V
VWcrazy
Guest
That’s funny - I see Protestants doing this to Catholics on this forum.
- Status
A
adrift
Guest
I understand. When difficult questions are asked, huff and puff and leave.
F
Friedrich
Guest
Dear all
I have not been on this particular thread for a few days, and miss the courtesy and love of Patrick, MercyGate and others! What is going on here – none of you sound very Christlike!
I suspect the ire is a direct result of the frustration of arguing in circles, because we are not comparing apples with apples.
If I read you correctly, then Catholics believe they have the sole right to interpret the Bible, (or add/subtract from it) because the Pope is infallible and because all your priests are directly appointed by Christ since Peter was the first priest/pope. The logical conclusion would be that all other Christians are doomed to hell because we’ve missed the Catholic boat. On the other hand, non-Catholic Christians (hopefully) take only the Bible as their authority, hence the frustration of discussing any Bible topic from these different viewpoints.
May I try to simplify WHY I believe ONLY in GOD’S WORD?
As a child we loved playing a game called `telephone’ – you get about 20 kids to sit in a circle, and no 1 whispers a message into no 2’s ear (eg. J
Similary we all have rulers that are 12 inches or 30 cm long. Imagine if nobody checked for 2000 years if the ruler is the right length, and we all just made our new rulers by copying them from prevous ones — some of us could end up with rulers that are 15 inches or 10 inches long! How do we check if our rulers are ``correct’’? By comparing with the true measurement kept in Paris in a temperature controlled vault by the International Bureau for Standards.
So Catholics claim their `ruler’ is the only correct one, because they have passed it on faithfully via a system called Tradition. And now 2000 years later, you say it is the only True Measure! How do you know that? Maybe your 12 inch ruler has become 36 inches long with all the additions that have come with time!
So lets play the children’s game again – take your
Take your 10 most important doctrines, and ask the question: ``Did Peter ever tell us to do this?’’
Confession – Did Peter ever ask anybody to confess to him?
Infallability – Did Peter ever claim to be infallible, equal to God?
Maryology – Did Peter ever see Mary as a sinless female Deity/mediator who was immortal?
Purgatory – Did Peter ever say anything about it?
Immortal soul – Did Peter say man’s soul is immortal?
Saints – Did Peter ever encourage prayers to saints?
Indulgences – Ever mentioned?
etc.
AS CHRISTIANS WE ALL NEED TO GO AHEAD AND ASK THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT ALL OUR MAJOR DOCTRINES.
IS YOUR/MY MESSAGE GARBLED OR LIKE THE ORIGINAL?
Is your/my message pagan belief with a varnish of Biblical shine?
When Jesus compared the Jewish
``To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.’’ Is 8:20
CHECK YOUR BIBLE OUT WITHOUT THE GLASSES OF TRADITION, MAKE SURE YOUR MESSAGE NO 20 IS THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL NO 1 – JESUS WORDS!
God bless,
Friedrich
I have not been on this particular thread for a few days, and miss the courtesy and love of Patrick, MercyGate and others! What is going on here – none of you sound very Christlike!
I suspect the ire is a direct result of the frustration of arguing in circles, because we are not comparing apples with apples.
If I read you correctly, then Catholics believe they have the sole right to interpret the Bible, (or add/subtract from it) because the Pope is infallible and because all your priests are directly appointed by Christ since Peter was the first priest/pope. The logical conclusion would be that all other Christians are doomed to hell because we’ve missed the Catholic boat. On the other hand, non-Catholic Christians (hopefully) take only the Bible as their authority, hence the frustration of discussing any Bible topic from these different viewpoints.
May I try to simplify WHY I believe ONLY in GOD’S WORD?
As a child we loved playing a game called `telephone’ – you get about 20 kids to sit in a circle, and no 1 whispers a message into no 2’s ear (eg. J
ack gave Mary a flower because her mother helped him when he fell off his bicycle''). By the time the message gets to no 20, it is totally garbled -- Mary’s mother drove over Jack’s bicycle because he stole her flowers’’. Some messages were really hillarious! How did we check no 20’s message? By comparing it with no 1.Similary we all have rulers that are 12 inches or 30 cm long. Imagine if nobody checked for 2000 years if the ruler is the right length, and we all just made our new rulers by copying them from prevous ones — some of us could end up with rulers that are 15 inches or 10 inches long! How do we check if our rulers are ``correct’’? By comparing with the true measurement kept in Paris in a temperature controlled vault by the International Bureau for Standards.
