Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Deconi]

Guys n Gals,

We all know what the SDAs teach and propogate about Catholicism. Protestant 101 is trying to present the positive side of SDAs, probably in an effort to focus on our similarities than on the differences.

I applaud you all ex SDAs for your hoensty in seeing the Truth apart from the glaring errors of SDAs. But, personally, I think your points are made and proven.

P-101 can do little but to present a positive side of SDA, but I’m sure he is aware of the amount of negatives he has to deliberately ignore in SDA in order to do so.

My point is, let’s not resort to kicking a man when he’s down. The rich tapestry of Catholicism is able to answer the entirety of SDA errors about Her and then some, but I doubt that that is what She is about. All we can do is light up the errors and expose them for what they are. It is up to the ‘enquirer’ to accept or deny. Clearly, denial is the option at the moment. Perhaps we should afford breathing space for a man to reflect and re-examine his position.

There is nothing to fear for there is no argument that can be brought forth that The Catholic Church has not had to deal with in Her Life, nor an erroneous assertion that She cannot answer.

Half of my maternal side are SDAs in its variety of branches, so the assertions that ‘we’ are not abreast of current teachings of the SDAs is wishful. I personally know the man who is ‘second in command’ (I refused to call him bishop) of the SDA Church in the southern Hemisphere. In regards their anti-Catholicism, nothing has changed. But some of the doctrines may have ‘evolved’ that some in my family are a little confused about SDAs. I’d imagine that as indicative of the church worldwide.

Hope and Pray.
Hope and Pray.

 

[Protestant101]

To all,

[It] will be up to each person to decide for themselves.

God bless all!!

My my, some of the last posts in this thread are quite the production indeed. Of course; you continue to garner your accolades from your fellow Catholics, but I know for a fact that not all Catholics would see things as your are trying to relate. I was just told by a board member here that my challenges “make me think and study more, and helps me when I witness to people to be more Biblical.”

I agree, that the facts, when they come out in their entirety, will then be up to each person to decide upon.

I have seen many try to discredit a denomination they don’t like by cherry-picking any snippets they can dif up which appear to give credence to their cherished ideas, such as has been done here. I see you would really like to draw me into a great debate about it all; but I am not really too worried about such accusations or insinuations. I feel no burden, see no need to argue away all your fine points here.

I will say one thing to all the “theology” presented here: Contrary to catholic opinions expressed here, it certainly is not unusual for the Bible to refer to Kings or Kingdoms as various types of animals/beasts, and sometimes as the “horns” of the beast, or even worse names.

But I have not yet seen one single Catholic, not even the Pope, explain Revelation 13 in detail; and if one tries to pin a Catholic down to any views on this, as expressed currently by Catholic theologians in the various media available; it is quickly proscribed as “private revelation;” and not really something that can be proven for sure.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Deconi

I have not been on this thread for a very long time, and was shocked at the horrible atmosphere pervading all discussions, it sounds like a wrestling match!

But thank you for being a true, loving Christian in your gentle reply. I am too busy chatting with Patrick on the Sunday/Sabbath thread right now to get involved here, but even to my fellow SDA (I think) called Protestant 101 – Brother, you love your faith, and that is good, but NEVER resort to the kind of bickering I have just read – God does not approve of that, no matter what the discussion touches on…

God bless

Friedrich

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

But I have not yet seen one single Catholic, not even the Pope, explain Revelation 13 in detail; and if one tries to pin a Catholic down to any views on this, as expressed currently by Catholic theologians in the various media available; it is quickly proscribed as “private revelation;” and not really something that can be proven for sure.

I am one Catholic who will be happy to be your huckleberry for Revelations 13. IF you want to stay away from private revelations or personal interpretations of Revelations 13, then it is not very hard to take the first century interpretation of Revelations. But you will find (learn) that it was not the Papacy that was mortally wounded, for it was the Catholic church, Papacy that was underground being pursued by a beast. I prefer the first century interpretation to Revelations 13, when it was written and not an interpretation 1900 years later after the fact which cannot be supported by the whole context of the bible from a historical truth.

