Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Richard_Kastner]

Here is where you are wrong, the host turns into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ - it IS Jesus. Jesus IS God. The priest then holds Jesus up for all the people to worship. The second commandment does not forbid worshipping God.

Ok, Marsha let’s take this slowly so we both understand each other. Here is the second commandment again.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
Now is not the host a graven thing, made by the hand of man. Is not Jesus in heaven. If you can answer in the affirmative to these questions. Then you must by all the rules of logic and common sense see that the Catholic mass is in violation of the second commandment. I know that this is hard to accept but if you study this carefully and in depth I don’t beleive you can come to any other conclusion

In Christ Richard

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;3934119:

Without presuming to speak for the SDAs on this, I would suggest that burying the bread left over from the Lord’s Supper would demonstrate the same thinking that lies behind burying worn out flags. Since SDAs do not believe it IS the Body of Christ but only a symbol of it, they do not reserve it in a tabernacle but they bury it so that it will not subsequently be put to common use or disrespectfully tossed into the trash.

Patrick? P-101? Am I on the right page here?

It would be interesting to know how SDA would consider the body of Jesus symbolized in the bread, and what it is at their communion service that they do different that makes the bread any closer to the symbol of the body of Jesus before their communion service began, inorder to bury the left over. In other words what makes their communion bread any closer to symbolize the body of Jesus than any other bread?

If they respect this communion bread as such to bury the left over, What sort of reverence would they call this? sacramental? idol worship? memorial of the death of Jesus? or other?

Peace

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Ok, Marsha let’s take this slowly so we both understand each other. Here is the second commandment again.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
Now is not the host a graven thing, made by the hand of man. Is not Jesus in heaven. If you can answer in the affirmative to these questions. Then you must by all the rules of logic and common sense see that the Catholic mass is in violation of the second commandment. I know that this is hard to accept but if you study this carefully and in depth I don’t beleive you can come to any other conclusion

In Christ Richard

No, the host is NOT a graven thing, made by the hand of man. It IS Jesus.

Jesus is here upon the altar. He is the Eucharist. He is also in Heaven.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Ok, Marsha let’s take this slowly so we both understand each other. Here is the second commandment again.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
Now is not the host a graven thing, made by the hand of man. Is not Jesus in heaven. If you can answer in the affirmative to these questions. Then you must by all the rules of logic and common sense see that the Catholic mass is in violation of the second commandment. I know that this is hard to accept but if you study this carefully and in depth I don’t beleive you can come to any other conclusion

In Christ Richard

Actually it is not very hard to accept at all for a Catholic. If one can grasp the difference between the Natural and the Spirit.For one the Mass does not violate any of the 10 commandments. If anything the Mass fulfills them in their entirety. For everything the Word of God written on stone (10 commandments) commands of man not to do in order not to violate the covenant with God, so as to duplicate the worship with heaven to God, the Mass graduates the man from the Natural Law of God, to Particpate In the Heavenly worship with angels and saints on earth in the Word of God made flesh, in the Spirit of the Law that supersedes the Natural Law. For the Natural Law demands a death, whereas the Spirit of the Law gives Life eternal. I know this may require deep reflection and or explanation, but one cannot exhaust the mysteries of the God in the Mass or his Eucharist.

What needs to be clarified here, is the difference between what is of the Natural dies, and what is of the Spirit is eternal.

To raise ones faith into the mysteries of God, this takes an act of God. And God acts through his Sacraments. So What is presumed to be made by the hand of man is not correct by any standards according to the Word of God. It is by the Word of God himself that the bread and wine “is the body and blood of Jesus Christ”. The host is not a graven image period. When God told Moses to speak to the Rock, for it to give water to his people in the desert, Did Moses worship the Rock? When God told Moses to put a bronzed serpent on a pole for all who look at it may be healed. Did Moses worship the serpent?

