Amazing Facts bible study guide

[MarysRoses]

Let me try to answer what I can of your second question first. I do BELEIVE that the Holy Spirit dwells within me. I have felt his presence many times. His presence and enlightenment actually lead me to the front door of the Seventh Day Adventist church in my town. But that’s another story.
As for the second part of your question. What are the “proofs for beleiving one way or the other”? That is an oxymoron. There is absolutely no reason to prove either to yourself or to anyone else something you take on faith. If you thought you had to it wouldn’t be faith would it.

This is why any discussion should be conducted with care and charity. I often tell my evangelical friends “I believe the bible too, we just don’t interpret it the same way” That said, there are some reasonable ways to arrive at conclusions, and some questionable ones. I don’t challenge people’s right to have their own opinions, but I reserve the right to challenge those opinions when they put them into a forum such as this for discussion.

The answer to your first question may lead to some spiritual enlightenment if you will allow it, but you must see with spiritual discernment. John 6 is one of my favorite chapters in the bible. It begins with Jesus feeding the multitude. After that the disciples head across the sea of Galilee by boat. Jesus goes up into the mountans to pray. He then meets his disciples on the other side. A feat that is totally impossible if you are not Jesus. Here we pick up the story.
25And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

For those not used to the KJV, meat is food. Ordinary food spoils and goes bad… but Jesus is offering food which will not spoil.

When Jesus says meat in vs. 27 He is refering to the loaves of bread with which He fed the multitude earlier in the chapter. It is very important that we get what Jesus is saying in vs 27 What exactly is the “meat which endureth unto everlasting life”? It says the son of man will give us this meat.

Yes, Identifying this spiritual food is critically important

Vss 28&29 talk about faith.

You didn’t paste these verses, but I will. They set up the context for the verses following them:

**28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.**

They are asking what work, what task should they do. This is a work. I think that is important and should not be left out.
Belief isn’t a feeling, it is an action.

Vs 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Here they ask for proof so that they may beleive.

Actually, they ask for a bit more than a mere proof. They ask “what dost thou work?” or in 21st century English, what will you do? Again, its not an abstract, they are asking him what will he DO.

Sort of like what you asked in your second question isn’t it Pat. Then Jesus goes into a dialog on bread. Vs 35 says 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. What exactly is it about Jesus that we beleive? Jumping ahead to vs 48-5148I am that bread of life.

Actually, if we are to discern what Jesus will DO in order that we might have faith, we need to not skip ahead…

** 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. **

Many see him and still do not believe… But Jesus is here to do the Father’s will. It is critical to note, Jesus came down from heaven.

**
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
**
Everyone that sees the son, and believes on Him, will have everlasting life. If Jesus did not intend a special way he could be truly with us… how can we ‘see’ him?

** 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. **

Notice, Jesus said “I AM” the bread that came down from heaven.

Jesus said he is the one who came down from heaven.

Jesus said the HE is the bread that came down from heaven.

As an aside here, bread was very important in the religious tales and stories told by the Jewish people at this time. The manna in the desert found its way into their stories as the heavenly food. John identifies Jesus as the heavenly food.

** 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. **

Clearly what Jesus was telling the crowd was unheard of before.
It upset them. Jesus continues:

**45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48I am that bread of life. **

Jesus makes it perfectly plain… Jesus is the bread of life. The living food that comes down from Heaven.

(Cont. in next post… )

 

[mercygate]

Here’s the commandment again. Sorry if i’m so insistant,but I think God is in the details. The words in the Douay Rheims bible are “graven thing”. I’m not talking about the practice of kneeling and praying before statues or other images. Thats another topic. What I am talking of here specifically is the mass.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

So what do YOU use in celebrating the Lord’s supper? Bread? Made by man? Are you objecting to the fact that the Eucharistic wafer may have a cross stamped on it? Sometimes the larger ones just have lines pressed into them so that they will break cleanly into small pieces.

The phrase “make to thyself” refers to creating an image to be worshiped as God. We do not worship bread. We do not worship bread.

I’m not so sure. What I see in the mass is a man, a sinner, creating God. This makes God less than His creator, or less than a sinner. I find this extremely offensive and blasphemous.

A sinner “creating God”? No. That sinner invokes the Holy Spirit, who makes present the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Why do you find it blasphemous that a sinner should be appointed for this office? Why is it blasphemous that a sinner follows Our Lord’s command to DO this! Why is it blasphemous that Our Lord chooses to be fully present to sinners? The problem of whether sacraments were invalidated by the sinfulness of the minister was settled in the 4th century in response to the Donatist heresy. Old heresies, apparently, never die.

Yes He did command us to “do this in remembance of me” and I have absolutely no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the priest usurping the power of God and saying that he creates God. Can’t you see the blasphemous dicotomy of that.

In Christ Richard

If we thought the Priest were “creating God” it would not only be blasphemous it would be unspeakably stupid. But the Priest does not “create God.” The Holy Spirit makes the Lord present under the formof Bread. The bread no longer exists in substance (as distinguished from the form). It “IS” the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It is not a “graven image.”

