Amazing Facts bible study guide

[fbl9]

I read it in the word of God. But you don’t have to take my word for it.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
I know that this is the second because it comes after the first.

In Christ Richard

why not add another one… thou shalt not adore them…why don’t you then divide the commandments up by thou shalt?or are you Jewish since you use what is only approved by the Jewish?what i am trying to get at is why do prostants use the claim that how the Jews did it so we do too?even in regards to what scripture is.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

why not add another one… thou shalt not adore them…why don’t you then divide the commandments up by thou shalt?or are you Jewish since you use what is only approved by the Jewish?what i am trying to get at is why do prostants use the claim that how the Jews did it so we do too?even in regards to what scripture is.

Because it is still talking about graven images, when it admonishes us not to adore them. Clearly still part of the second commandment. The first commandment on the other hand admonishes us not to have ANY gods before the one true God. This is a lot more expansive than the second and is not really talking about graven images at all. ie We can have a false god in our mind without a graven image at all.

I’m not quit sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that we are not bound by the ten commandments?

In Christ Richard

 

[Nan_S]

Because it is still talking about graven images, when it admonishes us not to adore them. Clearly still part of the second commandment. The first commandment on the other hand admonishes us not to have ANY gods before the one true God. This is a lot more expansive than the second and is not really talking about graven images at all. ie We can have a false god in our mind without a graven image at all.

I’m not quit sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that we are not bound by the ten commandments?

In Christ Richard

The confusion comes in part from how the commandments are divided. Scripture never clearly numbers them #1 through #10.

For over 1,500 years the Catholic Church read the First Commandment as being (I’m paraphrasing) “I am the Lord thy God, Thou Shalt Not Have False Gods, Thou Shalt Not Worship Graven Images.” and the Second Commandment as being “You Shalt Not Take the Name of the Lord thy God in Vain.”

We still reckoned the number as 10 because we read the last two as being 9. Thou Shalt Not Covet thy Neighbor’s Wife, and 10. Thou Shalt Not Covet thy Neighbor’s Goods.

Along comes the Protestant Reformation, and as part of their tumultous changes the leaders want to strip the Catholic Churches of all valuables, decorations, and anything that isn’t a direct Me-and-Jesus link. Out the window go the saints, the reverence for the Blessed Virgin, and all their icons and statues. Henry VIII made a lot of money by confiscating the religious treasures of the churches and monastaries, melting the gold down for bullion and selling the precious gems that adorned bibles.

The theological justification for this was “Doesn’t scripture tell us not to worship idols?” To make the point clear, they split the first commandment into two parts, making the second commandment “Thou Shalt Not Worship Graven Images”, pushing all the rest down one number, and (needing to keep the number at ten) combining the last two into one: Thou Shalt Not Covet.

I’m not quit sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that we are not bound by the ten commandments?

Not at all. We prohibit the worship of all false gods, whether embodied in graven images or defined in unethical and immoral attitudes.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

My belief is that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist.
I made it clear or so I thought, that I do not hold the role of the priest above God. The role of the priest in the Eucharist is one of God’s gifts to us. You can find all the quaint quotes you wish, it does nothing to change Church teaching, which is clear.

God bless
MarysRoses

Apparently, you didn’t make it as clear as you thought at least not to me. But that’s probably my fault. Are you saying here that your stance that you do not hold the priest above God and the teachings of the CC are in total agreement? Are you saying that these “quaint quotes” as you put it are not reflective of the CC teaching? Here are the sources for my “quaint quotes” They include a saint of the CC, The Roman Catechism, and a Catholic priest who was published by The Sunday Visitor a Prestigeous Catholic periodical. If these do not reflect Official Catholic teaching than what does?
Source: The Dignity and Duties of the Priest or Selva, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, translated from the Italian, edited by Eugene Grimm, copyright 1927 by Very Rev. James Barron, C.SS.R, pgs. 26-27.
Source: The Catechism of the Council of Trent (The Roman Catechism), translated by John A McHugh, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D. and Charles J. Callan, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D., published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Copyright 1992, Rockford, Illinois, 61105, Sacrament of Holy Orders,
Source: Faith of Millions, by Reverend John A. O’brien, Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana, page 270, 271.

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

Richard,
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which can be located on the USCCB site or the Vatican website is the only comprehensive statement of Catholic beliefs that are authoritative for the worldwide church. Currently, there is no other Catechism that is approved for any diocese in the United States, to my knowledge. Anything else is a persons interpretation of, or opinion of our beleifs. Even if this comes from a priest, bishop or the Pope. (Unless speaking Ex-Cathedra, which happens very seldom.)

