Amazing Facts bible study guide

[SDA2RC]

So, you don’t care which commandment is with which number,but the CC doesn’t feel compelled to follow them. Is that right? Because you do bow down before a graven image in the so called eucharist and you keep the Sunday instead of the Sabbath. Just seeking clarity.

In Christ Richard

Richard,
Have you asked a Catholic if they kneel down and worship graven images? Or are you just making a false accusation with no first hand knowledge? If so, this is called False Witness and is part of th Law that you are promoting!

Just in case you havent ever actually asked a Catholic, I can tell you positively that we worship God alone, no graven images or False god’s. The one Christian Tri-une God consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Now you know the truth, and the truth will set you free!

You are correct when you say that we do not follow the Law. As Christians we follow the Gospel, not the Law.

Christ lived under the law to free us from the Law.**“What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.” Galatians
3:17-18.
**The Law had a definite beginning time (430 years after Abraham) and a definite ending time, --When the promised Seed (Christ, vs. 19) came. Scripture makes it clear that our inheritance of heaven, of the promises to Abraham, rely not on keeping the Old Covenant Law (Mitzvoh) with its 613 commands, but on the promises made to Abraham and God’s fulfillment of those promises!

We obey those commands found in the Gospel. The Sabbath is not found in the Gospel, and was the Jerusalem Council re-enforced the fact that Christians do not keep the Sabbath when they said that Christians do not need to be circumcised. For Non-circumcised Gentiles were under no obligation to keep the Jewish Law.

The Ten Commandments are important as they point out what we view as natural laws. But this does not mean that we keep their ceremonial or observances that have been obviously changed in the Gospel.

Just for your record: Among the many things that the New Covenant Contains… it also contains some of the same commands as the Old Covenant… however, most are different. Regarding the part of the law known as the Ten Commandments… we see only these commands retained in the New Covenant:

1). To worship the Lord God only (1st commandment): no less than 50 times
Note: the prohibition against making a likeness of that in heaven or on earth is not, however,
repeated in the NT.
2). Idolatry (2nd commandment): condemned 12 times
3). Profanity (3rd commandment): condemned 4 times
4). Honoring parents (5th commandment) is taught 6 times
5). Murder (6th commandment) condemned 6 times
6). Adultery (7th commandment) condemned 12 times
7). Theft (8th commandment) condemned 4 times
8). False Witness (9th commandment) condemned 4 times
9). Covetousness (10th commandment) condemned 9 times

However, there is not one single command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Jewish Sabbath.

Further, Sabbath Breaking is never listed as a sin in the New Testament: For example:

In Mark 7:21-22 13 sins are listed. Jesus did not mention breaking the Sabbath.

In Romans 1:29-32 20 sins are listed and not one of them is Sabbath breaking.

In Galatians 5:19-21 a list of 15 sins are given, no Sabbath breaking!

In 2 Timothy 3:1-4 there’s a list of 18 sins, but not once is Sabbath breaking mentioned!

Hope this helps answer your question. There are of course… MANY othe reasons we dont keep the Sabbath. But these are a couple of the basics!

 

[panoikei]

Rosaries, vestments. Blessed objects no longer fit for use.

You forgot to clarify that we are to bury sacramentals that are blessed by the clergy. On example of treating sacramentals with respect is a 5 gallon bottle of holy water I obtained in our early conversion. I couldn’t find a suitable vessel to carry it in on hand and used our clear water bottle to hold it. I blessed everynight for a while. As time passed I realized I really had way to much and was concerned that it would turn bad in the bottle or one of the kids might use it as drinking water. Rather than pour it down the sink or toilet I used it to massively bless the entrance of our home. I need a smaller bottle to hold it so it’s not so difficult to get out.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Friends in Christ

I haven’t read this forum for a while, and am astounded at the ground you have all covered, with some rise in temperatures here and there, but otherwise amazingly civil and Christ-like!

