Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Patrick_Murebil]

Actually, this is not quite how it is, although there is agreement on the fact that the foundation of God’s kingdom is based upon “eternal love.” As a Seventh-day Adventist; I was not taught to separate the two in quite the way you have above; for the Bible tells us that God’s law is based upon love; and that His law is ALWAYS needed…

Hi,

Would you please provide some scripture references regarding your last sentence above. Mostly I am interested in reading scriptres about “His law is ALWAYS needed”. I believe that God’s laws are based on His love.

I would greatly appreciate some scripture references as to:

What laws are ALWAYS needed?

(Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.)

So one real difference between us would simply be in the understanding of God’s law itself. Laws cannot be “dispensed with” just because there is “love” in the air. What kind of society would we have if this was so?.

That is an extremely great question! And I spent some time reflecting on this. Here are my thoughts:

I live in the U.S., and I don’t know this for sure, but it seems to me that we have perhaps more laws than anyone else in the world. We have volumes and volumes of Federal laws. I feel certain that if all of our laws were enforced, every citizen in this country would either be heavily fined or in jail. Then we have volumes and volumes of state laws, which if all were enforced would leave the citizen in no better shape than the results of enforcing all the Federal laws. And then we get down to County and City laws, and even down to Neighborhood restrcitions.

And with this myriad of laws before us each day in my country, we have angry interactions among drivers on our roads, violent attacks on public transportation systems, in schools, in stores, on the streets (and now the big thing for the criminals is to video tape their savage actions and celebrate them), we have murders, rapes, robberies…we have business contracts broken and ignored…we seem hellbent on endless military invasions of middle eastern countries (and now even talk of military entanglements with Russia…God help us). We probably have more laws than people in this country. And with all these laws there is no prevention, nor cure, for all the pain and injury we inflict on each other as citizens within our own country or the pain and injury we readily inflict on populations outside of country. And based on my observations and reading, many, if not all of the other countries in the world have similar or worse conditions…and all have laws…some even have armies enforcing the laws on their citizens.

So, as I reflect upon societies as they are with laws, I am not real impressed with our human solutions.

So, now as I reflect on a society with all of the laws gone with nothing left but “love in the air” I see a wonderful, peaceful, cooperative, charitable, and desireable society. And when I talk of love in my posts, I am talking about the love that only comes from God through His Son Jesus Christ. I have seen Christian love in action…in the Seventh day Adventist Church, in the Roman Catholic Church, in the Orthodox Church, in the Baptist Church, in the Lutheran Church, in the many non-demominational churches…and you know what…I would prefer to live in a society with those folks who love as Jesus loved than any society without that love. Imagine commuters being polite to each other on the road, imagine people caring more about others than they do about themselves, imagine the acheivments in a society with love in the air leading to mutual cooperation for the betterment of all.

If I had the choice between law and love…I would have to choose love.

1 John 3:11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

This is my goal through Jesus. I am not there yet, but that is no reason to give up the goal…after all, with God all things are possible.

(see part 2)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Part 2

I believe that huge problems are caused when we teach young people that God has for whatever reasons, ‘cancelled’ His law, and has just ordered everyone to ‘love one another.’

Please believe me when I tell you that I don’t believe the law is cancelled…but I do believe that the Jesus “ordered”, commanded everyone to love one another…John 13:34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Take a look at Romans 13:8; 1 Peter 1:22; 1 John 3:11; 1 John 3:23; 1 John 4:7; 1 John 4:11; 1 John 4:12; 2 John 1:5

How can we even know what that means without God’s law? How can young people be expected to behave when all the adults tell them that the law is not important to God anymore?

Jesus is how we know what that means. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Jesus is the fulfillment of all the law and the prophets. It is Jesus…His life, His example, His teachings, His Spirit…Him in us and us in Him…one Body…one Truth…Jesus is the Truth!

This whole thing about God or us not needing ‘the law’ if there is love present is just so far out in left field that it is impossible to believe

Romans 13:8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

Nothing is impossible with God…but in order to love the way Jesus taught, it is imperative that we are “IN HIM” and that He is “IN US”. Eternal life only comes when we accept His life and become a member of His Body!!

What a wonderful and glorious society that is!!! Then love is not only in the air…it is in all who are one with Jesus…it is in all the parts of the one and same Body!! That is our eternal life…our calling in this life. Nothing can defeat that but our own unwillingness to become a part of, a member of Jesus’ Body.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I’m a bit disappointed that my posts placed MarysRoses posts on the previous page. For anyone just coming upon my posts here on the last page, MarysRoses posts ARE A MUST READ!!!