What God calls holy is holy, What God makes holy, is holy. So your claim to call the Host an idol, goes against the Word of God himself, who commands the bread and wine to be his body and blood, so that you and I may have eternal Life, but we have to have faith to eat his body and drink his blood, according to the commandments of the Word of God made flesh, Jesus himself.

So the Church does not make anything with her hands, she is just the instrument by which God communicates his new covenant for all humanity, in order to rest (have communion) in God. Catholics dont believe in a symbolic Jesus in the bread and wine, this is a form of idolatry, The Eucharist is Jesus made present body, blood, soul and divinity. The Mass is the liturgy of the Word of God, and the Liturgy of the Lamb of God Uniting the one body of Jesus Christ both in heaven and on earth, when God is all and in all. The Mass is where the communion of saints in heaven and on earth participate (not duplicate ) along with the heavenly choirs of angels who never stop exclaiming Holy,Holy,Holy Lord…It is here where God makes the eternal present for his body (the Catholic church) on earth, through his Glorious Son Jesus Christ our savior. You can get a glimpse of the liturgies in heaven through the book of Revelation, and then visit a Mass and see the book of Revelation come to life.

So I have to respectfully disagree with you, if you take a natural view of the Word of God, yes I can see how it may appear to one in the natural contrary to the Law, But God cannot deceive nor be decieved. What I speak to you are of the Spirit which is eternal, describing spiritual realities. No one cannot repeat that which is eternal. This is the confusion of the sacrifice of the Mass. It is not repeated, the eternal sacrifice is made present for all ages to be given eternal life who will not walk away from Jesus the bread of life. So the Host (Jesus present) is not idol worship, because for one, it is not made by human hands, it is made by the Word of God, secondly, The Eucharist (body of Jesus Christ) is not a likeness of Jesus in heaven, the Eucharist is Jesus present body, blood, soul and divinity, lifted up for all to see, for Scripture states, "when you see the son of man lifted up, then you will know that “I AM” . This lifting up of Jesus is fulfilled in every Mass. Amen

The Hebrew scriptures will confirm what I just said,

Hebrew 11:1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. 2 Because of it the ancients were well attested. 3** By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible…6 But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
**

Hebrew 9:23 Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. 24 **For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. **25 Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; 26 if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. **But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages 19 to take away sin by his sacrifice. 27 **Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
28
so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, 20 will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.

Hebrews 10:19 **Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary
20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, **21 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,” 22 **let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. 23 Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope, for he who made the promise is trustworthy. **

Hebrew 12;22 No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, 23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently 7 than that of Abel. 25 **See that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much more in our case if we turn away from the one who warns from heaven. **

2Corinthians 5:7
for we walk by faith, not by sight.

Peace.

 

[fbl9]

hi Richard how did you come up with the second commandment being “thou shalt not make …”?

 

[mercygate]

I’m sorry lost track of this thread for awhile. Seems as tho my post has caused somewhat of a stir.

Jimmy B I’m not quite sure what you mean when you call what I said “man made, fabricated, Protestant, anti-Catholic myth”. My source was the bible, but I did use the King James Bible. So here it is again from the Douay Rheims or Catholic Bible. I left the first commandment in place so you can see that this is indeed the second commandment. It also has a little addendum that explains “A graven thing, nor the likeness of anything”.
Exodus20
1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

4 “A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing”… All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. .

The commandment forbids making images to be worshiped as Gods. As you know, Catholics do not worship images, nor do we “make them to ourselves” (in the words of the commandment) for the purpose of worship. Images are used as devotional reminders of the saints, whose lives in their own particular and unique way, “imaged” the life of Christ.

Now the dictionary defines blasphemy as claiming the attributes of God. The Catholic church teaches that at some point during the mass when the preist who by the way is a sinner,

Everybody is a sinner. The Apostles were sinners. This has absolutely no bearing on the sacramental efficacy of a Priest’s mnistry.

. . . utters the words of consecration the host** magically turns into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.**

Magically? There is no magic. This is not a flim-flam show or a “trick.”

