a truly amazing fact…and now we must decide what our response shall be.

Brother Friedrich, I deeply appreciate your help in this matter that has allowed me to see more clearly the truth!!! Praise God!!! Please do not ignore your own teachings!

God bless!!
Patrick Murebil

 

[Marsha_Adams]

In our discussion on COMMUNION:
Door – I am the door of the sheep"" -- John 10:7 Shepherd -- I am the good shepherd’’ – John 10:14
Light – ``I am the light of the world’’ – John 8:12
I still find it inconsistent that you emphatically say YES, BREAD=CHRIST’S LITERAL BODY’, YES, WINE=CHRIST’S LITERAL BLOOD, but NO – cup IS NOT Christ’s literal new testament (only symbolic?)…These 3 metaphoric phrases occur in the same passage, yet you say 2 are literal, and 1 is symbolical…rather make ALL the same!

Friedrich:

I was born and raised SDA. I graduated from Andrews University (an SDA establishment) with a minor in religion. Preached from SDA pulpits, gave many Bible studies, and briefly taught religion in an SDA church school. At the age of 31 I converted Roman Catholic.

Regarding your comments quoted above, I have this to say. When Jesus said, “I am the door” nobody said he’s nuts, he’s no door, I am soooo outta here. Likewise when Jesus said I am the good shepherd, nobody said "What? I thought his dad was a carpenter. When he said I am the light of the world, no body said “sheesh now this guy thinks he’s the sun?” And the reason NOBODY said those things was because they all recognized a metaphor when they heard one.

So why suddenly when Jesus said, “you must eat my flesh and drink my blood” did everyone start mumbling this is a hard saying, I outta here? Because they KNEW it wasn’t a metaphor, they KNEW he was being literal.

Jesus even gave His disciples a sign to prove that he was being literal, note John 6:61, 62: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?"

Now here is the question Friedrich, did Jesus literally ascend into heaven? If Jesus did literally ascend then that proves that His Body and Blood are literally to be eaten.

 

[Protestant101]

And if you are to study the words “sign” and “seal” in the bible, you will find in the OT that the sabbath was a sign between God and the Jews. The sabbath is nowhere in the bible referred to as the seal of God. In fact if you study what the bible says about God’s seal…it is over and over again talking about the Holy Spirit being sent from God and recived by those who believe in Jesus…even for Jesus at his baptism. Show me from the Bible, scriptures that say otherwise. , Patrick Murebil

Hello Patrick;

Just a quick note for now as I havn’t much time. I agree that it is very important to understand what the Bible means when it talks about “signs” or “seals.” Especially seals, since this topic is dealing with the Sabbath, and related things to the sabbath, such as how it is a “seal” of God.

After reading comments here about the seal of God being the Holy Spirit; I have some questions. I don’t think the topic is well understood at all.

First, a “seal” of God won’t save anyone. Only Jesus saves. (see John 1:29).

The purpose of a “seal” is to provide evidence, or a “sign” that we truly belong to Christ; and you will have to admit that there can be many “signs” of this in a believer’s life. The seventh-day Sabbath would not be the only sign or “seal.” As you may know, Adventists do see the Sabbath as “the seal” in the end of time, just as Bible prophecy is drawing to a close; yet it must be understood that the Bible does not indicate that the Sabbath is a seal of any kind with some people today.

One of the more dangerous trends in the Christian world today with understanding “the seal of God” is that we have grown to see it as The Holy Spirit Himself, but I would like to ask where you find such a verse in the Bible that actually says the Person of The Holy Spirit is the “seal of God?”

The seal of God is not described by too many verses in the Bible - atleast not explicitly, but the one you are likely referring to is as follows:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This text shows that the actual 'seal" is not the Holy Spirit, but is done by the Holy Spirit. There is an aspect of having God’s seal that is largely ignored by the Christian world, and this is described best in the following:

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

This means that the true seal of God is that it is God’s sovereign power to know who is sealed; it says that the “seal” of the the very foundation of God is the fact that God knows all them that are truly His. This is the Holy Spirit’s role, to make us like that! The outward evidence of this seal is, by the text, the departure from iniquity; which of course the Holy Spirit helps us with too, but it is not accurate to say the The Person of The Spirit is “the seal.”

Likewise, the seventh-day Sabbath is seen as an outward evidence of this “seal” at some point in time; and while some have gotten carried away with calling it “the seal” now; it can only be seen at this point in time as “a seal,” for many Christians whom God knows to be truly His, yet they do not keep the Sabbath.

 

[Protestant101]

So why suddenly when Jesus said, “you must eat my flesh and drink my blood” did everyone start mumbling this is a hard saying, I outta here? Because they KNEW it wasn’t a metaphor, they KNEW he was being literal.

What you state here is conjecture. I would like to see you provide proof that this is “literal.” However; it is off topic for this thread; so we should start another topic; unless you can show how your points would relate to the Sabbath Sunday questions at hand. it is possible that I have missed a point you tried to make.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

What you state here is conjecture. I would like to see you provide proof that this is “literal.” However; it is off topic for this thread; so we should start another topic; unless you can show how your points would relate to the Sabbath Sunday questions at hand. it is possible that I have missed a point you tried to make.

How can it be off topic? I was responding to (and even quoted) part of Friedrichs post #65 on this thread,

 

[Protestant101]

How can it be off topic? I was responding to (and even quoted) part of Friedrichs post #65 on this thread,

Actually; I got myself mixed up here somehow; thinking I was on another thread in which I have been discussing the Sabbath with some forum members. Sorry about that!