If your comment is a challenge to Catholics on the first century interpretation to Revelations 13, I accept. If your challenge is SDA 19th century interpretation of Revelations 13, from the amazing facts bible study guide. I as a Catholic do not have a new 19th century interpretation Rev.13 as you do. But I can compare your personal interpretation of Rev.13 to the first century Christians who witnessed it, and who wrote it down in scripture for you to see today, not interpret it to a new invented interpretation.

Just a side note; Revelations was written to warn the Catholic church and to give the heavenly descritptions of the eyewitness account of what takes place in the earthly (Mass) liturgies in the Catholic church which participates with the heavenly Liturgies before God. It was not written to tell you 1900 years later that Peter, present day Pope, was going to be a beast, the letter of Revelations was written so that the Pope and Magesterium can withstand the persecution they were experiencing in the first century, to comfort, solidify and promise the Martyrs which were the first 30 Popes, and bishops a place under the altar of God.

If I dont hear from you I will take it that you dont accept the challenge from this Catholic.

Peace be with you

 

[Deconi]

Dear Deconi

I have not been on this thread for a very long time, and was shocked at the horrible atmosphere pervading all discussions, it sounds like a wrestling match!

But thank you for being a true, loving Christian in your gentle reply. I am too busy chatting with Patrick on the Sunday/Sabbath thread right now to get involved here, but even to my fellow SDA (I think) called Protestant 101 – Brother, you love your faith, and that is good, but NEVER resort to the kind of bickering I have just read – God does not approve of that, no matter what the discussion touches on…

God bless

Friedrich

I ‘hate’ you, Friedrich. I have to say that to overcome the hugging urge I have towards you, in case ‘onlookers’ only see man-love at play!

Seriously though, keep your eyes on Christ and just work towards Him and don’t be surprised when you look down to find your feet in a Catholic Church aisle towards The Eucharist Communion…whenever it occurs!

“Through Him, With Him, In Him…”

 

[Protestant101]

Dear Deconi

(I think) called Protestant 101 – Brother, you love your faith, and that is good, but NEVER resort to the kind of bickering I have just read – God does not approve of that, no matter what the discussion touches on…

God bless Friedrich

Well; whatever you are calling “bickering” you will have to tell me via PM I guess. I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Protestant101]

Dear Deconi

I have not been on this thread for a very long time, and was shocked at the horrible atmosphere pervading all discussions, it sounds like a wrestling match!

Friedrich

“pervading all discussions;” such as what? You are being unfair, politely, of course.

 

[Protestant101]

You asked what the Catholic Church teaches about protestants. Well, I have not yet come across any teachings by the Catholic Church about protestants. It has been my observation and experience that they pretty much are not concerned about protestants one way or the other. The priest I met with, I had to call. We met, he told me that I should pray about what to do and that he would be there if I needed him. I never heard from him again for about six months, and that is when I called him again. Had I met with a SDA or other fundamentalist, my phone would have been ringing each day with follow up.

Take care and God bless you 101!

You have provided many examples of what the Catholic Church teaches about Adventists. Your statement beginning in bolded red gives your “audience” here some good clues.

The general attitude you have towards us, stems from something you have been “taught” about us. Would you care to tell us what that is? Of course, during your holiday, you have had some time to come up with more accusations about me personally, or about Adventist corporately. But all I can say is they had better be good! The ones you have brought up so far are getting pretty stale!

I figure that maybe in another year or so of me being here, you will eventually run out of accusations and character smears; and then we will be able to get down to some descent doctrinal/theological discussions. You have made it obvious to me both public and private that you hate my guts; or, atleast thats how you feel about my Church, but none of your barbs here intimidate me in the least. In fact, they tell me that your Biblical knowledge of Adventist doctrines and beliefs is fading, and definitely out of touch. I will start a separate topic soon about some of your comments above.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Pardon the interruption for a semi-off thread announcement.

Since this thread contains many current and former SDAs, I just wanted you to know that I have begun a Yahoo Group named Current and Former SDAs Talk. If anyone is interested come sign up.

We may now return to defaming each other’s religion.

 

[Protestant101]

Pardon the interruption for a semi-off thread announcement.

Since this thread contains many current and former SDAs, I just wanted you to know that I have begun a Yahoo Group named Current and Former SDAs Talk. If anyone is interested come sign up.