 

[MarysRoses]

(Cont. from previous post)

49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
In vs 51 Jesus calls the bread that He will give His flesh
And again in vs 53 a little more strongly53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.What is Jesus really saying here. Lets go to John1:1

I will be happy to go to John 1:1, but lets give Jesus a chance to finish telling us what he is saying first.

** 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. **

Jesus expands on what he said earlier… His flesh is food indeed , his blood is drink indeed. This is King James English for it is real … Some translations say true food and true drink, such as the NIV: “ 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”

The greek word for real is the same root as the word for truth… concrete reality, not a euphemism. … so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me… That is a pretty graphic description.

** 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
**

I think this is a question we need to ask ourselves. Does Jesus offend us when he says we are to eat his flesh and drink his blood? Would the crowd have murmured and been offended if Jesus was telling them to read scripture?

How did Jesus react to their offense?

** 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?**

Some would try to say this verse (63) contradicts what came before… That the flesh does nothing, so Jesus is speaking symbolically. Jesus, however, made some pretty strong statements, that if we did not eat his flesh we would not have life in us. People left him over his statements. It wouldn’t make sense that Jesus did not call them back and clarify if that is what he is saying if he was speaking symbolically about the scriptures. However, we must be born of the Spirit, to understand the things of God. Jesus’ words give spirit and life to those who hear and believe. We are not prepared to enter into this life by our fleshly, earthly birth, but by our spiritual rebirth. Only in the spirit can we understand and believe the hard things Jesus is teaching us, not by our flesh.

Now we can go on to John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. and John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You skipped from 1:1 to 1:14. Lets go through this passage a bit more in detail:

***1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
*2The same was in the beginning with God.
*3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
*4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. **

So the Word, was God, and has always been with God. Nothing that was made was without the Word.
In him (this Word) was life. This Word is a person. This Word was God. This Word is light and life to men.

***6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
*7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
*8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. **

John the Baptizer came to bear witness to this Light, which is the Word, which is God.

***9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
*10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
*11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
*12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
*13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
*14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
**

So the Word came, and it was true Light… He made the world, but the world didn’t know him. His own didn’t receive him…. But to those who believed He gave them power to become the Sons of God.
They are born not of the flesh, but of God. Again, flesh in this sense refering to our natural, earthly birth.

**And 14:
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. **

The Word became flesh and lived among us, full of grace and truth.

The Word is a person. The Word is God. The Word is Light. The verses between verse 1 and verse 14 make it very clear that John is talking about a person, and not just any person, but God.

So when Jesus talks of eating His flesh. He is talking of His words John 645It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. The flesh that Jesus talks about is his word. We must eat the word of the son of man (the bible)in order to have life in us

You previously skipped this verse, 6:45 In context Jesus is talking about the Father drawing men to him:

**
*44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
*45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
**

No one is questioning that the scriptures draw us to Christ.

But is the Bread of life the scriptures? Continuing on after verse 45:

***46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
*47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
*48I am that bread of life.
*49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
*50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
**

Again, the Bread of Life is a person. That person came down from heaven. The stories of the manna are in the scriptures. Those who ate the manna are dead. The scriptures draw us to Christ, but life is in Christ. Christ is our food and drink. Don’t mistake the messenger for the message!

Or did Paul make a mistake?
**
1 Corinthians 11:28-30*(King James Version)

*28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
*29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
*30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
**

We are to discern the Lord’s body and not partake unworthily.

We must eat the word of the son of man (the bible)in order to have life in us

The verses you have given seem an inadequate defense of this statement. By omitting verses in the middle of a passage, and by an abrupt switch to another book entirely… The original context is lost. When I was transitioning from being Adventist to being Catholic, one thing that impressed upon me heavily was the difference in which scripture is presented at worship. In the Adventist sermon, a few texts are referred too, often from various places in scripture. The pastor then preaches on them, drawing various interpretations and illustrations to tie them together.

At the Liturgy of the Word at mass, entire passages from the old and new are read without interruption. The Psalms are sung (recited if there is no music). The Gospel is then proclaimed and reverenced by the entire congregation standing as again, an entire passage is read without interruption. Only then does the priest give a homily on the readings. Hearing scripture read this way opens up so much deeper understanding.

God Bless,
MarysRoses

 

[MrS]

Nice job, MarysRoses

Concise, organized, direct, fair/balanced, and charitable.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is missing the point of what I am saying. The so-called eucarist is just bread before the consecration. What I am saying is that the process whereby the bread of the host supposedly becomes the body of Christ, in the mass, is a false process and is expressly in contradiction to the clear word of Almighty God.

4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

In Christ Richard

So you think because Catholics follow Jesus commands to take bread and the cup of blessing, is an act of Idolatry? Because they are simple bread and wine made from the hands of man. And this is in direct contradiction to the Word of God?

So because you wrongly imply we worship bread on earth, to resemble a bread in heaven, this is idolatry? Which you imply is a false process?

Listen to Jesus himself what he does with the bread and the cup of blessing (wine). When he takes the old passover sacrificial lamb (which is Jesus himself), unleavened bread (and makes his body present), Libation of wine (his blood poured out). and makes them fulfilled in himself, and renews a covenant between man and God through our mediator Jesus Christ.