So Catholics claim their `ruler’ is the only correct one, because they have passed it on faithfully via a system called Tradition. And now 2000 years later, you say it is the only True Measure! How do you know that? Maybe your 12 inch ruler has become 36 inches long with all the additions that have come with time!
So lets play the children’s game again – take your
Catholic story no 20'' and put it next to the originalPeter’s story no 1’’ (forget for a moment that Jesus = the original story no 1), and see if it adds up!Take your 10 most important doctrines, and ask the question: ``Did Peter ever tell us to do this?’’
Confession – Did Peter ever ask anybody to confess to him?
Infallability – Did Peter ever claim to be infallible, equal to God?
Maryology – Did Peter ever see Mary as a sinless female Deity/mediator who was immortal?
Purgatory – Did Peter ever say anything about it?
Immortal soul – Did Peter say man’s soul is immortal?
Saints – Did Peter ever encourage prayers to saints?
Indulgences – Ever mentioned?
etc.
AS CHRISTIANS WE ALL NEED TO GO AHEAD AND ASK THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT ALL OUR MAJOR DOCTRINES.
IS YOUR/MY MESSAGE GARBLED OR LIKE THE ORIGINAL?
Is your/my message pagan belief with a varnish of Biblical shine?
When Jesus compared the Jewish
message'' with the original God-given MESSAGE, they fell short: They worship me in vain; their teaching are but rules taught by men’’ Mat 15:9``To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.’’ Is 8:20
CHECK YOUR BIBLE OUT WITHOUT THE GLASSES OF TRADITION, MAKE SURE YOUR MESSAGE NO 20 IS THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL NO 1 – JESUS WORDS!
God bless,
Friedrich
M
mercygate
Guest
Tradition does not work like the telephone game because tradition is public. It is not just passing something along one person at a time. With Sacred Tradition, you have multiple witnesses comparing notes all along the way. If you play the “telephone game” using a written message, you will also find discrepancies in copying. but by comparing all the copies, you can get back to the original with almost 100% accuracy.
For that matter, your “telephone game” analogy can apply to the oral precursors of scripture as well. However, with some 6000 copies of the New Testament, which are overwhelmingly in agreement with one another, and with scholarship demonstrating the reliability of oral tradition in ancient cultures, it is clear that oral tradition managed to maintain a consistent message and to transfer it to ink and papyrus or parchment very accurately.
Is it on this thread that I mentioned reading Lee Strobel’s The Case for the Real Jesus? Strobel quotes several Protestant scholars on the integrity of Scripture and tradition. Even these Protestants concur that the New Testament is a product of sacred Tradition, and they unashamedly use the words “Sacred Tradition.”
What would those doctrines be? The Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the Ascension the Trinity . . . Any problem with those?
There is plenty of scriptural warrant for the practice of confession. “Peter” didn’t make this up. Jesus did. And the Tradition and practice of the early Church – before the canonization of Scripture – bear this out.
Nobody claims that Peter is “equal to God.” You may be confusing infallibility with impeccability. The charism of infallibility is a narrow one, and a subset under the doctrine of the indefectibility of the Church as promised by Our Lord.
Please tell me you don’t really think the Catholic Church believes that Mary is a “female deity?”
He actually does. So does Paul. Do they use the word “Purgatory”? No. But they don’t use the words Incarnation or Trinity either.
The immortality of the soul is the assumptiion of the entire Judaeo-Christian anthropology. Otherwise, what is salvation FOR?
Why are you asking each question as if it must come from “Peter.”? The Communion of Saints is well present in Scripture.
Perfectly consistent with the Power of the Keys.
Nobody has ever subjected any teaching to more scrutiny than the Catholic Church has. Nobody. Period.
One of the things that makes people think Catholic teaching is “garbled” is that when they come upon the full-grown mustard tree, they do not recognize the seed from which it grew, so they think it is not the same. In Catholic teaching, doctrine does not expand or contract. What we understand of it, or how it is applied (indulgences, eg) may develop. But doctrine is consistent.