We may now return to defaming each other’s religion.

This is very exciting news! Oh! I can hardly wait to join!!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Wow, so much information, and so much misunderstanding on both sides. I haven’t posted in awhile on this site because I’ve been doing a lot of research, as has been recommended by so many of our Catholic friends. Believe me it has been enlightening and when I have completed what I am studying I will share what I have learned, however, the time is not yet as it is still incomplete. But, it looks as if some clearification needs to be made on the “Commandments” issue. Please bear with me as it does look as if this horse has been beaten to death. But what you all don’t seem to realize, Catholic and Adventist alike, is that the commandments were in existance long before God gave them to Moses.

I ask that you all think about what Paul said the Laws were for. They reveal sin. Without the law there is no sin. Consider now, who was the first sinner? Think again, it wasn’t Eve. Got it. Before the foundation of the world the Law was. It is the Law of God’s Government.

As to the two new commandments, we need to read about this in Matt. 22:34-40 "But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying. Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all they heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment, And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Now another question, are these really new? The answer is “NO”. This is quoted by Jesus directly from the Old Testament. Nothing new about them, but for us and the Jew they sum up and strength the complete list of the law, no matter how you number them.

If the law, the ones recognized as the Ten Commandments, are the laws of God’s government, established from the beginning, for both man and Angels, why then would 1. God change them or 2. God abolish them? All one need do is to make thorough reading of scripture to see that the laws were in existance long before Moses was even born. You all seem to think, at least by what you have written, that the laws of God only came into existance when they were received by Moses.

If that is the case then God is an unjust god. For he would have punished Adam and Eve with out the force of law. He condemned Cain when Cain would have had no sin, for there would have been no law to reveal sin. And all the innocent people that died in the flood when there would have been no law to reveal their transgressions. No my friends. God is just and his righteousness is in his law and ever will be.

As to being “under” the law, I think a clearification is needed here as well. When Paul speaks of not being under the law, I believe what he is saying is we are not under the “condmenation” of the law. For those without Christ are still condemned by the law which means that the law is still in affect. Thank God for his Son and the Grace that his blood emparts to us that we can live with assuarance that our transgressions are forgiven. Remember, also that we are not free to therefore ignore the law, but rather, because of Grace and through the power of the Holy Spirit and the love that is bestowed upon us from our Father in heaven, we can become obedient to him and discontinue our transgression, this being our acknowledgement to him through our love.

I hope that wasn’t too confusing.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

But what you all don’t seem to realize, Catholic and Adventist alike, is that the commandments were in existance long before God gave them to Moses.

Sabbath Keeper:

Actually, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says this quite clearly. In fact, any one given time would come up with these same commandments on their own. They can be found in natural moral law. This is why other world religions unaware of the Judeo-Christian ethic have these same laws.

The Code of Hammurabi which predates Moses by several hundred years included the 10 Commandments.

Marsha

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Wow, so much information, and so much misunderstanding on both sides. I haven’t posted in awhile on this site because I’ve been doing a lot of research, as has been recommended by so many of our Catholic friends. Believe me it has been enlightening and when I have completed what I am studying I will share what I have learned, however, the time is not yet as it is still incomplete. But, it looks as if some clearification needs to be made on the “Commandments” issue. Please bear with me as it does look as if this horse has been beaten to death. But what you all don’t seem to realize, Catholic and Adventist alike, is that the commandments were in existance long before God gave them to Moses.

Hello Sabbath Keeper,

It is nice to read your well thought out post here! I don’t think the “horse” of discussion of the Commandments has been beaten to death as much as clear communication and dialog has been challenged to the point of near extinction. It is refreshing to read your thoughts and post…that’s what we are here for. We can discuss and dialog for the rest of our lives, as long as we discuss and dialog…so thank you again for the clear expression of your thoughts! Below are a few thoughts I’ll share, and we can continue to discuss!