Mathew 26:26
14 15 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat;** this is my body.” **
27
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
29
17 I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

Jesus just fulfilled the old covenant passover, that is why Jesus states he will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine (old covenant) until when I drink it with you NEW in the kingdom of my Father. Jesus just instituted the Mass celebration, ordained his earthly priesthood, to “Do this in memory of me”. Jesus makes the Eucharist anew in the kingdom of God, where in the Mass we celebrate the wedding feast of the lamb, this is where Jesus drinks the new passover from death into life with all those who believe and eat his flesh and drink his blood, to live and rest in God eternallly.

Here is the Mass celebrated with heaven on earth:

Revelations 18:5
2 A voice coming from the throne said: “Praise our God, all you his servants, (and) you who revere him, small and great.”
6
Then I heard something like the sound of a great multitude or the sound of rushing water or mighty peals of thunder, as they said: "Alleluia! The Lord has established his reign, (our) God, the almighty.

(This Alleluia is sung at every Sunday Mass throughtout the world from sun up to sun down)
7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory**. For the wedding day of the Lamb 3 has come, his bride has made herself ready.**
8
She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.) 4
9
**Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed 5 are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These words are true; they come from God.” **10
I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers who bear witness to Jesus. Worship God. Witness to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." 6

Here is the great evangelist Paul, passing on the Tradition of the Eucharist, and announcing a curse to those who do not discern the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist:

1Corinthians 11:23
11 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, **“This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” **25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, **“This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” **26
**For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. **

(Now here comes the curse

27
**Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 12
28
A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself.
30
That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. **

If Jesus and Paul believe in the true presence of Jesus body and blood in the Eucharist (bread and wine) with a promise to have eternal life by the Word of God himself, and then a curse to those who do not discern the body and blood of Jesus present in his Eucharist are cursed.

peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont.

Revelation 2:17
" ‘“Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.** To the victor I shall give some of the hidden manna; **15 I shall also give a white amulet upon which is inscribed a new name, which no one knows except the one who receives it.”’

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my message of endurance, 7 I will keep you safe in the time of trial that is going to come to the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
11
**I am coming quickly. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown. 12
" '"The victor I will make into a pillar 8 in the temple of my God, and he will never leave it again. On him I will inscribe the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, as well as my new name. **13
" ‘“Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

Revelations 3:19
Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest, therefore, and repent.
20
" '“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then)** I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me. 15 **21
I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne.
22
" ‘“Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Revelations 21:1
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2
2
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, 3 coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3
I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, **“Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people 4 and God himself will always be with them (as their God). **4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, (for) the old order has passed away.”
5
**The one who sat on the throne 5 said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” 6
He said to me, "They are accomplished. 6 I (am) the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. **To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.

The Mass is the eternal fulfillment action taken place in time, with the lamb as if slain (Jesus sacrificial body and blood in the Euchaarist made present not only before God’s throne, but to all his body on earth so as to enter into eternal life through Jesus himself, by consuming his Eucharist.

Peace be with you

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard:
That being said, a thorough study of John 6 shows that Jesus was not referring to either His spoken word or the written word when he said “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” For years I have seen SDAs try to torture John 6 into a metaphoric interpretation, but it doesn’t work. Jesus gave literal proof that he was speaking literally not metaphorically.

Proof 1: verse 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Did Jesus literally come down from heaven? Yes.
Therefore He is literally the living bread which we are instructed to eat.

Did Jesus literally give His flesh for the life of the world? Yes, therefore the bread that He gives us is litterally .

I’m assuming that last word is literal. Not literally a word, but the word literal. I’m sorry. Couldn’t resist. I don’t see how this is a proof that Jesus was not talking metaphorically. In fact in that very quote you use, doesn’t Jesus say “and the bread which I will give is my flesh.” Jesus flesh is not literally bread. So the very text that you use to “prove” that He was speaking literally, proves that He was speaking metaphorically
Marsha Adams:

Proof 2: verses 60-62 Many therefore of his disciples when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying, who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Did Jesus literally ascend up to where He was before? Yes.
Did His disciples literally see the Son of man ascend? Yes.

Now why would Jesus’ disciples find an injunction to study His word to be a hard saying? Why would it offend them? It would be an easy enough task to assure never being hungry again. They were offended because they KNEW Jesus meant that they were to literally eat His flesh, and Jesus provided a literal proof for it.

The two statewments after your bible vs. I totally agree with.

You have to remember that Jesus was talking to a large multitude. All of which are refered to as disciples. They took this as a hard saying because they mistakenly took it literally. He tries to straighten them out in vs.63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.(emphasis mine) It apparently didn’t work because vs.66 says From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. This is the great multitude that followed Him. Not the twelve because vs 67says: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? The clincher is vs 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the WORDS of eternal life. (emphasis mine) The multitude of His disciples just didn’t get the fact that he was talking metaphorically. Jesus knew, the twelve knew, that He was talking about His WORDS.
Marsha Adams:

You quote John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And then you say, "So when Jesus talks of eating His flesh. He is talking of His words " But in fact, John 1:14 proves just the opposite. The Word (Jesus) was made flesh, not a book, not a sound, but flesh and blood and He tells us in John 6 that we are to eat that flesh.