The sources you list below would be like me quoting Jan Marcussen and saying he speaks for the General Conference of the Catholic Church. After all he was an ordained Minister and is Adventist.

Even a bishop can only speak authoritatively for his own diocese, and does not speak for the Church. Hope this helps clear up some of your confusion about why we would rather not spend time debating unauthoritative comments.

Brandon

Apparently, you didn’t make it as clear as you thought at least not to me. But that’s probably my fault. Are you saying here that your stance that you do not hold the priest above God and the teachings of the CC are in total agreement? Are you saying that these “quaint quotes” as you put it are not reflective of the CC teaching? Here are the sources for my “quaint quotes” They include a saint of the CC, The Roman Catechism, and a Catholic priest who was published by The Sunday Visitor a Prestigeous Catholic periodical. If these do not reflect Official Catholic teaching than what does?
Source: The Dignity and Duties of the Priest or Selva, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, translated from the Italian, edited by Eugene Grimm, copyright 1927 by Very Rev. James Barron, C.SS.R, pgs. 26-27.
Source: The Catechism of the Council of Trent (The Roman Catechism), translated by John A McHugh, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D. and Charles J. Callan, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D., published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Copyright 1992, Rockford, Illinois, 61105, Sacrament of Holy Orders,
Source: Faith of Millions, by Reverend John A. O’brien, Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana, page 270, 271.

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

Richard,
I am assuming you are Adventist, but I have not read all your posts. The following SDA link may be of interest to you in regarding the division of the Ten Commandments: adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/countingcommand.htm

A good summary from the paper is as follows, and although it is written by the Adventist Biblical Research Institute and reflects the Catholic thought on the subject: “In conclusion, it really doesn’t matter how we count the commandments as long as we do not modify in any way their sacred content.”

Brandon

Because it is still talking about graven images, when it admonishes us not to adore them. Clearly still part of the second commandment. The first commandment on the other hand admonishes us not to have ANY gods before the one true God. This is a lot more expansive than the second and is not really talking about graven images at all. ie We can have a false god in our mind without a graven image at all.

I’m not quit sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that we are not bound by the ten commandments?

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The confusion comes in part from how the commandments are divided. Scripture never clearly numbers them #1 through #10.

For over 1,500 years the Catholic Church read the First Commandment as being (I’m paraphrasing) “I am the Lord thy God, Thou Shalt Not Have False Gods, Thou Shalt Not Worship Graven Images.” and the Second Commandment as being “You Shalt Not Take the Name of the Lord thy God in Vain.”

Here are the official Catholic Ten Commandments
The Ten Commandments
Catholic Version

I.
I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me!
II.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain!
III.
Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day!
IV.
Honor your father and your mother!
V.
You shall not kill!
VI.
You shall not commit adultery!
VII.
You shall not steal!
VIII.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor!
IX.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife!
X.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods!

The part about graven images seems to have disappeared does this mean that the CC has taken it upon itself to change the word of God. Also here is the fourth commandment as taken from the Douay Rheims bible
8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. 10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

Notice the Lords day is the Sabbath in the word of God and what is ninety-nine words in the bible is whittled down to seven in the Catholic ten commandments. The fact that the Sabbath was made as a memorial to creation is also lost. The CC has also tried to change that and make it a memorial to the resurrection of Jesus. Seems like a good deal of editorial license is taking place here with the words that God Himself spoke with His own mouth and wrote with His finger in stone.

]
We still reckoned the number as 10 because we read the last two as being 9. Thou Shalt Not Covet thy Neighbor’s Wife, and 10. Thou Shalt Not Covet thy Neighbor’s Goods.

You read the last two what, as being nine.

Nan:

Along comes the Protestant Reformation, and as part of their tumultous changes the leaders want to strip the Catholic Churches of all valuables
The theological justification for this was “Doesn’t scripture tell us not to worship idols?” To make the point clear, they split the first commandment into two parts, making the second commandment “Thou Shalt Not Worship Graven Images”, pushing all the rest down one number, and (needing to keep the number at ten) combining the last two into one: Thou Shalt Not Covet.

You mean they put it back the way it is in Gods word

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

Richard,
These are not the “official” Catholic Ten Commandments, and I am not sure why you would say they are, unless you now presume to speak for the Church. These are a summary of the Ten Commandments posted by you! Silly!