As for “pagan” beliefs: nope. Not one. No varnish. Are some Christian symbols shared by the pagan world? Sure. The Good Shepherd, for starters. Do people in your religious tradition wear wedding bands, by the way?
Not everything taught “by” men is antithetical to the core belief or is “of” men. Jesus objected to teachings that REPLACED the essential message.
Well, you agree with the Catholic Church on that one!
Ah. There is the problem. The glasses that make sense of Scripture are the glasses worn by the people who wrote Scripture. You cannot separate Scripture from Tradition because Scripture IS Tradition.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello Richard,
I am sorry that I have to disagree with you but this is a man-made, fabricated, Protestant, anti-Catholic myth.
Which Ten Commandments are you referring to? There are at least two Protestant versions.
Protestants have and they use (depending on the Protestant denomination),two different Ten Commandments. I think the one that you are referring to, has only been around for a hundred years or so and it was an obvious attempt to discredit Catholicism by changing the Commandments, to line up with an anti-Catholic sentiment.
Moreover, this is a fairly recent development, because none of the early Protestant Churches, disagreed with the Catholic version of the Ten Commandments.
When Protestants (recent history) changed the Ten Commandments and added the “No Graven Image” Commandment (No. 2), They combined the two “Coveting” Commandments into one, so that there would still be “Ten” Commandments.
Apparently, they thought that no one would notice….
I noticed…
Peace
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
My dear brothers and sisters,
May I ask that everyone take one (or a couple) deep breaths, thank God that we are alive, take a look at each other and acknowledge that we ALL are here talking because at some point in time we all asked Jesus into our lives as we believed and accepted the gift of eternal life which Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection makes certain for us. It is my belief, that those writing here and sharing their thoughts are doing so because what they believe is important to them, to me. There is very little doubt in my mind that each person here loves Jesus supremely (even the Catholics and even the Seventh-day Adventists)
. There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that we disagree on some very important issues, and that is ok. And I don’t know about anyone else, but there is at times, an unpleasant spirit present in our disagreement, which leads to accusations, which leads to responses containing more accusations, which leads to anger, which leads to arguing, which leads to a desire to win the argument, which both negates the love that we should have for each other as taught us by our Master, Jesus Christ, and creates some nice entertainment for the devil and those that are his. I will be the first one here to confess that I have been tempted to yield to this mode of behavior and apologize to anyone whom I’ve treated in that manner. Please forgive me. We who love Jesus are NOT enemies.
Having been on both sides of these issues, being a former SDA, and in the process of joining the Catholic church. I would like to state for the record officially, that the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not teach that Christian’s souls will be lost if they are not members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. And I would like to state for the record officially, that the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Christian’s souls will be lost if they are not members of the Roman Catholic Church. I led my dad into the SDA church, he became an elder and sabbath school teacher, and loved Jesus with all his heart, mind, and soul. He died as I was on my way out of the SDA church. I will see him again, and I look forward to that day…that is the blessed hope that is only possible because of God’s love for us and Jesus’ life and sacrifice for us. We are all following Jesus as we seek his will in our lives through prayer and reflection and study and reasoning…at least I hope that is what we are all doing, and I believe we are…we are here talking because it means so much to us…so many who profess to believe would not make this effort. And this effort is good for all of us, so please let’s pray in the name of Jesus, for his love as we communicate…please. I pray daily that we can communicate with the love of Jesus on here.
I would like to make a couple comments and then ask a couple questions.
First, having just finished reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I can assure those who don’t know, that the Catholic Church teaches the 10 commandments…in fact it is a large section of the catechism. Catholics do not worship graven images…I used to believe they did. I was wrong.