The preist then holds this host up for all the people to worship. Is this not blasphemy? Is this not against the second commandment? If not please show me were i’m wrong.

In Christ Richard

If Our Lord commanded us to “do this in memory of me” then we DO it. The word “memory” is often a source of confusion for people who do not understand it. The quality of remembrance in the Jewish world from which this concept arose entails actually making a thing present here and now. The Eucharistic Presence of Christ is a sacred mystery, instuted by Christ Himself. It is not “blasphemy” to worship Christ under the form of His Eucharistic presence.

 

[VWcrazy]

The preist then holds this host up for all the people to worship. Is this not blasphemy?

Wouldn’t it be blasphemy not to follow our Lord’s command to “do this in memory of me?”

 

[MrS]

Wouldn’t it be blasphemy not to follow our Lord’s command to “do this in memory of me?”

Perhaps a clarification of the word “do”

In all the times it is used in the Scriptures (one exception), it is used in the context of “offer”. And the understanding becomes clear if we translate to a more defining “offer this in memory of me…”

The exception? In Wisdom, do means do… an action with no hint of sacrifice or offering. But then, the Protestant Bibles don’t have Wisdom, so they should have no problem accepting “do” as “offer.”

 

[Richard_Kastner]

No, the host is NOT a graven thing, made by the hand of man. It IS Jesus.

Jesus is here upon the altar. He is the Eucharist. He is also in Heaven.

I happen to live not far from the convent were hosts are made and I can assure you they are made by the hands of nuns (mankind). And before they are consecrated even a Catholic would say they are not Jesus. So the Catholic church teaches that the substance of the host is changed at some point in the mass(transsubstantiation). What I am saying is this is against what God tells us in His word 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

In Christ Richard

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I happen to live not far from the convent were hosts are made and I can assure you they are made by the hands of nuns (mankind). And before they are consecrated even a Catholic would say they are not Jesus. So the Catholic church teaches that the substance of the host is changed at some point in the mass(transsubstantiation). What I am saying is this is against what God tells us in His word 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

In Christ Richard

Hi Richard my brother,

I know what you believe based on the verses above. I would like to know what your thoughts are regarding the two questions I posed on Post #107 on page 8 of this thread. If you would share your thoughts regarding those two questions, I for one would be deeply appreciative!!!

Thanks!!

God bless you all!!!

Patrick Murebil

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I happen to live not far from the convent were hosts are made and I can assure you they are made by the hands of nuns (mankind). And before they are consecrated even a Catholic would say they are not Jesus. So the Catholic church teaches that the substance of the host is changed at some point in the mass(transsubstantiation). What I am saying is this is against what God tells us in His word 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

In Christ Richard

The consecrated Host is not man made, it is God. We are told to worship God and so we do.

 

[adventistnomore]

Richard,

If we believed the Eucharist was just bread, then you’d be right. But we worship it precisely because we believe it is no longer bread.

It is Christ, come to us.

Hugo

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I happen to live not far from the convent were hosts are made and I can assure you they are made by the hands of nuns (mankind). And before they are consecrated even a Catholic would say they are not Jesus. So the Catholic church teaches that the substance of the host is changed at some point in the mass(transsubstantiation). What I am saying is this is against what God tells us in His word 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

In Christ Richard

This is the stumbling block, when one tries to fit the natural thinking logic into the spiritual realities. Consider the human being; Man was created from dust and water. So logically you are dirt and water. What was it that created mans body from dirt and water? God’s Word. Then God breathed into man, and gave him life, not from dirt or water did man recieve life, but by the Spirit of God’s breath, man lives. So here we have the basic understanding of the Incarnation, where the divine (Word of God) becomes flesh, according to the creation Word of God.

The bread from the old covenant, including wine was used in the liturgies of the old covenant including a lamb. Jesus takes these old covenant signs, and perfects them never abolishing the law, but fulfilling the law according to his new covenant in his body and blood.