They are Post # 418, 419, and 420…and perhaps the best explanation that I have ever read!!

 

[Protestant101]

I’m a bit disappointed that my posts placed MarysRoses posts on the previous page. For anyone just coming upon my posts here on the last page, MarysRoses posts ARE A MUST READ!!!

They are Post # 418, 419, and 420…and perhaps the best explanation that I have ever read!!

Howdy Patrick; I agree, Marys Roses did a lot of work to post and explain her views. While I do see some things that are not correctly stated in her posts; I have to keep my comments brief - due to time limitations.

I actually found it disappointing that you both chose to attack the fourth commandment in your posts above, for I actually had no intentions of mentioning that one in particular, and I believe that the key issues at stake here could be discussed, using any one of the ten commandments. A correct understanding of Adventist understanding on “the law” would show that all ten commandments are of equal importance.

Now I am sure that you Marys Roses, and others have read the great challenges of some of our Adventist pioneers who offered various amounts of money for “the missing text;” usually concerning the fourth commandment? I would be prepared to extend that to all of the commandments and offer my next paycheck to anyone who can prove from the Bible that any of the ten commandments are NOT equal in importance to the nine others of the ten.

To be more blunt about it; both of our respective churches cannot deny the gross rejection of the seventh commandment. There are disgusting track records on both sides with this one. Why doesn’t anyone want to talk about this “new commandment of love” as it regards the seventh commandment? Why do you always single out the fourth commandment?

Further; I would like to ask you Patrick, what is your current understanding of the “new commandment of love?” Is it different now, than it was when you were an Adventist? If so, how, and why? Do you see it as something DIFFERENT than the ten commandments?

I see this word “new” as used in the text about the “new commandment of love” being totally abused and misinterpreted to the point where we, the churches, are preaching to society that "the law of God, our Creator has been “done away with” and “no longer applies to Christians,” - and therefore to anyone else. Society has not gotten a pretty message from the major churches within Christianity; and I see this as being directly related to this amazing fact that the “Christians” of the world, in essence, deny the authority of one or more of God’s commandments with the excuse text about “the new commandment of love.” That is such a wonderful text; but it has been so abused by so many!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I actually found it disappointing that you both chose to attack the fourth commandment in your posts above, for I actually had no intentions of mentioning that one in particular, and I believe that the key issues at stake here could be discussed, using any one of the ten commandments. A correct understanding of Adventist understanding on “the law” would show that all ten commandments are of equal importance.!

Hi 101,

Please don’t be disappointed, because I don’t think either MarysRoses or I were “attacking” the fourth commandment. In fact if you read her posts (and I agree with her) the Ten Commandments are very important for Christians…ALL 10!!! Her brilliant expostion regarding the fourth commandment was dealing with the saturday/sunday issue, NOT the validity of the moral teaching associated with it.

As for all the commandments being of equal importance, I refer you to Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Now I am sure that you Marys Roses, and others have read the great challenges of some of our Adventist pioneers who offered various amounts of money for “the missing text;” usually concerning the fourth commandment? I would be prepared to extend that to all of the commandments and offer my next paycheck to anyone who can prove from the Bible that any of the ten commandments are NOT equal in importance to the nine others of the ten.!

Since Adventists believe (and I would agree) that the first four commandments are associated with Matthew 22:37,38, and the last six are associated with Matthew 22:39…I will send you a private message with an address to which you can mail me your next paycheck!!! Well actually, I’m not a betting man, so you can donate your paycheck to the Catholic Answers website…we’ll let the judges decide all that.

Actually the offer of money, that you mention above, for the “missing text” was to anyone who could prove from the NT that the sabbath was changed to sunday.

You are correct there is no where in the NT where Jesus commands us to keep holy the first day of the week. There are 12 verses in the NT that use the phrase “first day” and only 8 of them are speaking about the first day of the week.

I would ask you to show me one place in the NT where our Saviour commands us to keep holy the seventh day of the week. You can’t…and the interesting fact is that there are 57 verses in the NT that mention the word sabbath, and 1 verse that mentions the phrase “seventh day” 2 times. Yet in all of those verses you will not find Jesus or the apostles commanding or teaching anyone to keep holy the sabbath or the seventh day of the week.