51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh(word), which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh(word) to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh(word) of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh(word), and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh(word) is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh(word), and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Here is John 6:51-56 with the word, word in paretheses next to flesh. doesn’t it fit beautifully.
and some others.
Matt4:4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
36And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
Jesus always gave the loaves to His disciples first and they gave it to the people. Symbolic of the way in which the word was given first to the apostles then to the people.
Matthew 16:11-12How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
These verses show that the bread of the Pharisees is their doctrine or words.
All this being said it still takes faith and the discernment that only the Spirit of God can bring. So, Marsha I hope that you will ask God for faith and discernment to understand the truth of His word.
John 17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I hope your first misconception that man is creating God is resolved. If not, from where, other than in your interpretation, are you receiving that message? It is certainly not from us, nor the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Yes He did say “do this in rememberance of me” He also said “This IS MY body”, “This IS MY blood”. Pretty clear statement if you ask me. He held up each of the elements, bread and wine, and said that they were Him.

You can go back and look at Post #72 where I tried to show how this statement is different from the figurative statements of Jesus.

God bless you all!!

But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests - HOC EST CORPUS MEUM - God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him and as often as they call him, and places [pg. 27] himself in their hands, even though they should be be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal they move him as they please, from one place to another, they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others. “Oh, how very great is their power,” says St. Lawrence Justinian, speaking of priests. “A word falls from their lips and the body of Christ is there substantially formed from the matter of bread, and the Incarnate Word descended from heaven, is found really present on the table of the altar! Never did divine goodness give such power to the angels. The angels abide by the order of God, but the priests take him in their hands, distribute him to the faithful, and partake of him as food for themselves.”

Source: The Dignity and Duties of the Priest or Selva, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, translated from the Italian, edited by Eugene Grimm, copyright 1927 by Very Rev. James Barron, C.SS.R, pgs. 26-27.

Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, …

“The power of the priest,” says St. Bernadine of Sienna, “is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world.”

As the Word of God created heaven and earth, so, says St. Jerome, the words of the priest create Jesus Christ.

Source: Ibid, pgs. 32, 33.

---

“According to St. Ambrose, a priest, in absolving a sinner, performs the very office of the Holy Ghost in the sanctification of souls.”

“Innocent III has written: ‘Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods.’”

Source: Ibid, pg. 36.

Bishops and priests being, as they are, God’s interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.

In all ages, priests have been held in the highest honor; yet the priests of the New Testament far exceed all others. For the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of our Lord and of forgiving sins, which has been conferred on them, not only has nothing equal or like it on earth, but even surpasses human reason and understanding.

Source: The Catechism of the Council of Trent (The Roman Catechism), translated by John A McHugh, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D. and Charles J. Callan, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D., published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Copyright 1992, Rockford, Illinois, 61105, Sacrament of Holy Orders,

Power of Consecrating

The third great power of the priestly office is the climax of all. It is the power of consecrating. “No act is greater,” says saint Thomas, “than the consecration of the body of Christ.” In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself.

When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heaven, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors. It is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed, it is greater than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the blessed virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal victim for the sins of man-not once, but, a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

[pg.271] Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador and the vicegerent of Christ on earth. He continues the essential ministry of Christ - he teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ, he offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement which Christ offered on Calvary. No wonder that the name which spiritual writers are especially fond of applying to the priest is that of “alter Christus.” For the priest is and should be another Christ.

Source: Faith of Millions, by Reverend John A. O’brien, Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana, page 270, 271.

Power of Consecrating

The third great power of the priestly office is the climax of all. It is the power of consecrating. “No act is greater,” says saint Thomas, “than the consecration of the body of Christ.” In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself.

When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heaven, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors. It is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed, it is greater than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the blessed virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal victim for the sins of man-not once, but, a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

[pg.271] Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador and the vicegerent of Christ on earth. He continues the essential ministry of Christ - he teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ, he offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement which Christ offered on Calvary. No wonder that the name which spiritual writers are especially fond of applying to the priest is that of “alter Christus.” For the priest is and should be another Christ.

Source: Faith of Millions, by Reverend John A. O’brien, Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana, page 270, 271.

Power of Consecrating

The third great power of the priestly office is the climax of all. It is the power of consecrating. “No act is greater,” says saint Thomas, “than the consecration of the body of Christ.” In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself.

When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heaven, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors. It is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed, it is greater than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the blessed virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal victim for the sins of man-not once, but, a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

[pg.271] Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador and the vicegerent of Christ on earth. He continues the essential ministry of Christ - he teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ, he offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement which Christ offered on Calvary. No wonder that the name which spiritual writers are especially fond of applying to the priest is that of “alter Christus.” For the priest is and should be another Christ.

Source: Faith of Millions, by Reverend John A. O’brien, Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana, page 270, 271.
Sorry , I had to delete the first part of you post to get these quotes on the reply.I could go on and on but reading this garbage depresses me.
In Christ Richard

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests - HOC EST CORPUS MEUM - God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him and as often as they call him, and places [pg. 27] himself in their hands, even though they should be be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal they move him as they please, from one place to another, they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others. “Oh, how very great is their power,” says St. Lawrence Justinian, speaking of priests. “A word falls from their lips and the body of Christ is there substantially formed from the matter of bread, and the Incarnate Word descended from heaven, is found really present on the table of the altar! Never did divine goodness give such power to the angels. The angels abide by the order of God, but the priests take him in their hands, distribute him to the faithful, and partake of him as food for themselves.”