The “Official” 10 Commandments are found in the Bible, and are also listed, each with its own section, in the Official Catechism. What you typed below… is niether from the Catechism or Scripture. Sorry… you struck out on this one.

B

Here are the official Catholic Ten Commandments
The Ten Commandments
Catholic Version

I.
I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me!
II.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain!
III.
Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day!
IV.
Honor your father and your mother!
V.
You shall not kill!
VI.
You shall not commit adultery!
VII.
You shall not steal!
VIII.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor!
IX.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife!
X.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods!

The part about graven images seems to have disappeared does this mean that the CC has taken it upon itself to change the word of God. Also here is the fourth commandment as taken from the Douay Rheims bible
8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. 10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

Notice the Lords day is the Sabbath in the word of God and what is ninety-nine words in the bible is whittled down to seven in the Catholic ten commandments. The fact that the Sabbath was made as a memorial to creation is also lost. The CC has also tried to change that and make it a memorial to the resurrection of Jesus. Seems like a good deal of editorial license is taking place here with the words that God Himself spoke with His own mouth and wrote with His finger in stone.

You read the last two what, as being nine.

You mean they put it back the way it is in Gods word

In Christ Richard

 

[TriuneUnity]

Richard,
These are not the “official” Catholic Ten Commandments, and I am not sure why you would say they are, unless you now presume to speak for the Church. These are a summary of the Ten Commandments posted by you! Silly!

The “Official” 10 Commandments are found in the Bible, and are also listed, each with its own section, in the Official Catechism. What you typed below… is niether from the Catechism or Scripture. Sorry… you struck out on this one.

B

Nice summary, SDA; We as Lutherans use the same numbering of the 10 Commandments that the Catholic Catechism does.

The prohibition about graven images is covered by the 1st Commandment. Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans use this. The Reformed and other traditions split the 1st Commandment into two separate Commandments and then place Commandment 9 and 10 together.

To argue over this point is absurd and probably only happens on apologetic forums.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which can be located on the USCCB site or the Vatican website is the only comprehensive statement of Catholic beliefs that are authoritative for the worldwide church. Currently, there is no other Catechism that is approved for any diocese in the United States, to my knowledge. Anything else is a persons interpretation of, or opinion of our beleifs. Even if this comes from a priest, bishop or the Pope. (Unless speaking Ex-Cathedra, which happens very seldom.)

The sources you list below would be like me quoting Jan Marcussen and saying he speaks for the General Conference of the Catholic Church. After all he was an ordained Minister and is Adventist.

Even a bishop can only speak authoritatively for his own diocese, and does not speak for the Church. Hope this helps clear up some of your confusion about why we would rather not spend time debating unauthoritative comments.

Brandon

So you are saying these sources are just blowing hot air and the substance of the quotes is baloney. I totally agree , but isn’t this confusing to the people that respect these sources.

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

No… In my experience, it is generally only confusing to people who are trying to use them as an authority, rather than pastoral council or opinion, when they are not meant to be authoritative. I have not heard of any Catholics that have stuggled with this.

Brandon

So you are saying these sources are just blowing hot air and the substance of the quotes is baloney. I totally agree , but isn’t this confusing to the people that respect these sources.

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,
These are not the “official” Catholic Ten Commandments, and I am not sure why you would say they are, unless you now presume to speak for the Church. These are a summary of the Ten Commandments posted by you! Silly!

The “Official” 10 Commandments are found in the Bible, and are also listed, each with its own section, in the Official Catechism. What you typed below… is niether from the Catechism or Scripture. Sorry… you struck out on this one. :

I went to the Vatican web site and the commandments are listed, exactly the way I have them listed under the heading Traditional Catechal Formula along with The commandments as found in Exodus and Deuteronomy. I probably was mistaken in saying they where official. But whether or not they are official or not is beside the point. The CC presents this summary as you call it as the Ten Commandments and the fact that they have been changed you cannot really dispute.

In Christ Richard

 

[Richard_Kastner]

No… In my experience, it is generally only confusing to people who are trying to use them as an authority, rather than pastoral council or opinion, when they are not meant to be authoritative. I have not heard of any Catholics that have stuggled with this.

Brandon

So your saying it wouldn’t be confusing to people that are not using them as an authority. How can you possibly know this. I’m sure you don’t know all Catholics so you probably don’t know if many are struggling with this.

 

[SDA2RC]

Richard,
Let me try this again, since you obviously are not getting it. Here are the official Commandments for the Catholic Church, from the Bible at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops Website. This is a Catholic Bible.