So what are we to make of this? What is the meaning of this? Perhaps the answer lies in the Old and the New Covenants. While God does not alter a covenant He makes, I’m sure you know that God will make other covenants(Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, David, the Isrealites, the Chruch), and in this case, in the NT, He made a New Covenant with those who believe in Him.

MarysRoses three posts explaining this are right on target because they are scriptural. Otherwise, you will need to explain why the 10 Commandments in Exodus differ in wording from the 10 Commandments found in Dueteronomy.

It is interesting that the most forceful argument in the NT for keeping saturday holy is: Mark 4:16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.

And I’m sure you know what “custom” means, but just for the post here’s the definition:

Custom = cus·tom (kstm) n.

1. A practice followed by people of a particular group or region.
2. A habitual practice of a person: my custom of reading a little before sleep. See Synonyms at habit.
3. Law A common tradition or usage so long established that it has the force or validity of law.

Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day as was His custom, practice, habit, tradition, based on the Old Covenant which He fulfilled perfectly. His resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church was the initiation of the New Covenant!

Again, go read MarysRoses’ posts…she brilliantly describes the “It is written’s” and “Thus saith the Lord’s” on this matter from the scriptures in the only way that makes sense.

Jesus life and death and most importantly His resurrection take prominance over any one day of the week. This is what Jesus was trying to teach the religious leaders regarding the sabbath in the Gospels, and what Paul writes about in Hebrews chapter 4…the new day given to God’s people is “TODAY”…today is the day of salvation…each and every day. MarysRoses brilliantly explains the moral law, the fourth commandment, as it pertains to Christians in the New Covenant relationship with God.

If you would like, I would be more than happy to provide a list of the scriptures from the NT that mention the word “sabbath” and “first day”…all 58 of them!

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi 101,

Please don’t be disappointed, because I don’t think either MarysRoses or I were “attacking” the fourth commandment. In fact if you read her posts (and I agree with her) the Ten Commandments are very important for Christians…ALL 10!!! Her brilliant expostion regarding the fourth commandment was dealing with the saturday/sunday issue, NOT the validity of the moral teaching associated with it.

As for all the commandments being of equal importance, I refer you to Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

MarysRoses three posts explaining this are right on target because they are scriptural. Otherwise, you will need to explain why the 10 Commandments in Exodus differ in wording from the 10 Commandments found in Dueteronomy.

It is interesting that the most forceful argument in the NT for keeping saturday holy is: Mark 4:16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.

And I’m sure you know what “custom” means, but just for the post here’s the definition:

Custom = cus·tom (kstm) n.

1. A practice followed by people of a particular group or region.
2. A habitual practice of a person: my custom of reading a little before sleep. See Synonyms at habit.
3. Law A common tradition or usage so long established that it has the force or validity of law.

Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day as was His custom, practice, habit, tradition, based on the Old Covenant which He fulfilled perfectly. His resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church was the initiation of the New Covenant!

Again, go read MarysRoses’ posts…she brilliantly describes the “It is written’s” and “Thus saith the Lord’s” on this matter from the scriptures in the only way that makes sense.

Jesus life and death and most importantly His resurrection take prominance over any one day of the week. This is what Jesus was trying to teach the religious leaders regarding the sabbath in the Gospels, and what Paul writes about in Hebrews chapter 4…the new day given to God’s people is “TODAY”…today is the day of salvation…each and every day. MarysRoses brilliantly explains the moral law, the fourth commandment, as it pertains to Christians in the New Covenant relationship with God.

If you would like, I would be more than happy to provide a list of the scriptures from the NT that mention the word “sabbath” and “first day”…all 58 of them!

God bless all!!!

Well; I will give you an A for effort here. ): Really though, you have provided me with very typical apologetics answers, which I already knew and have made note of long ago. But it may be good to have them posted here as a handy reference.

I have thoroughly reviewed Marys Roses posts a number of times, and they too are really just apologetics, very typical, nothing new. Some of these; I just don’t feel an overwhelming need to reply to, as they seem very minor in nature; and not in correct context. But also, my time really is seriously limited, so I have to resort to replying to a lot less than I would sometimes like to - so know that I am not deliberately ignoring any questions. I am just priorizing.