Source: The Dignity and Duties of the Priest or Selva, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, translated from the Italian, edited by Eugene Grimm, copyright 1927 by Very Rev. James Barron, C.SS.R, pgs. 26-27.

Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, …

“The power of the priest,” says St. Bernadine of Sienna, “is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world.”

As the Word of God created heaven and earth, so, says St. Jerome, the words of the priest create Jesus Christ.

Source: Ibid, pgs. 32, 33.

---

“According to St. Ambrose, a priest, in absolving a sinner, performs the very office of the Holy Ghost in the sanctification of souls.”

“Innocent III has written: ‘Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods.’”

Source: Ibid, pg. 36.

Bishops and priests being, as they are, God’s interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.

In all ages, priests have been held in the highest honor; yet the priests of the New Testament far exceed all others. For the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of our Lord and of forgiving sins, which has been conferred on them, not only has nothing equal or like it on earth, but even surpasses human reason and understanding.

Source: The Catechism of the Council of Trent (The Roman Catechism), translated by John A McHugh, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D. and Charles J. Callan, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D., published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Copyright 1992, Rockford, Illinois, 61105, Sacrament of Holy Orders,

Power of Consecrating

The third great power of the priestly office is the climax of all. It is the power of consecrating. “No act is greater,” says saint Thomas, “than the consecration of the body of Christ.” In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself.

When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heaven, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors. It is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed, it is greater than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the blessed virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal victim for the sins of man-not once, but, a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

[pg.271] Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador and the vicegerent of Christ on earth. He continues the essential ministry of Christ - he teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ, he offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement which Christ offered on Calvary. No wonder that the name which spiritual writers are especially fond of applying to the priest is that of “alter Christus.” For the priest is and should be another Christ.

Source: Faith of Millions, by Reverend John A. O’brien, Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana, page 270, 271.

**Your bias comments about the selected quotes you have provided, have infected the quotes your trying to give. It is confusing to determine the quotes from your misrepresentation of the quote. Could you please seperate the quote from your opinions please?

So, you really do not have a clue of why Jesus died, and why he rose from the dead? Do you think Jesus is still buried, like your symbolic bread? Your misinterpretation of scripture reveals a non belief in the spirit, and a strong belief in the flesh, which availeth nothing. IF you dont believe Jesus, then who is it that you believe in? I hope as to not offend your faith, I am only going off by what you have revealed here. I see no spiritual aspects to your theology, only carnal knowledge of the scriptures. How does the SDA faith explain life after death? The belief in the life after death, reveals your belief system in God whether or not it comes from God or man.

Peace**

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Sorry , I had to delete the first part of you post to get these quotes on the reply.I could go on and on but reading this garbage depresses me.
In Christ Richard

Richard,

Please go back and read MarysRoses two Posts #141 and #143 above…all of both of them…with the scriptures in context…and then let me know if reading that still depresses you.

 

[PaulDupre]

This is missing the point of what I am saying. The so-called eucarist is just bread before the consecration. What I am saying is that the process whereby the bread of the host supposedly becomes the body of Christ, in the mass, is a false process and is expressly in contradiction to the clear word of Almighty God.

4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

In Christ Richard

But we don’t adore the bread before it is consecrated. We only adore after it is no longer bread, but the very body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Himself. There is nothing wrong in adoring Jesus, is there?

Or are you saying that every time someone bakes a loaf of bread he is committing idolatry? A lot of bakers will be sorry to hear that.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Your bias comments about the selected quotes you have provided, have infected the quotes your trying to give. It is confusing to determine the quotes from your misrepresentation of the quote. Could you please seperate the quote from your opinions please?

So, you really do not have a clue of why Jesus died, and why he rose from the dead? Do you think Jesus is still buried, like your symbolic bread? Your misinterpretation of scripture reveals a non belief in the spirit, and a strong belief in the flesh, which availeth nothing. IF you dont believe Jesus, then who is it that you believe in? I hope as to not offend your faith, I am only going off by what you have revealed here. I see no spiritual aspects to your theology, only carnal knowledge of the scriptures. How does the SDA faith explain life after death? The belief in the life after death, reveals your belief system in God whether or not it comes from God or man.

Peace

Gabriel12
Up until now I have avoided answering your posts because I find them too hard to follow and I find you somewhat caustic in your remarks. You seem to try to divert attention from the topic at hand by regressing to personal attacks. Lets get something straight right off the bat. I have absolutely no interest in your personal opinion of me or my faith or lack thereof. I would very much appreciate it if you would keep your comments to the topic at hand and refrain from personal attacks. In fact I would appreciate it if you did not say anything about me personally and I can assure you that I will reciprocate. Then we can have an intelligent dialog in the spirit of love that is Jesus.

You start your comments by saying my biased comments have somehow infected the quotes I was trying to give. Well I did give the quotes I didn’t make them up they all have sources. Check them out for yourself. As for my little comment about them being garbage, infectig them. I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. Does that mean that my comment makes them more garbage than they already are I don’t see how that is possible. I did notice that you make no comment on the quotes themselves. Instead you try to change the subject. If you don’t have a comment about the quotes, which were in response to Patrick Murebil I guess we are through. Oh, by the way I’ll try to be more diligent in my use of the quote boxes.