I ask that you all think about what Paul said the Laws were for. They reveal sin. Without the law there is no sin. Consider now, who was the first sinner? Think again, it wasn’t Eve. Got it. Before the foundation of the world the Law was. It is the Law of God’s Government…

You raise very interesting points here as to who was the first to sin; what is the purpose of the law according to Paul; and what Law, or laws, were/are in place, or established:

1. before the foundation of the world,
2. at the creation of this world,
3. throughout the salvation history of God’s people (His sons and daughters) after the fall until the life, death, resurrection, and second coming of the Messiah, and
4. after the earth is made new for God’s people (His sons and daughters).

Let’s take a look at the first sinner, Lucifer, and what the Law was in heaven that he violated. And much of this is speculation on my part since I am not aware of any documentation in the Bible that specifies what the Law in heaven was when Lucifer rebelled. Was it the 10 Commandments that we find in Exodus 20? I don’t know if it was all 10, or some of the 10, or 100 or more. I would have to lean to the assumption that it wasn’t all 10 as found in Exodus 20, since there is a commandment against adultery, and from what I’ve read in the Bible regarding our life in heaven and the new earth, there is no marriage, rather we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:29—30). Lucifer was an angel. So that now leaves us with 9. If there was no marriage, then it would be difficult to covet an angel’s wife, or husband, so now we are down to 8. If there were no marriages, then there would be no offspring, and thus no need to honor their father and mother, so now we are down to 7. However, if we consider God the Father as the Bible teaches, then I suppose we could argue that He should be honored as The Father, so now we are back to 8. However, that commandment is conditional so that we may live long in the land the Lord was giving His people on this earth, so back down to 7.

I think it is difficult to assert with confidence that the Law of Heaven, during the time of Lucifer’s rebellion, was the 10 Commandments as found in Exodus 20. So what was the law in heaven that Lucifer violated? While there is no record of a heavenly eternal law (like the 10 commandments) that I am aware of, what is the greatest eternal characteristic of the essence of God? I would say that it would have to be that God is love.

“1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

“1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.”

I would have to conclude that Lucifer’s rebellion resulted from his rejection of love for his Father, God…a violation of the law of love rather than a violation of written codes or ordinances. Lucifer was not so much an Out-law, as an Out-Love. I would also have to conclude that our sins are the result of an absence of God’s love in us. And no amount of law keeping will give us that love, but only the indwelling of God in us through the Holy Spirit and the transforming, renewing, regenerating, miracle that occurs with that…the new birth in Christ.

So when God set about creating our world, and knowing that Lucifer was out and about with his angels after being cast out of heaven, what laws were put in place for man and woman at creation? Only one that I’m aware of, and that was to not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen.2:15-17). That was the only “law”, everything else that was shared between man, woman, and God was love. Marriage between man and woman was love, the work of tending the garden was love, walking and talking and communing with God the Father was love.
And then the fall of man occurred. It was after sin entered that God began to give laws. And the more sin entered the history of man, the more laws were specified. The farther away that man moved from God and love, the more laws were required. Sabbath Keeper, you said that “without the law there is no sin”, and yet it wasn’t until there was sin that the law appeared. Sin was not so much the result of a lack of obedience to law, but a result of a lack of love.

The history of the Old Testament dealt with many laws for God’s people. Jesus summed up all those laws into two laws, both of which were about love. Love of God and Love of fellow humans. The farther away from God and His love that we move, the more laws appear for us to follow. The closer we move toward God and His love, and communion with Him and each other, the less laws appear for us to follow. Salvation and communion with God and Godly life is about love, God’s love, not laws. And yet God’s love is the supreme law, and God used laws to teach us about His love, but salvation, communion,and relatinship with God is about love, not laws. And one day we will be restored to the full communion with God in His love, for Him and for each other.
And yet it is not so much the laws that God gave throughout salvation history as it is the covenants He made with His people throughout salvation history. Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and finally the last and most complete covenant which we enter as adopted sons and daughters through Jesus because of His life, death, resurrection, and high priesthood.
Love is the fulfillment of the law.

"Romans 13: 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself. 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

"Galatians 5: 13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

As to being “under” the law, I think a clearification is needed here as well. When Paul speaks of not being under the law, I believe what he is saying is we are not under the “condmenation” of the law. For those without Christ are still condemned by the law which means that the law is still in affect. Thank God for his Son and the Grace that his blood emparts to us that we can live with assuarance that our transgressions are forgiven. Remember, also that we are not free to therefore ignore the law, but rather, because of Grace and through the power of the Holy Spirit and the love that is bestowed upon us from our Father in heaven, we can become obedient to him and discontinue our transgression, this being our acknowledgement to him through our love.