To continue on then with this subject; can you explain why this text about “the bread” and ‘the wine" as being the literal description of Jesus’ flesh and blood?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

What you state here is conjecture. I would like to see you provide proof that this is “literal.” However; it is off topic for this thread; so we should start another topic; unless you can show how your points would relate to the Sabbath Sunday questions at hand. it is possible that I have missed a point you tried to make.

Dear Protestant 101,

If by “proof that this is literal”, you mean that the bread and wine offered by Jesus at the Last Supper become his literal flesh and blood, then what more proof do you need other than Jesus holding it up and saying “This is my body”?

If you go back through this thread from the beginning, you find the scriptures referrenced and explained to the best of our ability. The scriptures regarding the Last Supper, John 6, 1 Corinthians 11. In this thread we have provided scriptures and reasoning.

And yet I do understand your questioning of this, because I had the same mind that you and Friedrich have. Well, actually I can’t say that because I do not know your thoughts, so let me re-phrase that. The words that you and Friedrich use here are the same words that I used at one time, and please believe me when I tell you that I could not understand this teaching, but I wanted to. Whether or not I would believe it, I didn’t care at the time, but I did want to understand it. Ultimately it is a matter of faith rather than proof, and yet there is more than abundant proof to at least understand the teaching if not agree with it. As a SDA I wanted proof. I wasn’t thinking about what I would do with the proof, but I wanted proof to at least understand this “thing” going on in the Catholic Church. At times when I attended a Catholic Church service I detested everything surrounding communion. I thought, how can “they” put God in a box?; How can “they” ask God to accept this sacrifice since Jesus was offered once for all? And as I sat there from time to time, in my mind I would curse “them” and all they were doing. And I thought up curses I would not dare think again. **I hated “them”…**NOT the curses, the CATHOLICS. I sincerely hope that most people are not like I was.

And then at one service, I heard a priest preach about this subject. When we left, I told my wife that if I were to ever believe the Eucharist, which I never would, it would be because of what that priest said about it. So at that point I merely wanted to understand it. I went into the book store at the church and asked the lady what books she had for a Protestant who wanted to understand the Eucharist. I told her it was for a friend. She asked me if my “friend” would prefer a short book or a bigger book. I replied “bigger”. I bought and read “The Hidden Manna: A Theology of the Eucharist”.

I was skeptical about reading a book by a Catholic, yet this is what Catholics believe, so who better to tell me what they believe. I knew I couldn’t tell them what they believed.

As far as proof, the proof that had the biggest impact on me at first were the beliefs and practices of the early Church as documented in their writings, many of which are provided in “The Hidden Manna” book. From the beginning of the Church right after the time of Jesus, the teachings about the “real presence” are there. The author writes about arguements in the early church and how they were resolved, and interestingly enough, those arguements were about the same questions I had 2000 years later. The author lays out, accurately, Protestant beliefs about communion, and over all the book contains great breadth and depth of content.

I guess my point is my friend, if you want proof and what we have offered here is not sufficient, then I suggest that you get a copy of the book I just mentioned, read it, and then believe it, don’t believe it, love it, hate it, keep it, pass it on, throw it away, do whatever you see fit. But if you do want proof, and want to understand it, that is what I suggest. What you do after that is between you and God. Or if you don’t want to read that book, search out the earliest teachings of the Christian Chruch on this subject and I promise you that you will be surprised at the very least.

And please understand that I have no agenda to convert you to Catholicism. In fact, I’m not yet a Catholic and won’t be until the Spring of 2009. I have never met a Catholic who tried to convert me, and I am not out to convert you…all of that is between you and God. But if you do desire proof regarding this, then what I have said above is the best I can do. We will still be brothers and we will continue to communicate. I just ask that you keep me in your prayers and I will keep you in mine, and we will always rejoice in Jesus!!

God bless all,
Patrick Murebil

 

[Marsha_Adams]

To continue on then with this subject; can you explain why this text about “the bread” and ‘the wine" as being the literal description of Jesus’ flesh and blood?

Jesus gave His disciples a sign to prove that he was being literal, note John 6:61, 62: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?"

The ascension was literal, therefore eating Jesus’ Body and Blood is also literal. Jesus said in Mark 14:22-24 that the bread and wine are His Body and Blood.

Consider this, Matthew, Mark and Luke all include the Last Supper in which Jesus tells them that the bread and wine are His Body and Blood, but John doesn’t. Instead John has in chapter 6 an entire discourse on eating Jesus’ flesh and blood and the sign of the ascension as proof that it is literal, not symbolic.

 

[Protestant101]

If you go back through this thread from the beginning, you find the scriptures referrenced and explained to the best of our ability. The scriptures regarding the Last Supper, John 6, 1 Corinthians 11. In this thread we have provided scriptures and reasoning.

And please understand that I have no agenda to convert you to Catholicism. In fact, I’m not yet a Catholic and won’t be until the Spring of 2009. I have never met a Catholic who tried to convert me, and I am not out to convert you…all of that is between you and God. But if you do desire proof regarding this, then what I have said above is the best I can do. We will still be brothers and we will continue to communicate. I just ask that you keep me in your prayers and I will keep you in mine, and we will always rejoice in Jesus!!

God bless all,
Patrick Murebil

Hi Patrick; I did read all of those former posts, and I do see how Catholics & you have given a detailed explanation of your understanding. It is good to know where people are coming from. I believe that there are still other possibilities to this subject, which have not been covered by any of the explanations yet. After reading the post of another forum member; I decided that I will post a reply to that person later today to start explaining what I mean.

BTW; I didn’t get the feeling that you were trying to “convert” me; although certain other forum members have certainly given it a shot.