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

But we don’t adore the bread before it is consecrated. We only adore after it is no longer bread, but the very body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Himself. There is nothing wrong in adoring Jesus, is there?

Or are you saying that every time someone bakes a loaf of bread he is committing idolatry? A lot of bakers will be sorry to hear that.

Ya, mister Paul Dupre I don’ know if you thought that you didn’t have to read the whole post or what. I never said that you worship the bread before consecration. It’s the PROCESS of supposedly turning it from bread to the body of Jesus that I have a problem with.

In Christ Richard

 

[MarysRoses]

Sorry , I had to delete the first part of you post to get these quotes on the reply.I could go on and on but reading this garbage depresses me.
In Christ Richard

Gabriel12
I would very much appreciate it if you would keep your comments to the topic at hand and refrain from personal attacks. In fact I would appreciate it if you did not say anything about me personally and I can assure you that I will reciprocate. Then we can have an intelligent dialog in the spirit of love that is Jesus.

Calling someone’s cherished beliefs “garbage” is hardly “intelligent dialog in the spirit of love that is Jesus”

I did notice that you make no comment on the quotes themselves. Instead you try to change the subject. If you don’t have a comment about the quotes, which were in response to Patrick Murebil I guess we are through. Oh, by the way I’ll try to be more diligent in my use of the quote boxes.

In Christ Richard

Some of the older quotes are in more flowery language than would be currently used. No one though among our Catholic posters has tried to say that the Eucharist is anything less than God himself. So why would we protest? Other than maybe to clarify the wording and intent of those passages to those not familiar with our terminology.

The Eucharist is a Mystery. We believe we receive Jesus, who is God himself in Holy Communion. Whole and entire, body, blood, soul and divinity. Jesus is our spiritual food. This is entirely biblical. The ordained priest, given the authority to consecrate through the apostolic succession held by our bishops, has a role in this miracle that is beyond human understanding. That is why it is a Mystery. The priest himself, as a person, is a sinner like all of us. God gives us this miracle out of His goodness, not because we are worthy, we can never be worthy, but because He has given us his Son as our savior. Jesus himself the night before he died gave us the gift of the Eucharist. The Apostles, and those they ordained to carry on after them, continue this gift by acting as Jesus did, in persona Christi.

The priest is not Christ, he is not sinless, but he is acting in the office doing (remember me highlighting that word DO in the sixth chapter of John?) what Christ has given him to do… making it possible for us to share in the heavenly food that Jesus ordained for us. Without Apostolic succession, without our priest who gives up many of the comforts and pleasures of an ordinary human life, we would not have Jesus in the Eucharist. That is why the office is given special reverence whatever the merit of the person fulfilling that office may be. What happens is through the power of God, the Holy Spirit is asked to come down upon the gifts made by human hands, so that they will become our spiritual food and drink. The power is from God. Yet God cooperates with humans in this miracle.

Jesus offered himself on the cross for us. He is the lamb of which all the passover lambs slain over the centuries were just a shadow of the reality. After the passover lamb was slain and offered, it was consumed by the family present at the passover meal. Christ is now our passover. We receive Him as our spiritual food. This is why the mass is referred to as a sacrifice. The once for all, perfect and eternal sacrifice is made present for us. We eat and drink the Body and Blood just as he commanded us.

Your repugnance reminds me of the Jews. They simply could not fathom that God would come to them, appearing to their senses as an ordinary man.

Jesus simply could not be God. It was blasphemous, it was outrageous! They were OFFENDED! They wanted him put to death for daring to claim that He was God

Jesus comes to us under the appearance of ordinary bread and wine. While it may still look like ordinary bread and wine, it is truly Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. This is a Mystery. Some find it outrageous, OFFENSIVE! That Jesus would offer himself to us in this way.

That doesn’t change Truth. God came to us as a little boy. That was an outrageous claim 2000 years ago. Some now find the idea that God comes to us in the Eucharist outrageous.

**13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[a] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
**1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (New International Version)

God Bless,
MarysRoses

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

Please go back and read MarysRoses two Posts #141 and #143 above…all of both of them…with the scriptures in context…and then let me know if reading that still depresses you.

I’m not sure I know what you are getting at brother. I did read those posts. They seem well put together and except for a few minor points I agree with them. Reading those posts is not what depresses me nor did I say that it did. What depresses me is the completely arrogant and blasphemous quotes that I posted. Here is an excerpt from one of your posts awhile back.
Patrick Murebil:

I hope your first misconception that man is creating God is resolved. If not, from where, other than in your interpretation, are you receiving that message? It is certainly not from us, nor the teaching of the Catholic Church.

And here is one of the quotes I posted:
Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, …

“The power of the priest,” says St. Bernadine of Sienna, “is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world.”

As the Word of God created heaven and earth, so, says St. Jerome, the words of the priest create Jesus Christ.

Source: The Dignity and Duties of the Priest or Selva, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, translated from the Italian, edited by Eugene Grimm, copyright 1927 by Very Rev. James Barron, C.SS.R, pgs. 26-27.