Second, regarding the seal of God. Protestant101, I liked very much your comments and agree with them. I do agree that the person of the Holy Spirit is not the seal of God, but is the power which SEALS God’s people through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. And as a result of this indwelling of the Holy Spirit which seals us IN JESUS, there are external signs. It is interesting that all the criteria regarding a King’s seal, His Name, His Dominion, His Role, can be found in the Lord’s Prayer which Jesus taught his disciples to pray when they asked him to teach them how to pray. Is praying the Lord’s prayer a sign of God’s seal, an external sign of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer? I would have to say that yes this is one of the external signs if we were to apply the Name, Dominion, Role rule of seals. Does this make the Lord’s prayer the seal of God? According to the Name, Dominion, Role rule, I suppose it could. I do not believe that it is though. I have not looked elsewhere in the scriptures, but my guess is we might be able to find other verses where the Name, Dominion, Role, rule applies to things other than the sabbath and the Lord’s prayer. However if we all agree that the sealing is the work of God internally in a believer, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in each believer, which creates a new person, a born again person, who is IN Jesus as Paul writes, what is the New Testament sign of this relastionship with God through Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What do you think about the following as the sign of the sealing of the believer IN Jesus through the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Galatians 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Jesus said John 15:4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Matthew 7:18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
see Reply (con’t) 2
May I ask that everyone take one (or a couple) deep breaths, thank God that we are alive, take a look at each other and acknowledge that we ALL are here talking because at some point in time we all asked Jesus into our lives as we believed and accepted the gift of eternal life which Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection makes certain for us. It is my belief, that those writing here and sharing their thoughts are doing so because what they believe is important to them, to me. There is very little doubt in my mind that each person here loves Jesus supremely (even the Catholics and even the Seventh-day Adventists)
. There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that we disagree on some very important issues, and that is ok. And I don’t know about anyone else, but there is at times, an unpleasant spirit present in our disagreement, which leads to accusations, which leads to responses containing more accusations, which leads to anger, which leads to arguing, which leads to a desire to win the argument, which both negates the love that we should have for each other as taught us by our Master, Jesus Christ, and creates some nice entertainment for the devil and those that are his. I will be the first one here to confess that I have been tempted to yield to this mode of behavior and apologize to anyone whom I’ve treated in that manner. Please forgive me. We who love Jesus are NOT enemies.Having been on both sides of these issues, being a former SDA, and in the process of joining the Catholic church. I would like to state for the record officially, that the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not teach that Christian’s souls will be lost if they are not members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. And I would like to state for the record officially, that the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Christian’s souls will be lost if they are not members of the Roman Catholic Church. I led my dad into the SDA church, he became an elder and sabbath school teacher, and loved Jesus with all his heart, mind, and soul. He died as I was on my way out of the SDA church. I will see him again, and I look forward to that day…that is the blessed hope that is only possible because of God’s love for us and Jesus’ life and sacrifice for us. We are all following Jesus as we seek his will in our lives through prayer and reflection and study and reasoning…at least I hope that is what we are all doing, and I believe we are…we are here talking because it means so much to us…so many who profess to believe would not make this effort. And this effort is good for all of us, so please let’s pray in the name of Jesus, for his love as we communicate…please. I pray daily that we can communicate with the love of Jesus on here.
I would like to make a couple comments and then ask a couple questions.
First, having just finished reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I can assure those who don’t know, that the Catholic Church teaches the 10 commandments…in fact it is a large section of the catechism. Catholics do not worship graven images…I used to believe they did. I was wrong.
Second, regarding the seal of God. Protestant101, I liked very much your comments and agree with them. I do agree that the person of the Holy Spirit is not the seal of God, but is the power which SEALS God’s people through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. And as a result of this indwelling of the Holy Spirit which seals us IN JESUS, there are external signs. It is interesting that all the criteria regarding a King’s seal, His Name, His Dominion, His Role, can be found in the Lord’s Prayer which Jesus taught his disciples to pray when they asked him to teach them how to pray. Is praying the Lord’s prayer a sign of God’s seal, an external sign of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer? I would have to say that yes this is one of the external signs if we were to apply the Name, Dominion, Role rule of seals. Does this make the Lord’s prayer the seal of God? According to the Name, Dominion, Role rule, I suppose it could. I do not believe that it is though. I have not looked elsewhere in the scriptures, but my guess is we might be able to find other verses where the Name, Dominion, Role, rule applies to things other than the sabbath and the Lord’s prayer. However if we all agree that the sealing is the work of God internally in a believer, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in each believer, which creates a new person, a born again person, who is IN Jesus as Paul writes, what is the New Testament sign of this relastionship with God through Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What do you think about the following as the sign of the sealing of the believer IN Jesus through the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Galatians 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Jesus said John 15:4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Matthew 7:18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
see Reply (con’t) 2
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Reply (con’t) 2
A couple comments:
To my Catholic brothers and sisters (and with all due respect to my SDA brothers and sisters).