It seems as if we are going around in circles…

The SDA’s are saying: Catholics have many wonderful beliefs, but few of them can honestly be found in Scripture; many of them Christ or His disciples never kept or mentioned; many of them only became part of Catholic Belief hundreds of years after Christ; some of them only fairly recently (Papal infallability, Mary’s assumption) – from reading this forum we get the impression that Catholics truly believe they were instructed by Christ Himself to believe what they do, that their priests and Pope are kind of ``God on earth’’, who have the right to add to, delete from the Sacred Scripture whatever they feel necessary, under the protective umbrella of Sacred Tradition…
When SDA’s quote any Catholic literature, which to us seems blasphemous, (I could quote sayings by popes like Pope Leo ?? where he actually says that he is God on earth!), I get the impression that you avoid these statements, deny them, or say we are biased.! This gives me the impression that maybe there are many sincere Catholics who are not fully aware of what their church actually believes – as a Bible teacher, I have noticed this on a number of occasions when Catholic pupils in my classes have said: `I am a Catholic, and I don’t believe what this says in my cathechism…’

And on the other hand, Catholics are saying SDA’s are Jewish because they insist on keeping God’s law, or we are not spiritual enough because we refuse to turn a symbol into more than it should be, or that God’s law has been done away with, since we are saved by grace (I suggest you read Romans on this one). It seems as if the two views will never meet!

Yet I thank you for being considerate enough to give us SDA’s a hearing on YOUR Catholic forum!

I wish we could at least come to some common ground, where all of us could say: The Bible is God’s word, not a SDA or Catholic modification, and it should be the basis of ALL our beliefs, NOT traditions, or additions by spiritual leaders, how noble or kind they may have been…

In case you think SDA’s are just trying to be difficult, or that we hate you – NOT TRUE! We genuinely believe that the Bible predicts a stormy ending to life as we know it on this planet, and VERY SOON!

If you read the closing chapters of the book Revelation, you find 2 classes of people – those that follow a religion of their own devising (and receive the mark of the beast + attending plagues), and a those that ``keep the commandments of Jesus and have the spirit of prophecy’’ Rev 14:12. It is as if a giant tsunami is going to wipe this globe clean before Jesus comes to this earth again, and we feel guilty as hell if we shut up and don’t warn people about it. Please take all our comments from this angle, and hopefully we can gain ground in our common love for Jesus, and our desire to be in heaven with Him soon!

God bless

Friedrich

 

[adventistnomore]

So, you don’t care which commandment is with which number,but the CC doesn’t feel compelled to follow them. Is that right? Because you do bow down before a graven image in the so called eucharist and you keep the Sunday instead of the Sabbath. Just seeking clarity.

In Christ Richard

Adventist tactic #4: When someone tries to corner you on one issue, bounce back to other pet issues. When someone tries to corner you on them, fall back on earlier issues.

Richard,

Although scripture tells us there are ten commandments, it does not tell us where the divisions are. All we have are different numbering traditions, all quite ancient. (The Catholic Church is comfortable with all of these, though it traditionally uses the system used by the Latin fathers.) Adventist scholar Angel Rodriguez (in that Review column SDA2RC quoted) also says the precise way of numbering of the commandments is open for discussion, and although he takes a position, agrees it does not ultimately matter how one divides them.

Now if only the average Adventist layman would take a cue from the findings of Adventist scholarship.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Friends in Christ

– from reading this forum we get the impression that Catholics truly believe they were instructed by Christ Himself to believe what they do, that their priests and Pope are kind of ``God on earth’’, who have the right to add to, delete from the Sacred Scripture whatever they feel necessary, under the protective umbrella of Sacred Tradition…

God bless

Friedrich

Here is an amazing fact. A quote from Ellen G. White:

General Conference in Session Highest Authority –

"I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body.At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise plans and to restrict God’s work, **I have said that I **could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.

When this power, which God has placed in the church, is accredited wholly to one man, and he is invested with the authority to be judgment for other minds, then the true Bible order is changed. Satan’s efforts upon such a man’s mind would be most subtle and sometimes well-nigh overpowering, for the enemy would hope that through his mind he could affect many others. **Let us give to the highest organized authority in the church **that which we are prone to give to one man or to a small group of men.–Testimonies, Vol. 9, pp. 260, 261. {ChL 1.5}”

My, that sounds very Papal of her does it not? Especially as you read where she refers to herself and her instruction from the Lord, and her decisions, and her use of the personal pronoun “I”. Interesting that SDAs look to her word and visions as an authority. And the General Conference assembled as “the highest organized authority in the church”. So why the criticism of the Pope and Bishiops assembled as the Magesterium?

Here we have the SDA church claiming the God ordained and established structure of church authority as revealed in the Bible. And how long have they been claiming this authority? Well, somewhere between today and 164 years ago.