Source: Ibid, pgs. 32, 33.

These are not from my interpretation.These are the words of saints of the Catholic Church. There is nothing in these quotes about “accessing” the power of the Holy Spirit. There is no hint that they beleive that the transubstantiation is acomplished by any other means than by the power of the priest.
Do you beleive what this quote is saying Patrick?

In Christ Richard

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel12
Up until now I have avoided answering your posts because I find them too hard to follow and I find you somewhat caustic in your remarks. You seem to try to divert attention from the topic at hand by regressing to personal attacks. Lets get something straight right off the bat. I have absolutely no interest in your personal opinion of me or my faith or lack thereof. I would very much appreciate it if you would keep your comments to the topic at hand and refrain from personal attacks. In fact I would appreciate it if you did not say anything about me personally and I can assure you that I will reciprocate. Then we can have an intelligent dialog in the spirit of love that is Jesus.

You start your comments by saying my biased comments have somehow infected the quotes I was trying to give. Well I did give the quotes I didn’t make them up they all have sources. Check them out for yourself. As for my little comment about them being garbage, infectig them. I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. Does that mean that my comment makes them more garbage than they already are I don’t see how that is possible. I did notice that you make no comment on the quotes themselves. Instead you try to change the subject. If you don’t have a comment about the quotes, which were in response to Patrick Murebil I guess we are through. Oh, by the way I’ll try to be more diligent in my use of the quote boxes.

In Christ Richard

Forgive me Richard, if your unresponse to my post are hard to follow. I admitted this in the beginning because they deal with the fulfillment and spiritual realities. I ask that you forgive my frankness to your posts, if you consider my questions a matter that deals with your character, I assure you, my statements or questions deals with what you revealed and what you clearly believe.

When you accuse my faith of being in idolatry, that is a serious accusation that deserves an answer. When you state our priests create god in a bread, I was expecting more of an explanation from you. I can accept you not understanding, but that does not seem to be the case with you. Instead of allowing clarification of your accusation. You bring out quotes and place them out of context, to agree with your anti catholic view point.

What I mean by your bias, or infecting the quotes is this. The way the Catholic person is explaining the spiritual aspects of his ordination, being that our priest’s are consecrated unto God, does not in any way translate into what you have read in the quotes, and their meanings are contrary to how you understand them. That is why I stated, your opinion infects the meaning of what is being revealed about the spiritual aspects of what takes place in these mysteries of God.

Many others are doing a great job here. My posts were not just intended for you here. They are for all to see what Catholics believe.

I mean no attack on your character. If my words came across that way to you, then I have offended you, and I ask you to forgive me.

I would wish to address your quotes, but I was confused because your comment appeared to run with them.

The quotes do not translate into what you accuse them of doing. All the mysteries are done through the Lord Jesus, and it is he who makes these mysteries present. This is the fundamental misunderstanding taking place here. What is of the spirit is spirit and what is of the flesh is flesh. The Mass is both, fully human and fully divine. You cant have one without the other in Jesus, this is a revelation of the incarnation.

There are two aspects to interpreting sacred scripture. One is of the natural (present) and the other is of the Spirit (eternal). Catholics have the fullness of the deposit of faith, and takes up both. From what I gather from your interpretation of scripture does not reveal the spiritual (eternal) aspects of scripture which takes faith from the heart and intellectual knowledge of scripture.

Truthfully, I think the Eucharist might be to much of a mystery of faith for your interpretation to scripture. Please dont take this as an attack to your character, it is not. I am merely indicating, that to understand what the Catholic church has believed these last 2000 years from Jesus teachings begins with faith in the spiritual realities, that take off from the natural knowledge of scripture, to which you appear to have plenty of. My prayer here is that all including me, will raise our faith in Jesus through his Word.

Sacramental understanding of the Catholic faith will help you understand the perspective of what Jesus instituted in the sacraments. This grace how it comes to us through the sacraments is what is lacking in your understanding to the mysteries of the Eucharist, and Words of consecration of Jesus.

With that I will yeild to you Richard;
Peace be with you

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Calling someone’s cherished beliefs “garbage” is hardly “intelligent dialog in the spirit of love that is Jesus”

I’m sorry MarysRoses not so much that I called these quotes garbage altho that probably was not the best word. What I truly am sorry for is the fact that you hold this as a “cherished beleif”
St.Lawrence:

But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests - HOC EST CORPUS MEUM - God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him and as often as they call him, and places [pg. 27] himself in their hands, even though they should be be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal they move him as they please, from one place to another, they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others. “Oh, how very great is their power,” says St. Lawrence Justinian, speaking of priests. “A word falls from their lips and the body of Christ is there substantially formed from the matter of bread, and the Incarnate Word descended from heaven, is found really present on the table of the altar! Never did divine goodness give such power to the angels. The angels abide by the order of God, but the priests take him in their hands, distribute him to the faithful, and partake of him as food for themselves.”

Can’t you see the arrogance and blasphemy of these statements. A mighty all powerfull God does not submit himself to sinful mankind. It is us who are to submit ourselves to Him as not only our Savior, but probably more importantly as our Lord. That means He gets to call the shots and we as his created beings are obedient. I have great respect for you MarysRoses. But I cannot have respect for this “cherished beleif” that the priest is above God.