AMEN!!

I hope that wasn’t too confusing.

It wasn’t!

 

[Protestant101]

Hello Sabbath Keeper,

I think it is difficult to assert with confidence that the Law of Heaven, during the time of Lucifer’s rebellion, was the 10 Commandments as found in Exodus 20. So what was the law in heaven that Lucifer violated? While there is no record of a heavenly eternal law (like the 10 commandments) that I am aware of, what is the greatest eternal characteristic of the essence of God? I would say that it would have to be that God is love.

“1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

Howdy Patrick;

I hope you had a good vacation. But I’ll bet I got a better sun tan than you because I am a trucker (for now) and the sun shines on me all day through glass!

I think that you are on the right track when you say “God is love” would be “the greatest eternal characteristic” of God; yet I would extend this further to include the whole picture of that wonderful principle.

The Bible puts it like this:

“God is love” (1 Jo.4:8)
“Love never fails” (1 Cor.13:8)

This makes the principle complete; and in line with Adventist’s thinking about the law. For now; lets assume “the law” means the Ten Commandments which, in essence, are a transcript of God’s character. Since God is love and love never fails; some Adventists continue to ask; why do so many say that the law somehow “failed” and that God had to do away with it? Which part of God’s character did Jesus “do away with” on the cross? Do you see where I am coming from? Which part of God’s character “failed?”

Personally; I don’t think it is hard at all to discern “the law of heaven.” When Lucifer said “I will be like the Most High;” which of the Ten Commandments did he break? (HINT = all 10). The Bible says if you break one; you break them all.

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Lucifer had “I” trouble. Which commandment do we break when we have the same?

It is really interesting to note that when Lucifer said "I will be like the Most High that there is a remarkable resemblance between this language and that used in 2Th_2:4, in regard to antichrist:

‘He, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.’ And this similarity is the more remarkable, because antichrist is represented, in Rev_17:4-5, as seated in babylon - the spiritual seat of arrogance, oppression, and pride. It is likely that Paul had this passage in Isaiah in his mind when he penned his description of antichrist.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Let’s take a look at the first sinner, Lucifer, and what the Law was in heaven that he violated. And much of this is speculation on my part since I am not aware of any documentation in the Bible that specifies what the Law in heaven was when Lucifer rebelled. Was it the 10 Commandments that we find in Exodus 20? I don’t know if it was all 10, or some of the 10, or 100 or more. I would have to lean to the assumption that it wasn’t all 10 as found in Exodus 20, since there is a commandment against adultery, and from what I’ve read in the Bible regarding our life in heaven and the new earth, there is no marriage, rather we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:29—30). Lucifer was an angel. So that now leaves us with 9. If there was no marriage, then it would be difficult to covet an angel’s wife, or husband, so now we are down to 8. If there were no marriages, then there would be no offspring, and thus no need to honor their father and mother, so now we are down to 7. However, if we consider God the Father as the Bible teaches, then I suppose we could argue that He should be honored as The Father, so now we are back to 8. However, that commandment is conditional so that we may live long in the land the Lord was giving His people on this earth, so back down to 7.

I think it is difficult to assert with confidence that the Law of Heaven, during the time of Lucifer’s rebellion, was the 10 Commandments as found in Exodus 20. So what was the law in heaven that Lucifer violated? While there is no record of a heavenly eternal law (like the 10 commandments) that I am aware of, what is the greatest eternal characteristic of the essence of God? I would say that it would have to be that God is love.

I agree that Lucifer no longer loved God. There is no argument there. And, yes, to love God with all our heart and mind is THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT. But how do we love God? I guess you missed it when I stated, paripharsing scripture, that we show our love by being obedient to his commandment, all of them. Including the ones passed down by Christ through his Apostles, these are written in the Epistles if your wondering.

As to Lucifer’s violation of which law, let’s look specifically at Three. Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not bear false witness and thou shalt not covet thy neighbors “property”.