The Catholic church has claimed the God ordained and established structure of church authority as revealed in the Bible as well. And how long have they been claiming this authority? Well, somewhere between today and 2,000 years ago.

Who do you think has had the time to sort out the issues?

This was one of the biggest eye openers for me. The Reformation began about 500 years ago. As SDAs we were taught that God provided more and more light to His people as time went on, which is why there are so many Protestant churches. As more light was revealed and more people believed the truth of the Bible, they moved on and formed new churches. The SDA church believes and teaches that it is the Remnant Church before the Second Coming of Jesus. And because of that, I suppose the Reformation has ended. And yet the SDA church and other Protestant churches are dealing with issues, which have been dealt with long long ago. These Protestant church systems are becoming catholic in nature as they try to address issues, bring an end to the Reformation, and thus end still further exodus from their denominations.

 

[adventistnomore]

When SDA’s quote any Catholic literature, which to us seems blasphemous, (I could quote sayings by popes like Pope Leo ?? where he actually says that he is God on earth!), I get the impression that you avoid these statements, deny them, or say we are biased.! This gives me the impression that maybe there are many sincere Catholics who are not fully aware of what their church actually believes – as a Bible teacher, I have noticed this on a number of occasions when Catholic pupils in my classes have said: `I am a Catholic, and I don’t believe what this says in my cathechism…’

We do not deny those statements, where their authenticity and authority can be proven. However, we would remind you to interpret them only according to their intended meaning.

When the pope is called “God on earth,” it cannot mean mean that the pope is ontologically God in any way (as Adventists read the statement). Obviously, Catholics do not believe the pope is actually a/the God: if he were, he would be sinless. Instead, popes typically go to Confession once a week. Also, the pope would never err; but even the Catechism of the Catholic Church reminds us that popes have erred in their historical decisions (2298). Furthermore, the pope would be omnipotent or omniscient, which he clearly is not.

Rather, when some sources call the pope “God on earth,” they mean to say that the pope has been entrusted with a measure of God’s authority in his governance of the universal Church. There is a strong Adventist analogy to this. Ellen White calls the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists “the voice of God” and “the voice of God to the people” (LDE 50):

God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for he who does this despises the voice of God. (AA 164)

“God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected.” (3T 451)

Although the General Conference speaks with “the voice of God” on earth, it is not ontologically God. Instead, God has invested the men of the GC with such “special authority and power,” that to disregard its decisions is as if to disregard God Himself. It’s voice is that of God on earth; its authority is to be followed as if God on earth. Of course, this does not mean that the GC never errs; Ellen White criticized the GC, claiming it failed to be the “voice of God” in certain portions of its history (17MR 216). But after the reforms of the 1901 GC Session, she reaffirmed her confidence in the GC as such (LDE 55-56).

What is so different between Adventism and Catholicism?

 

[adventistnomore]

So apparently, Patrick Murebil and I hit the same wavelength. smirk

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Dear Friends in Christ

I haven’t read this forum for a while, and am astounded at the ground you have all covered, with some rise in temperatures here and there, but otherwise amazingly civil and Christ-like!

It seems as if we are going around in circles…

The SDA’s are saying: Catholics have many wonderful beliefs, but few of them can honestly be found in Scripture;

****This is what the major problem of misunderstandings come in. When SDA"s teach, preach about Catholic beliefs, when they dont practice them, or have the correct understanding of the Catholic faith, for an SDA to make any public (negative) statements about her belief’s. Thus far, every thing an SDA has tried to reveal about a Catholic doctrine has all been a LIE. The SDA does not and cannot give the true explanation of the Catholic faith. If the SDA would stop trying to interpret Catholic doctrinal beliefs according to their own interpretations, when they should learn them first, These circle discussions would not take place.

For example, you state that SDA’s say; that few of the Catholic belief’s “can be found in Scripture”. I myself know, that all of her doctrinal teachings come from both sacred scripture and sacred Traditional teachings from Jesus and the apostles themselves. Why is this? That I can find Catholic teachings in sacred scripture and you cant? Now can I make the claim that Jesus never taught that the soul dies in sacred scripture, but yet SDA’s believe the soul dies at death? The point I am trying to make here, is that SDA’s do not have any business teaching falsely about the Catholic faith. Now if an SDA teaches what the Catholic church believes as correctly interpreted by the Catholic church, I dont think there would be an SDA assembly in existance. SDA’s teach, preach, and make prophecies (which have failed the second coming prophecy) at the expense of the Catholic church when they should not have to. But this tickling of the ear draws its members, when it should be the saving acts of Jesus by God’s love, mercy, forgiveness and grace.