In Christ Richard

 

[MarysRoses]

I’m sorry MarysRoses not so much that I called these quotes garbage altho that probably was not the best word. What I truly am sorry for is the fact that you hold this as a “cherished beleif”

Can’t you see the arrogance and blasphemy of these statements. A mighty all powerfull God does not submit himself to sinful mankind. It is us who are to submit ourselves to Him as not only our Savior, but probably more importantly as our Lord. That means He gets to call the shots and we as his created beings are obedient. I have great respect for you MarysRoses. But I cannot have respect for this “cherished beleif” that the priest is above God.

In Christ Richard

My belief is that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist.
I made it clear or so I thought, that I do not hold the role of the priest above God. The role of the priest in the Eucharist is one of God’s gifts to us. You can find all the quaint quotes you wish, it does nothing to change Church teaching, which is clear.

God bless
MarysRoses

 

[MrS]

I’m sorry MarysRoses not so much that I called these quotes garbage altho that probably was not the best word. What I truly am sorry for is the fact that you hold this as a “cherished beleif”

In Christ Richard

Well, feel sorry for me too.

I feel so graced that I am not one who walked away. But then it does make life “dfficult” trying to share this gift with others. I just can’t explain a mystery so that another can see it because of me.

I was told once that I would know when I had faith because I would then always ask for more. That happened… don’t remember just how or when. But it must have happened,

I don’t find it strange at all that God would come to us as a very fragile baby, totally dependant on two humans for His very survival. He supplied all the graces and protections He needed to supply for those two to raise that child.

I also don’t find it strange at all that God would continue to come to us as a very fragile piece of bread, totally dependant on a priest for this mystery. He again supplies all the graces and protections needed to confect the Eucharist.

Additionally, He warns us, the laity, of the fatal consequences of assuming a ministerial position/duty. It must be really important to Him.

So I recognize a priest, not for the human sinner he is, but for the consecrated hands, the sacrifices made 24/7 to serve us in the faith, and the powers given through the succession of bishops all the way back to the Apostles… to forgive sins in Christ’s name, and to confect the Eucharist in the person of Christ.

My pastor is certainly not Christ or a Creator… but I see Him in his actions, and in his life.

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Originally Posted by St.Lawrence
But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests - HOC EST CORPUS MEUM - God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him and as often as they call him, and places [pg. 27] himself in their hands, even though they should be be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal they move him as they please, from one place to another, they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others. “Oh, how very great is their power,” says St. Lawrence Justinian, speaking of priests. “A word falls from their lips and the body of Christ is there substantially formed from the matter of bread, and the Incarnate Word descended from heaven, is found really present on the table of the altar! Never did divine goodness give such power to the angels. The angels abide by the order of God, but the priests take him in their hands, distribute him to the faithful, and partake of him as food for themselves.”

Why St. Lawrence reverences the hands of the holy priesthood of Jesus, through sacred scriptures: Jesus consecrated himself for his priesthood beginning with his first apostles, note that he also prays for those after the apostles; Now St. Lawrence does not speak for the Catholic church, he is only displaying the awesome power that God administers through the high Priesthood of Jesus, by his own eyewitness account.

**John17: 14 **I gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
15
6 I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.
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**They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
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Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
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As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
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And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. **20
**"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
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so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. **22
**And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, **23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

**Acts 1: 8 ** **But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." **

**Mathew 28; 18 **Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
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teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 **And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” **

**Mathew 18:20 **For where two or three are gathered together in my name, **there am I in the midst of them." **

**John 20: 21 ** (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
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15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
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16 **Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **

**Luke 10: 16 ****Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." **

**Ephesians 2: 19 **So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,
20
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 10
21
Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord;
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**in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. **

John 21: Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Feed my lambs.” **16
He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Tend my sheep.” **
17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, **"Feed my sheep. **

1Peter 2:for** you have tasted that the Lord is good**. 2
4
Come to him, a living stone, 3 rejected by human beings but chosen and precious in the sight of God,
5
and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual house to** be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ**.
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For it says in scripture: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion, a cornerstone, chosen and precious, and whoever believes in it shall not be put to shame.”
7
Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
8
and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny.
9
5 But you are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises" of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

**2 Peter 1: 4 **
Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, **so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, **

**Hebrews 5;1 ** **Every high priest is taken from among men and made their representative before God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. **2
He is able to deal patiently 3 with the ignorant and erring, for he himself is beset by weakness
3
and so, for this reason, must make sin offerings for himself as well as for the people.
4
**No one takes this honor upon himself but only when called by God, just as Aaron was. **5
In the same way, it was not Christ who glorified himself in becoming high priest, but rather the one who said to him: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”;

**Hebrews 7: 24 **but **he, because he remains forever, has a priesthood that does not pass away.
25
17 Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them.
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It was fitting that we should have such a high priest: 18 holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, higher than the heavens. 19 **

**Mathew 16; 17 **Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
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**I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

Jesus has a high priesthood, that administers God’s graces through his chosen priesthood through the Cathoilc church. Jesus Promises to be with his Church until the end of ages. St. Lawrence is in awe, to see God work through his consecrated, and celibate priest in the sacred mysteries of the Mass.
Peace