Let’s take the covet one first. We read in Isaiah the story of Lucifer’s fall. In it we learn that he not only wanted but greatly desired Gods throne. Even being in the exaluted postion he was he was not satisfied, but coveted the throne of God stating, “I shall be like the God most High.” From there he went to:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Boom, he made himself into a god, boasting the he could do a better job at being god than God. Basically he originated the belief, “I am God” that so many follow today. Hence he formented:

Thou shalt not bear false witness. He accused God of being unjust, that he restricted the freedoms of the angels and all the host of heaven. Due to these accusations and lies war broke out in heaven and as a result 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven and where did they go?..

We on this insignificant little planet are currently suffering because of that war in heaven. I thank God that the suffering will soon be over. We of Christ know from wince comes our salvation and our hope.

As you can see at least three of the said 10 commandments must have been in effect or else there would have been transgressions against God by Lucifer, unless you’re suggesting that God only implemented them AFTER Lucifer’s transgression which would not make any since because Lucifer would not have known he was transgressing, and I assure you, he did, or else he would have not been so underhanded in his dealings and he would have heeded to the other angels exhortations to repent.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I think that you are on the right track when you say “God is love” would be “the greatest eternal characteristic” of God; yet I would extend this further to include the whole picture of that wonderful principle.

The Bible puts it like this:

“God is love” (1 Jo.4:8)
“Love never fails” (1 Cor.13:8)

Yes this is the greatest of the Greatness of God. The Greatest cannot be extended, otherwise it would not be the “greatEST”.

“Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

All the Law and Prophets HANG on these two commandments. Love, Godly love, is the support and foundation from, and, to which the Law and Prophets proceed and point.

What is the purpose of the law?

Romans 3:20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Galatians 3:19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

This makes the principle complete; and in line with Adventist’s thinking about the law. For now; lets assume “the law” means the Ten Commandments which, in essence, are a transcript of God’s character. Since God is love and love never fails; some Adventists continue to ask; why do so many say that the law somehow “failed” and that God had to do away with it? Which part of God’s character did Jesus “do away with” on the cross? Do you see where I am coming from? Which part of God’s character “failed?”)

I see where you are coming from, but fail to see how you come to the conclusion you do.

In the Bible we find:

1. God is love.
2. Love never fails
3. God never fails
4. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

In the Bible I cannot find:

1. God is law
2. Love is law
3. Law never fails
4. Law is the fulfillment of love.

The 10 commandments in the law given to Moses by God in the covenant they made came 20 plus generations after Adam. They were not the end in themselves for Moses and his people, they were a means of education to bring God’s people back to God’s love, and communion in God’s love, the foundation upon which the law hangs.

Personally; I don’t think it is hard at all to discern “the law of heaven.” When Lucifer said “I will be like the Most High;” which of the Ten Commandments did he break? (HINT = all 10). The Bible says if you break one; you break them all.?")

The 10 commandments were given to fallen humans. As shown in my post above all 10 could not have applied to angels, since they don’t marry or have children. It is not so much discernment, as speculation about what the law of heaven was…although I tend to go with the Law of Love = The Law of God, since God eternal is eternal love.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I agree that Lucifer no longer loved God. There is no argument there. And, yes, to love God with all our heart and mind is THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT. But how do we love God? I guess you missed it when I stated, paripharsing scripture, that we show our love by being obedient to his commandment, all of them. Including the ones passed down by Christ through his Apostles, these are written in the Epistles if your wondering.

No I didn’t miss what you were saying. Here is where the commands of God are found when He met with men and women face to face to teach them…and us from the documentation of that event.

Matthew 5-7

Also, an important teaching about how we are to love God is found in Matthew 25, especially verses 31-46.

As to Lucifer’s violation of which law, let’s look specifically at Three. Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not bear false witness and thou shalt not covet thy neighbors “property”.

Let’s take the covet one first. We read in Isaiah the story of Lucifer’s fall. In it we learn that he not only wanted but greatly desired Gods throne. Even being in the exaluted postion he was he was not satisfied, but coveted the throne of God stating, “I shall be like the God most High.” From there he went to:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Boom, he made himself into a god, boasting the he could do a better job at being god than God. Basically he originated the belief, “I am God” that so many follow today. Hence he formented:

Thou shalt not bear false witness. He accused God of being unjust, that he restricted the freedoms of the angels and all the host of heaven. Due to these accusations and lies war broke out in heaven and as a result 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven and where did they go?..