Can an SDA be honest and truly give instruction of what the Catholic church believes and teaches without making negative assumptions about her teachings. I have never been alive yet to see this happen. All the SDA Catholic representations have all been off the mark of the true Catholic doctrine. I have yet to hear a teaching from the Cathoilc church that attacks the SDA church negatively. But almost at every turn when I hear an SDA preach, or teach, the Catholic church is mentioned almost every time negatively, and misrepresented incorrectly publicly.

Your own posts here can attest to this truth, in your first comment about few Catholic teachings are found in scripture, which is untrue.

Peace****

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Dear Friends in Christ

In case you think SDA’s are just trying to be difficult, or that we hate you – NOT TRUE! We genuinely believe that the Bible predicts a stormy ending to life as we know it on this planet, and VERY SOON!

That is the problem here, The SDA community already has made a prophecy date to the second coming and it did not come to pass. How is any one to believe you got it right this time?

If you read the closing chapters of the book Revelation, you find 2 classes of people – those that follow a religion of their own devising (and receive the mark of the beast + attending plagues), and a those that ``keep the commandments of Jesus and have the spirit of prophecy’’ Rev 14:12. It is as if a giant tsunami is going to wipe this globe clean before Jesus comes to this earth again, and we feel guilty as hell if we shut up and don’t warn people about it. Please take all our comments from this angle, and hopefully we can gain ground in our common love for Jesus, and our desire to be in heaven with Him soon!

**Again Friedrich, who gave you the authority to come along 1900 years later after Jesus established his church on Peter in the Roman Catholic church, to interpret and teach scripture to God’s people? Did Jesus himself ordain you, as he did his apostles who in turn ordained their successors in the bishops and Popes in the Catholic church. Now 2000 years of Christian belief does not interpret Revelations as your 19th century biblical interpretation. I think it is good that you inform others that Jesus is coming, so does the Catholic church, but to scare the hell out of them into heaven, I dont think is the way God wants to receive his children into his kingdom.

If you took a first century interpretation of Revelations, oh, I forgot The SDA community just got started 1900 years later, so you dont know how the early church fathers taught about the book of Revelations. Maybe you should look into this? you will find that the book of Revelations has a Liturgy going on in eternity, that mirrors the Catholic Mass. Catholics love the book of Revelations, we dont fear the book, for us it is good news for Catholics.

So I am to understand that; I am to take an SDA comments from the angle of his 19th century biblical interpretation of the end of the world? After the first interpretation failed? I will think about that some more. Our common ground is this, Yes Jesus is coming again. The Catholic church welcomes God’s people by Love, Mercy, Forgiveness and Grace without scaring the hell out of them, and not at the expense of any non-catholic or protestant community. Truth does not need to walk in fear, Truth does not have to tear down another communities belief inorder to be lifted up. Truth does not lie, Truth cannot deceive nor be deceived, Truth does not move it is, Truth is Rock.**Peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Jesus Christ is not a graven image, he is the second person of the Triune God.

[So, you don’t care which commandment is with which number,but the CC doesn’t feel compelled to follow them. Is that right?/QUOTE]

And this question is being asked by someone who rejects the Church established by Christ?!! Chutzpah!

 

[Nan_S]

The host before consecration is a man made object (a graven thing). After consecration you bow down before it and call it god. this is in violation of Gods commandment.

By your logic, Jesus himself was guilty of violating the commandment against graven images. Unless you would suggest that Jesus is not God…

Mt 26:26-28 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mk 14:22-24 And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many."

Lk 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

 

[Deconi]

The host before consecration is a man made object (a graven thing). After consecration you bow down before it and call it god. this is in violation of Gods commandment.

In Christ Richard

God Himself set up a “graven” image for the people to bow down to in the OT. He directed Moses to make the Bronze Serpent and hold it up as a sign…etc. etc. Perhaps your biblical knowledge is selective on that score.

Christ COMMANDS to take His Body and His Blood and consume it…etc. IS HE NOT GOD, now?

Read and research, Richard.