Now Jesus, not man, takes the bread and speaks his word, Just like God did in Genesis when God created all that exists, with his Word, but at the fufilment of time, the Word became flesh. Jesus the Word of God made flesh states “Take eat this bread which is my body which will be given up for you” Take this wine, this is my blood, drink it, in the new and everlasting covenant". God begins a new creation week in his body and blood sacrifice, completing the old covenant in his death, resting the old covenant on the Sabbath. Resurrecting on the eigth day (“Sunday”) rising from the 7th day sabbath rest, to begin a new covenant in Jesus, and a new beginning on the first day of a new creation week. To which all who believe and are baptised are a new creation in Jesus Christ our savior.

Jesus institutes His Eucharist at the last Supper during the passover. Just as God instituted the lamb sacrifice meal to Moses during the old covenant passover, in the form of a Lamb, bread, and libation of wine.

What one must keep in mind here, is that in both occasions, this sacred meal is to be a perpetual ordinance by all, and they must consume the sacrifice. Jesus states, Take this bread (my body) and eat it, likewise the cup of blessing, Take and drink, for this is my blood which will be given up for you in the new and everlasting covenant, “Do this in memory of me” another words, Jesus is stating make me present to my people each time you proclaim my death until I return.

This applies to the power Jesus gave Peter and the apostles, to forgive sins, and the authority to bind and loose on earth, and Jesus will bind and loose in heaven. Heaven and earth participate through our mediator Jesus in the worship to our heavenly Father in Heaven. This is just one aspect of the Mass taking place on earth with the heavens.

Sacrament: a visible sign instituted by Jesus to part Grace to the believer. Eucharist is called the blessed sacrament in the body of Jesus Christ, his holy Catholic church.

IF God can take dirt and water and create you and me just at the whisper of his Word. I could never doubt that God can take bread, and wine, by his Word, and make himself present to all who believe in his Word, and obey his command to take and eat, and drink. This is believed by the Apostles themselves, and every Christian since the apostles for the first 1500 years after the resurrection, and is still believed and practiced by the Catholic church these 2000 years. Would you dare label Jesus, and his apostles Idolators? would you dare label St.'s Paul, Ignatius, Jerome, Augustine, Thomas Aquainus, and every Christian in between these last 2 thousand years Idolators? This is something to consider, including when and where your founders began teaching this anti-christian message. It has not been that long.

Peace be with you

 

[Richard_Kastner]

My questions to my SDA brothers and sisters,

1. Please explain to us, or at least to me, what Jesus means in John 6 when he tells his diciples that unless they eat his flesh and drink his blood they will not enter into eternal life? I asked this question earlier and cannot find the answer in this thread. So if it has already been answered, please refer me to the post number.
2. When I was a Seventh-day Adventist, I believed that when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, He sent His Holy Spirit to live in me and make me one with Him. I believed then, and believe now, that this indwelling of the Holy Spirit sent to me as a believer is real and literal, and NOT a symbol. My question to you as SDAs is, do you believe that the Holy Spirit in you is real and literal…or…is it merely symbolic? And what are your proofs for believing one way or the other?

Thank you!! I do honestly and sincerely appreciate you taking the time to answer these two questions!

God bless you all,
Patrick Murebil

Let me try to answer what I can of your second question first. I do BELEIVE that the Holy Spirit dwells within me. I have felt his presence many times. His presence and enlightenment actually lead me to the front door of the Seventh Day Adventist church in my town. But that’s another story.
As for the second part of your question. What are the “proofs for beleiving one way or the other”? That is an oxymoron. There is absolutely no reason to prove either to yourself or to anyone else something you take on faith. If you thought you had to it wouldn’t be faith would it.