We on this insignificant little planet are currently suffering because of that war in heaven. I thank God that the suffering will soon be over. We of Christ know from wince comes our salvation and our hope.

I understand what you are saying, but I would have to disagree that we on this planet are currently suffering because of that war in heaven. God was well aware of the threat posed to Adam and Eve by Satan when God created this planet. God in his love and infinite wisdom put in place a safeguard for Adam and Eve to avoid partaking in that war. He gave them all creation and one command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Had they obeyed that one command, we would not be suffering and in the condition we find ourselves in on this planet. But they disobeyed and failed by their own choice. We are suffering today because of our first parents choice, and the choices we as individuals make…not because of the war in heaven initiated by Lucifer. And God in His eternal love and infinite wisdom has put a safeguard in place for us, a means of escape from the suffering, sin, and death of this planet…Praise God!!!

To blame our situation on that war sounds much like what someone else said when asked by God as to why they ate the fruit…“The serpent deceived me, and I ate” she said. It wasn’t Lucifer or Adam who said that. Got it.

As you can see at least three of the said 10 commandments must have been in effect or else there would have been transgressions against God by Lucifer, unless you’re suggesting that God only implemented them AFTER Lucifer’s transgression which would not make any since because Lucifer would not have known he was transgressing, and I assure you, he did, or else he would have not been so underhanded in his dealings and he would have heeded to the other angels exhortations to repent.

Ok, I can see that at least three of the 10 commandments may have been in effect, which is down 4 from my 7 yesterday…the farther back we go and the closer to God we imagine, the number keeps decreasing. Yet I don’t see any evidence that the law in heaven was the 10 commandments, which is not to say that the law given to Moses was not based on principles of heavenly law or God’s love for fallen man. It is only to say that I see no Biblical evidence that the 10 commandments of Exodus 20, were the sum of heavenly law at the time of Lucifer’s rebellion. In fact there is no Biblical evidence that the 10 commandments were in effect before they were given to Moses…and that covers the span of 20 plus generations from the time of Adam.

So I guess what I’m suggesting is that the 10 commandments were implemented when they were given to Moses by God for the covenant they made, which was long long after the fall of man…according to the Bible.

And please believe me and understand that the lack of the 10 commandments, as found in Exodus 20, in heaven during Lucifer’s rebellion in no way clouded the issues for Lucifer. Whatever governed God’s creatures before the creation of this world was well known and understood by Lucifer I’m sure. He was not uninformed regarding his choice and rebellion. He knew what he was doing.

God bless all!!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

To apply the ten commandment law to the angels in heave makes no sense to me. They just don’t apply to immortal sinless beings. So I am going to go way out on a limb here and say that if there was a law in heaven then it must have be the NEW commandment that Jesus gave His disciples: Love God and your neighbor as your self.

 

[Protestant101]

Yes this is the greatest of the Greatness of God. The Greatest cannot be extended, otherwise it would not be the “greatEST”.

“Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

“Extended” does not mean as in adding something to the greatest commandment; rather; I had intended it to indicate that “Love never fails” is an indivisible part of it. In a collective sense, there are a number of different Bible texts which all speak to the “greatest commandment” so that we may correctly understand it.

The idea about this “commandment of love” being literally “new” is a common confusion seen on both sides of the fence here.

I am considering purchasing a “new” Van; it is a 1954 GMC. Is it literally new? No. But it’s new for me, to me, because I have never owned it before.

When the “new commandment of love” was given to the disciples; Jesus knew it was not literally “new” but He also knew that this was something the disciples had not previously practiced, and so the “greatest commandment” was indeed “new” to them.

The reason we can know that it is not literally “new” is that it can be traced back way into the Old Testament too.

Of course; God is not the law. But is this the point to be made here? The law has always been in existence. It always will be. None of us were there with angels to see "what laws they had/have; but that doesn’t even matter. God doesn’t hold us responsible for what we don’t know, and He clearly tells us that His ten commandments are for us to obey. All ten of them.