 

[SDA2RC]

Well said Patrick…

Here is an amazing fact. A quote from Ellen G. White:

General Conference in Session Highest Authority –

"I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body.At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise plans and to restrict God’s work, **I have said that I **could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.

When this power, which God has placed in the church, is accredited wholly to one man, and he is invested with the authority to be judgment for other minds, then the true Bible order is changed. Satan’s efforts upon such a man’s mind would be most subtle and sometimes well-nigh overpowering, for the enemy would hope that through his mind he could affect many others. **Let us give to the highest organized authority in the church **that which we are prone to give to one man or to a small group of men.–Testimonies, Vol. 9, pp. 260, 261. {ChL 1.5}”

My, that sounds very Papal of her does it not? Especially as you read where she refers to herself and her instruction from the Lord, and her decisions, and her use of the personal pronoun “I”. Interesting that SDAs look to her word and visions as an authority. And the General Conference assembled as “the highest organized authority in the church”. So why the criticism of the Pope and Bishiops assembled as the Magesterium?

Here we have the SDA church claiming the God ordained and established structure of church authority as revealed in the Bible. And how long have they been claiming this authority? Well, somewhere between today and 164 years ago.

The Catholic church has claimed the God ordained and established structure of church authority as revealed in the Bible as well. And how long have they been claiming this authority? Well, somewhere between today and 2,000 years ago.

Who do you think has had the time to sort out the issues?

This was one of the biggest eye openers for me. The Reformation began about 500 years ago. As SDAs we were taught that God provided more and more light to His people as time went on, which is why there are so many Protestant churches. As more light was revealed and more people believed the truth of the Bible, they moved on and formed new churches. The SDA church believes and teaches that it is the Remnant Church before the Second Coming of Jesus. And because of that, I suppose the Reformation has ended. And yet the SDA church and other Protestant churches are dealing with issues, which have been dealt with long long ago. These Protestant church systems are becoming catholic in nature as they try to address issues, bring an end to the Reformation, and thus end still further exodus from their denominations.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Adventist tactic #4: When someone tries to corner you on one issue, bounce back to other pet issues. When someone tries to corner you on them, fall back on earlier issues.

Richard,

Although scripture tells us there are ten commandments, it does not tell us where the divisions are. All we have are different numbering traditions, all quite ancient. (The Catholic Church is comfortable with all of these, though it traditionally uses the system used by the Latin fathers.) Adventist scholar Angel Rodriguez (in that Review column SDA2RC quoted) also says the precise way of numbering of the commandments is open for discussion, and although he takes a position, agrees it does not ultimately matter how one divides them.

Now if only the average Adventist layman would take a cue from the findings of Adventist scholarship.

Adventistnomore
I really couldn’t care less which way the commandments are numbered. It just makes it a little hard for discussion when there are two numbering systems. Let me slow down, back up, turn around and come at this the way I should have in the first place.
Instead of such an emphasis on the law let me focus on Jesus. Jesus says in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. This tells me that at the end of the world there are going to be two kinds of people (denominations if you will) Those who have everlasting life and those who will perish. I think I can safely state that we all want to be the ones with eternal life. The way to make sure we are in that number is to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. To be washed in the blood of the Lamb of God and accept His sacrifice as being enough. However saying we accept Christ is not enough it must manifest itself in love. Love of God and love of our fellow man. And this love in turn manifests itself in obedience to Gods law. Jn14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments. Revelation 14:12 defines what a saint is 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 12:17 defines God’s end time remnant church:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You will notice that the qualifications for a saint and the qualifications for God’s end time remnant church are the same. And those are to keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. My one and only reason for coming on this site was to try and bring these truths out. My mistake was putting the cart before the horse and emphasising the law first. While the law is not unimportant as I think I have just shown we certainly cannot get to heaven by keeping it. We just can’t be good enough.

Beleive me I really don’t have any tactics. Is your tactic to try and corner people

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

Me thinks you need a better understanding of Rev. 14:12 and 12:17. These texts don’t mention the 10 Commandments. I know that in order to support your man made doctrines, you have to insert “Ten” into the text, however, it simply is not there for the rest of us who are not trying to twist it to support Adventist doctrine. Strike two!