The answer to your first question may lead to some spiritual enlightenment if you will allow it, but you must see with spiritual discernment. John 6 is one of my favorite chapters in the bible. It begins with Jesus feeding the multitude. After that the disciples head across the sea of Galilee by boat. Jesus goes up into the mountans to pray. He then meets his disciples on the other side. A feat that is totally impossible if you are not Jesus. Here we pick up the story.
25And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

When Jesus says meat in vs. 27 He is refering to the loaves of bread with which He fed the multitude earlier in the chapter. It is very important that we get what Jesus is saying in vs 27 What exactly is the “meat which endureth unto everlasting life”? It says the son of man will give us this meat. Vss 28&29 talk about faith. Vs 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Here they ask for proof so that they may beleive. Sort of like what you asked in your second question isn’t it Pat. Then Jesus goes into a dialog on bread. Vs 35 says 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. What exactly is it about Jesus that we beleive? Jumping ahead to vs 48-5148I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
In vs 51 Jesus calls the bread that He will give His flesh
And again in vs 53 a little more strongly53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.What is Jesus really saying here. Lets go to John1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. and John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. So when Jesus talks of eating His flesh. He is talking of His words John 645It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. The flesh that Jesus talks about is his word. We must eat the word of the son of man (the bible)in order to have life in us.

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The consecrated Host is not man made, it is God. We are told to worship God and so we do.

Ok, Now we are getting somewhere. So you do admit that the unconsecrated host is a man made thing. Lets look at God’s commamdment once again. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: God tells us not to take any man made thing (unconsecrated host) and make a likeness of ANY THING that is in heaven to bow down before it (suposedly Jesus in the consecrated host). The whole idea of the mass is based on a misunderstanding of what Jesus means by bread. If you read my post to Patrick. I try to explain what Jesus means by bread. I think that may help.

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

If we believed the Eucharist was just bread, then you’d be right. But we worship it precisely because we believe it is no longer bread.

It is Christ, come to us.

Hugo

This is missing the point of what I am saying. The so-called eucarist is just bread before the consecration. What I am saying is that the process whereby the bread of the host supposedly becomes the body of Christ, in the mass, is a false process and is expressly in contradiction to the clear word of Almighty God.

4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

hi Richard how did you come up with the second commandment being “thou shalt not make …”?

I read it in the word of God. But you don’t have to take my word for it.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
I know that this is the second because it comes after the first.

In Christ Richard

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Ok, Now we are getting somewhere. So you do admit that the unconsecrated host is a man made thing. Lets look at God’s commamdment once again. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: God tells us not to take any man made thing (unconsecrated host) and make a likeness of ANY THING that is in heaven to bow down before it (suposedly Jesus in the consecrated host). The whole idea of the mass is based on a misunderstanding of what Jesus means by bread. If you read my post to Patrick. I try to explain what Jesus means by bread. I think that may help.

Richard:

In case you do not know, I was born and raised Seventh Day Adventist. I attended Andrews University, the SDA college in Berrien Springs, Michigan, where I minored in religion. Often I was asked to give the sermon at the SDA church I attended, and I taught religion class at the church school and worked as a colporter.

That being said, a thorough study of John 6 shows that Jesus was not referring to either His spoken word or the written word when he said “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” For years I have seen SDAs try to torture John 6 into a metaphoric interpretation, but it doesn’t work. Jesus gave literal proof that he was speaking literally not metaphorically.

Proof 1: verse 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Did Jesus literally come down from heaven? Yes.
Therefore He is literally the living bread which we are instructed to eat.

Did Jesus literally give His flesh for the life of the world? Yes, therefore the bread that He gives us is litterally

Proof 2: verses 60-62 Many therefore of his disciples when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying, who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Did Jesus literally ascend up to where He was before? Yes.
Did His disciples literally see the Son of man ascend? Yes.

Now why would Jesus’ disciples find an injunction to study His word to be a hard saying? Why would it offend them? It would be an easy enough task to assure never being hungry again. They were offended because they KNEW Jesus meant that they were to literally eat His flesh, and Jesus provided a literal proof for it.