Exodus 20:
1 1 Then God delivered all these commandments: 2 "I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. 3 You shall not have other gods besides me. 4 You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; 5 2 you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; 6 but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain. For the LORD will not leave unpunished him who takes his name in vain. 8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day. 9 Six days you may labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you. 11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, that you may have a long life in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you. 13 "You shall not kill. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or ***, nor anything else that belongs to him."http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus20.htm

Anything else is a summary of said commandments. Period. The commandments are only “official” in scripture because that is where they are given, that is the primary source.

The Catechism gives the official teachings on the Commandments, but it an explanation of the Church’s teachings on scripture… not a replacement for scripture.

You can find the Catechism here:
usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

Here is the official Catholic teaching on the numeration of the Commandments from the Catechism.

Paragraph 2066 states:

“The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.”

Officially the Catholic Church has no stance on how the commandments are numbered, the way we do it is simply traditional, with a small T, which means it is not inspired or required. Your numeration of the commandments is just as valid since it is only changing the number assigned to commands, not the commands themselves.

Simply stated… we dont care if the Sabbath is the third or fourth commandment, and if the prohibition on Graven images is in the 1st or 2nd, as long as neither is removed.

Hope this helps clarify your understanding.

I went to the Vatican web site and the commandments are listed, exactly the way I have them listed under the heading Traditional Catechal Formula along with The commandments as found in Exodus and Deuteronomy. I probably was mistaken in saying they where official. But whether or not they are official or not is beside the point. The CC presents this summary as you call it as the Ten Commandments and the fact that they have been changed you cannot really dispute.

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

So your saying it wouldn’t be confusing to people that are not using them as an authority. How can you possibly know this. I’m sure you don’t know all Catholics so you probably don’t know if many are struggling with this.

Richard,
You ignored the first part of my response… “IN MY EXPERIENCE…”

The Catholics I know… understand Church authority and where to go to get official teaching. I am not speaking for all Catholics, which is why I qualified my statement with “IN MY EXPERIENCE…” denoting that I am speaking strictly within the experience that I have had with other Catholics.

Now you know too!


Here is an except from the letter by Pope John Paul II regarding the authority of the Catechism:

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!”

You see above that this catechism is declared to be the norm, or standard teachings of the Church. None of the books you quoted can say that.

 

[fbl9]

hi Richard K may i ask do you have any pictures of a family members? did you or did you not make for yourself an image of something?again with the sabbath are you sure you aren’t of the Jewish religion?

 

[Nan_S]

I went to the Vatican web site and the commandments are listed, exactly the way I have them listed under the heading Traditional Catechal Formula along with The commandments as found in Exodus and Deuteronomy. I probably was mistaken in saying they where official. But whether or not they are official or not is beside the point. The CC presents this summary as you call it as the Ten Commandments and the fact that they have been changed you cannot really dispute.

In Christ Richard

I’d like you to have the link to the official Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is found on the Vatican’s website here:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7B.HTM

Here is the First Commandment, in it’s entirety, as found in the official Catechism. You’ll notice that the prohibition against making and worshipping idols is a prominent part.

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. ⇒ Deut 5:6-9.)
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve. (Mt 4:10.)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Simply stated… we dont care if the Sabbath is the third or fourth commandment, and if the prohibition on Graven images is in the 1st or 2nd, as long as neither is removed.

Hope this helps clarify your understanding.

So, you don’t care which commandment is with which number,but the CC doesn’t feel compelled to follow them. Is that right? Because you do bow down before a graven image in the so called eucharist and you keep the Sunday instead of the Sabbath. Just seeking clarity.

In Christ Richard

 

[VWcrazy]

Because you do bow down before a graven image in the so called eucharist

Jesus Christ is not a graven image, he is the second person of the Triune God.

[So, you don’t care which commandment is with which number,but the CC doesn’t feel compelled to follow them. Is that right?/QUOTE]

And this question is being asked by someone who rejects the Church established by Christ?!! Chutzpah!

 

[Nan_S]

So, you don’t care which commandment is with which number,but the CC doesn’t feel compelled to follow them. Is that right? Because you do bow down before a graven image in the so called eucharist and you keep the Sunday instead of the Sabbath. Just seeking clarity.

In Christ Richard

It appears the only “clarity” here is that we can see you’re not interested in clarity, or understanding, or any theological ideas except your own.

What part of “Take and eat. This is my body. This is the cup of my blood.” do you NOT understand?

What part of celebrating the resurrection of the Lord on the day He rose - Sunday - do you NOT understand?