Adventistnomore
I really couldn’t care less which way the commandments are numbered. It just makes it a little hard for discussion when there are two numbering systems. Let me slow down, back up, turn around and come at this the way I should have in the first place.
Instead of such an emphasis on the law let me focus on Jesus. Jesus says in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. This tells me that at the end of the world there are going to be two kinds of people (denominations if you will) Those who have everlasting life and those who will perish. I think I can safely state that we all want to be the ones with eternal life. The way to make sure we are in that number is to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. To be washed in the blood of the Lamb of God and accept His sacrifice as being enough. However saying we accept Christ is not enough it must manifest itself in love. Love of God and love of our fellow man. And this love in turn manifests itself in obedience to Gods law. Jn14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments. Revelation 14:12 defines what a saint is 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 12:17 defines God’s end time remnant church:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You will notice that the qualifications for a saint and the qualifications for God’s end time remnant church are the same. And those are to keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. My one and only reason for coming on this site was to try and bring these truths out. My mistake was putting the cart before the horse and emphasising the law first. While the law is not unimportant as I think I have just shown we certainly cannot get to heaven by keeping it. We just can’t be good enough.

Beleive me I really don’t have any tactics. Is your tactic to try and corner people

In Christ Richard

 

[Nan_S]

Me thinks you need a better understanding of Rev. 14:12 and 12:17. These texts don’t mention the 10 Commandments. I know that in order to support your man made doctrines, you have to insert “Ten” into the text, however, it simply is not there for the rest of us who are not trying to twist it to support Adventist doctrine. Strike two!

I’ve been scratching my head for several days about why the Adventists say there are still ten commandments.

Jesus says the whole of the law is contained in just two commandments, so we no longer have ten but just two.

Mt 22:34-40 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them (a scholar of the law) tested him by asking, “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

Mk 12:28-31 One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, “Which is the first of all the commandments?” Jesus replied, "The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."

The apostles testify to Jesus re-statement of the commandments. Therefore, when Revelation speaks of keeping God’s commandments, we are no longer thinking of the Ten Commandments of Mosaic Law. We are thinking of the Two Commandments of Jesus Christ.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Jn 3:22-24 We keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

2 Jn 5-6 And now I beg you, lady, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we follow his commandments; this is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you follow love.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Nan S

Thank you for reminding us of Jesus’ 2 commandments. Earlier in this forum there was a long discussion on the 10 commandments, numbering etc. Somebody showed us that the CC has a summary' of the 10 commandments in the cathechism -- Jesus also gave a summary’ of the 10 commandments!
1-4 = showing of love and respect for God
5-10 = showing love for your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus did not make up anything new, He just summarized what you and I believe anyway.

God bless,

Friedrich

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Gabriel of 12

That is the problem here, The SDA community already has made a prophecy date to the second coming and it did not come to pass. How is any one to believe you got it right this time?

Please check your facts – the SDA church was founded in 1863. The Millerite Movement predicted a second coming for Christ in 1844 – they were all Methodists. Some of them later became Seventh day Adventists.

Again Friedrich, who gave you the authority to come along 1900 years later after Jesus established his church on Peter in the Roman Catholic church, to interpret and teach scripture to God’s people? Did Jesus himself ordain you, as he did his apostles who in turn ordained their successors in the bishops and Popes in the Catholic church. Now 2000 years of Christian belief does not interpret Revelations as your 19th century biblical interpretation.

I am not arrogant enough to claim any God-given powers to interpret Scripture as if it were God’s instructions to me. The only way to interpret Scripture is through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit, who inspired Scripture.

Please understand how arrogant/strange your claim seems to people who are not Catholic!
– you believe that for 2000 years via Peter you have sole rights to God’s Word, based on a strange interpretation of Scripture regarding the keys of the kingdom – please check the original Greek – it refers to Peter as a little pebble, and Jesus as the ROCK. Jesus never built any church on a fallible person like Peter – in fact Jesus instructed Peter: Get behind me Satan!; Peter was a racist, who refused to eat with Gentiles under peer pressure from the Jews; Peter later repented, and was crucified upside down at his own bidding, because he was so humble that he would not die like his Master…

Lets say (I don’t believe this) Jesus DID give Peter the keys to the kingdom, as you claim in quote no. 2. Let’s judge Peter’s successors by their ACTIONS – were they like Jesus?

• Could you imagine Peter giving instructions to hide the Bible for 1500 years from the ordinary man in the street, and to BURN AT THE STAKE ANYBODY WHO DARED DISOBEY?