You quote John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And then you say, "So when Jesus talks of eating His flesh. He is talking of His words " But in fact, John 1:14 proves just the opposite. The Word (Jesus) was made flesh, not a book, not a sound, but flesh and blood and He tells us in John 6 that we are to eat that flesh.

verse

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The commandment forbids making images to be worshiped as Gods. As you know, Catholics do not worship images, nor do we “make them to ourselves” (in the words of the commandment) for the purpose of worship. Images are used as devotional reminders of the saints, whose lives in their own particular and unique way, “imaged” the life of Christ.

Here’s the commandment again. Sorry if i’m so insistant,but I think God is in the details. The words in the Douay Rheims bible are “graven thing”. I’m not talking about the practice of kneeling and praying before statues or other images. Thats another topic. What I am talking of here specifically is the mass.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

Mercygate:

Everybody is a sinner. The Apostles were sinners. This has absolutely no bearing on the sacramental efficacy of a Priest’s mnistry.

I’m not so sure. What I see in the mass is a man, a sinner, creating God. This makes God less than His creator, or less than a sinner. I find this extremely offensive and blasphemous.

Mercygate:

Magically? There is no magic. This is not a flim-flam show or a “trick.” If Our Lord commanded us to “do this in memory of me” then we DO it. The word “memory” is often a source of confusion for people who do not understand it. The quality of remembrance in the Jewish world from which this concept arose entails actually making a thing present here and now. The Eucharistic Presence of Christ is a sacred mystery, instuted by Christ Himself. It is not “blasphemy” to worship Christ under the form of His Eucharistic presence.

Yes He did command us to “do this in remembance of me” and I have absolutely no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the priest usurping the power of God and saying that he creates God. Can’t you see the blasphemous dicotomy of that.

In Christ Richard

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Here’s the commandment again. Sorry if i’m so insistant,but I think God is in the details. The words in the Douay Rheims bible are “graven thing”. I’m not talking about the practice of kneeling and praying before statues or other images. Thats another topic. What I am talking of here specifically is the mass.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

I’m not so sure. What I see in the mass is a man, a sinner, creating God. This makes God less than His creator, or less than a sinner. I find this extremely offensive and blasphemous.

If that is what you see in the mass, then I do not know what mass you have been attending…and you are not seeing correctly at that mass. And if you have actually read the comments on the previous posts of this thread, and the scriptures referenced, then you are not hearing what is being said. NO ONE here, other than you, has made any statements that any man, any sinner, any priest, is creating God during mass. We are accessing God, accessing Jesus’ once for all time scarifice on the cross of Calvary for the sin of all mankind, and accessing through the power of God’s Holy Spirit the ressurected body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ, that makes believers One Body…and that One Body we believers become is Jesus Christ. That is worship!! And when we are IN Jesus, nothing can seperate us from His Love…not even death!!! And that is salvation!! And that my dear brother is THE good news, is it not??

I certainly have no say over what you believe, but if you are not understanding what we are saying…well…you need to go back and read the posts of others on here (not mine because the others do a much better job of communicating this truth). Marsha Adams’ and Gabriel of 12’s posts just a few frames back explain what we believe. And then, as if you were a ventriloquist and they were your dummies, you ignore what they are saying and provide your own words and thoughts for them.

This is why I like to slow down the dialog…and you and I are working nicely at that on the other post. Take your disagreements here a little slower and one at a time and as we explain what we believe and why…address those disagreements.

I hope your first misconception that man is creating God is resolved. If not, from where, other than in your interpretation, are you receiving that message? It is certainly not from us, nor the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Yes He did command us to “do this in remembance of me” and I have absolutely no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the priest usurping the power of God and saying that he creates God. Can’t you see the blasphemous dicotomy of that.

In Christ Richard

Yes He did say “do this in rememberance of me” He also said “This IS MY body”, “This IS MY blood”. Pretty clear statement if you ask me. He held up each of the elements, bread and wine, and said that they were Him.

You can go back and look at Post #72 where I tried to show how this statement is different from the figurative statements of Jesus.

God bless you all!!