You have done a wonderful job of presenting our beliefs regarding the Eucharist! And I have learned so much from your thoughts and comments…and I thank you deeply!
We have, I believe, reached an impasse with our SDA brothers and sisters, where we must accept to agree that we disagree. We have provided scriptures and reasons for our belief, and the disagreement persists…and that is OK! I had, at one time the same questions, objections, and beliefs about the Eucharist. But at this point, I persoannly do not believe that any more can be said that hasn’t already been said. At this point, whether or not to believe or disbelieve, is a matter of individual prayer, study, and faith. If we continue to answer the same questions over and over with the same results…well…I believe we do a dis-service to Christ and enter into a behavior that reduces our love and dignity as Christians. I ask that we don’t continue to participate in this circle of discussion that goes on and on without resolution. Of course, I have no authority to ask you to stop responding to this, and you are at liberty to continue in these rounds of discussion if you so choose, or feel led by the Spirit to do. I guess I’m just asking that you consider not responding to that issue here. What more can be said? It would take One from Heaven to come down and resolve this for us. Or how about this…I have a couple questions for the SDAs which I will ask below…why don’t we cease from responding at least until we give them full freedom and forum to respond…and then we can continue to communicate. However, I really do think there is little else we can say…this becomes a personal journey for all at this point. Let’s not bring disgrace upon charity.
To my Seventh-day Adventist brothers and sisters,
The charges, comparisons, or whatever you want to call them, of cannibalism, vampirism, and worshiping a piece of bread are all inaccurate and very offensive to me. It is now at this point in time your responsibility to pursue the answer to these questions. We have given you more than sufficient information regarding our beliefs. It is your responsibility, and yours alone, at this point in time to resolve in whatever way you find necessary, this issue. As always, I suggest that prayer for guidance and illumination by God is the best route to take for all of us. And I do love you, and do not want to let that love be destroyed by the curse of division of the Body of Christ. Pray or don’t pray…research or don’t research…this is in your hands now.
My questions to my SDA brothers and sisters,
I ask my Catholic brothers and sisters to rest a while on this thread and wait patiently with listening ears for these replies.
I love all of you and have no doubts that you all love and are IN Jesus…please let us rejoice in that!!
God bless you all,
Patrick Murebil
A couple comments:
To my Catholic brothers and sisters (and with all due respect to my SDA brothers and sisters).
You have done a wonderful job of presenting our beliefs regarding the Eucharist! And I have learned so much from your thoughts and comments…and I thank you deeply!
We have, I believe, reached an impasse with our SDA brothers and sisters, where we must accept to agree that we disagree. We have provided scriptures and reasons for our belief, and the disagreement persists…and that is OK! I had, at one time the same questions, objections, and beliefs about the Eucharist. But at this point, I persoannly do not believe that any more can be said that hasn’t already been said. At this point, whether or not to believe or disbelieve, is a matter of individual prayer, study, and faith. If we continue to answer the same questions over and over with the same results…well…I believe we do a dis-service to Christ and enter into a behavior that reduces our love and dignity as Christians. I ask that we don’t continue to participate in this circle of discussion that goes on and on without resolution. Of course, I have no authority to ask you to stop responding to this, and you are at liberty to continue in these rounds of discussion if you so choose, or feel led by the Spirit to do. I guess I’m just asking that you consider not responding to that issue here. What more can be said? It would take One from Heaven to come down and resolve this for us. Or how about this…I have a couple questions for the SDAs which I will ask below…why don’t we cease from responding at least until we give them full freedom and forum to respond…and then we can continue to communicate. However, I really do think there is little else we can say…this becomes a personal journey for all at this point. Let’s not bring disgrace upon charity.