Could you imagine Peter giving instruction to annihilate 1 million God-fearing Waldenses because they insisted on following the Bible instead of Peter/the Pope?

• Could you imagine Peter issuing an order to massacre 200 000 sincere Christians on St Bartholomew’s Day, and after this gruesome orgy commemmorate this wonderful achievement?

Could you imagine Peter claiming infallability, and at one stage have him involved in a holy war with another `Peter’, both of them calling each other the antichrist?

• Could you imagine Peter organizing his church so that there would be torture chambers in houses of worship, to sort out anybody who did not agree with him?

Please understand, I grew up under an evil system called apartheid. I do not take any responsibility for the atrocities committed by it’s leaders. But that does not mean I am to turn a blind eye to the wrongs of those leaders!. Likewise, I am not trying to down anybody’s religion, or hurt your feelings, but when you claim a pure undefiled direct connection with Jesus via chosen bishops, it seems to contradict the facts of history, and make me wonder how you come to such a conclusion.

Sincerely yours in Christ

Friedrich

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I am not arrogant enough to claim any God-given powers to interpret Scripture as if it were God’s instructions to me. The only way to interpret Scripture is through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit, who inspired Scripture.
Sincerely yours in Christ

Friedrich

So Friedrich,

Please clarify your statement above.

You do not claim any God-given powers to interprest Scripture as if they were God’s instructions to you. Yet I recall in an earlier post on this thread something you said about the Bible being like a car’s owner’s manual…which implies instructions.

But what confuses me is that then you say the ONLY way to interpret scripture is through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit…which seems to be nothing other than a “God-given”, or more accurately in the case of the Holy Spirit…God-sent power.

So am I to assume that you came to the conclusion that what the SDA church teaches for doctrines, were revealed to you, on your own, through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit ONLY. That without instruction from any other person or any other church authority, you alone, through prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit were able to interpret the books of Daniel and Revelation, and come to the same conclusions doctrinally as the SDA church? And that you also came to the same agreement on your own through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit with the rest of SDA teachings and doctrines?

And then how did you find the SDA church, which also agrees with your interpretations of scripture which you came to through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit?

Or could it be that someone, or many others, interpreted these doctrines that you believe, and then at some point you discovered these teachings and agreed with what these others were teaching and accepted their authority in proclaiming these doctrines as sound?

Just curious.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Please understand, I grew up under an evil system called apartheid. I do not take any responsibility for the atrocities committed by it’s leaders. But that does not mean I am to turn a blind eye to the wrongs of those leaders!. Likewise, I am not trying to down anybody’s religion, or hurt your feelings, but when you claim a pure undefiled direct connection with Jesus via chosen bishops, it seems to contradict the facts of history, and make me wonder how you come to such a conclusion.

Sincerely yours in Christ

Friedrich

Friedrich,

There is no doubt that evils have been performed by men in roles of leadership in churches. History bears that out for the Catholic Church, and the SDA church has had scandals too, and many other denominations. Any organization which is administered by and has members who are human are subject to succumbing to evil. I cannot think of any Church, or secular organization for that matter, which has not had problems resulting from the evil deeds of some people in their organizations. And evils performed reap unwanted results for a long long time. They do great damage to one’s cause, no matter how pure and holy the cause may be.

The most amazing fact is that God entrusts His work to fallen, sinful humans…but we are all He’s got to work with here…and that is why repentance and grace are so important. The Christian Church, from the time of Jesus throughout the past 2000 years has been healthy and vibrant, good and blessed, successful and thriving…AND…at times it has been sick and feeble, and at times near the point of death…and yet it has continued on in spite of man’s failings. WHY? Because God is in control, and it is GOD’S Church, The Bride of Christ, The Body of His beloved Son Jesus.

Yes, there have been problems in the Catholic Church in the past and in the present. And both John Paul II and Benedict VI have publicly apologized for those problems. And someone with more information please feel free to jump in regarding those apologies

I can’t claim a pure undefiled direct connection with Jesus via chosen bishops. I can’t even claim a pure undefiled direct connection with Jesus for myself. But I can follow a line of succession of leaders of the Christian Church, throughout history, Beginning with Peter and the apostles, through those leaders appointed by them, and those leaders appointed by them, and so on and on, down to now 2008. That is a fact, and it can be shown historically. The Church has been around and doing a lot before and after the year 1500.

God bless all!