To my Seventh-day Adventist brothers and sisters,
The charges, comparisons, or whatever you want to call them, of cannibalism, vampirism, and worshiping a piece of bread are all inaccurate and very offensive to me. It is now at this point in time your responsibility to pursue the answer to these questions. We have given you more than sufficient information regarding our beliefs. It is your responsibility, and yours alone, at this point in time to resolve in whatever way you find necessary, this issue. As always, I suggest that prayer for guidance and illumination by God is the best route to take for all of us. And I do love you, and do not want to let that love be destroyed by the curse of division of the Body of Christ. Pray or don’t pray…research or don’t research…this is in your hands now.
My questions to my SDA brothers and sisters,
- Please explain to us, or at least to me, what Jesus means in John 6 when he tells his diciples that unless they eat his flesh and drink his blood they will not enter into eternal life? I asked this question earlier and cannot find the answer in this thread. So if it has already been answered, please refer me to the post number.
- When I was a Seventh-day Adventist, I believed that when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, He sent His Holy Spirit to live in me and make me one with Him. I believed then, and believe now, that this indwelling of the Holy Spirit sent to me as a believer is real and literal, and NOT a symbol. My question to you as SDAs is, do you believe that the Holy Spirit in you is real and literal…or…is it merely symbolic? And what are your proofs for believing one way or the other?
I ask my Catholic brothers and sisters to rest a while on this thread and wait patiently with listening ears for these replies.
I love all of you and have no doubts that you all love and are IN Jesus…please let us rejoice in that!!
God bless you all,
Patrick Murebil
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
A
adventistnomore
Guest
This would make it so that all bread is a symbol of Christ’s body, which is wrong. Adventists do not treat all bread the way they do communion (e.g., burying the communion bread when too much is leftover). Clearly, they recognize the difference; at some point, the bread and wine become symbolic of the body and blood of Christ, and are thereafter treated differently. That change occurs at the communion service; Adventists have an event of consecration where the bread acquires that new significance as the body of Christ. So please, as a former Adventist, I ask you: don’t make statements that make no sense within Adventist practice either.
If that last one was an indication, they will hardly “disprove” anything. Just saying, lol.
That’s valid.
All discussions of the Catholic Eucharist will speak of the “signs” of bread and wine, through which the body and blood of Christ manifests itself. Obviously, Catholics recognize the “sign” or “symbolic” value of the bread and wine (e.g., wine is a red liquid like blood). That “sign” value points to the inner mystery: the “wine” actually is the body of Christ.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Thank you Adventistnomore…that is an excellent point, and one which I had forgotten. While never participating in either the consecration or burial of the communion bread in the SDA chruch, I remember now the ladies in my home church taking the consecrated bread out to bury.
Do you know of any other Protestant churches that have similar rituals surrounding the communion bread, or is that particular to the SDA church?
That is an amazing fact, thanks for pointing it out!
M
mercygate
Guest
This is most interesting to me. As you know, Catholics and Episcopalians have a sacrarium – a sink that flows directly into the earth and does not connect to a sewer system – for cleansing the sacred vessels. Although we consume the consecrated hosts and do not bury them, all washing liquid goes to the earth. We bury other sacramentals, however, and do not just toss them in the trash.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
No, I did not know about the sacrarium, but that makes sense to me. What are the other sacramentals that we bury?
M
mercygate
Guest
Rosaries, vestments. Blessed objects no longer fit for use.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
M
mercygate
Guest
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
R
Richard_Kastner
Guest
I’m sorry lost track of this thread for awhile. Seems as tho my post has caused somewhat of a stir.
Jimmy B I’m not quite sure what you mean when you call what I said “man made, fabricated, Protestant, anti-Catholic myth”. My source was the bible, but I did use the King James Bible. So here it is again from the Douay Rheims or Catholic Bible. I left the first commandment in place so you can see that this is indeed the second commandment. It also has a little addendum that explains “A graven thing, nor the likeness of anything”.
Exodus20
1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
4 “A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing”… All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. .
Now the dictionary defines blasphemy as claiming the attributes of God. The Catholic church teaches that at some point during the mass when the preist who by the way is a sinner, utters the words of consecration the host magically turns into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. The preist then holds this host up for all the people to worship. Is this not blasphemy? Is this not against the second commandment? If not please show me were i’m wrong.
In Christ Richard
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Here is where you are wrong, the host turns into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ - it IS Jesus. Jesus IS God. The priest then holds Jesus up for all the people to worship. The second commandment does not forbid worshipping God.
- Status