The one thing that you didn’t reply to from my last post, which I had hoped for the most was my questions/comments about “the new commandment” of love. Would you mind, please, reviewing that section/s of my last post or two and comment therein? LOL; I think that the outcome of that line of study will allow me to keep my next paycheck!!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Actually, this is not quite how it is, although there is agreement on the fact that the foundation of God’s kingdom is based upon “eternal love.” As a Seventh-day Adventist; I was not taught to separate the two in quite the way you have above; for the Bible tells us that God’s law is based upon love; and that His law is ALWAYS needed. So one real difference between us would simply be in the understanding of God’s law itself. Laws cannot be “dispensed with” just because there is “love” in the air. What kind of society would we have if this was so? I believe that huge problems are caused when we teach young people that God has for whatever reasons, ‘cancelled’ His law, and has just ordered everyone to ‘love one another.’ How can we even know what that means without God’s law? How can young people be expected to behave when all the adults tell them that the law is not important to God anymore? This whole thing about God or us not needing ‘the law’ if there is love present is just so far out in left field that it is impossible to believe.

Sorry I haven’t been responding lately, working graveyard shifts and not having consistant access to the internet limits when I can respond, that and I have several other threads that I respond too as well, one of which has had me doing some extensive research on that thread’s subject.

Now as to Protestant101’s response, I would like to add that our belief also takes into account that how we show love to our Lord and God is through obedience. What are we obedient to? His word, his commandments and what has been taught in scripture.

Roman Catholics have the addition to the scripture of that of Tradition. I, for one, cannot fault tradition, I believe every faith has an element of tradition in it. However, I do not believe that tradition should trump scripture. Why? I ask, "Would the Apostles written anything contridictory of what they spoke or vis-versa? I don’t belief so. Is it with in man to distort the spoken word to their purpose and benefits? Absolutely. There in, if it has been suspected that the spoke word has been distorted and the written word is a more sure testimony would one be more secure in what was written than what was said to have been spoken. I vote for the written word until such time as the spoken word can be proven to be without error, supported by the written word.

In Christ, Love

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

(cont. from previous post)

(If you actually read the commandment, worship and assembly are not in there)

(cont. Next post…)

MarysRoses, Please read my disertation concerning the Sabbath in the Thread concerning that subject, I think you will find it interesting.

In Christ

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Part 2

What a wonderful and glorious society that is!!! Then love is not only in the air…it is in all who are one with Jesus…it is in all the parts of the one and same Body!! That is our eternal life…our calling in this life. Nothing can defeat that but our own unwillingness to become a part of, a member of Jesus’ Body.

God bless all!!!

Great statement, and so true. For God knows who are his and who are not. Does being an Adventist mean I am saved no. Does being a Catholic mean the same. No. but being Christ’s does. Gotta go times up.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

I see this word “new” as used in the text about the “new commandment of love” being totally abused and misinterpreted to the point where we, the churches, are preaching to society that "the law of God, our Creator has been “done away with” and “no longer applies to Christians,” - and therefore to anyone else. Society has not gotten a pretty message from the major churches within Christianity; and I see this as being directly related to this amazing fact that the “Christians” of the world, in essence, deny the authority of one or more of God’s commandments with the excuse text about “the new commandment of love.” That is such a wonderful text; but it has been so abused by so many!

I seem to keep riding on your coattails P101. But we need to also remember that this “New” commandment is not really new, but that it was also included in the convenant that was given to Moses. Jesus was just bringing it to the forefront and giving it its proper importance in the sceme (sp) of things.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

(cont. from previous post)

But look at the introduction to this chapter, Deuteronomy 5:1-3 :
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3** It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
**

The Bible, specifically says this covenant was NOT WITH OUR FATHERS… This same chapter goes on to list the same essential commandments as Exodus 4… in fact this is another account of the same event, the covenant with Israel.

You are right that the “covenant” was not given to their fathers, however, if you read concerning Abraham, God chose him because he kept His “commandments” the Laws are different from the covenant and once you begin to realize this you will see the significance to being obedient to them out of Love.

 

[St_Violet]

Sorry I haven’t been responding lately, working graveyard shifts and not having consistant access to the internet limits when I can respond, that and I have several other threads that I respond too as well, one of which has had me doing some extensive research on that thread’s subject.

Now as to Protestant101’s response, I would like to add that our belief also takes into account that how we show love to our Lord and God is through obedience. What are we obedient to? His word, his commandments and what has been taught in scripture.

Roman Catholics have the addition to the scripture of that of Tradition. I, for one, cannot fault tradition, I believe every faith has an element of tradition in it. However, I do not believe that tradition should trump scripture. Why? I ask, "Would the Apostles written anything contridictory of what they spoke or vis-versa? I don’t belief so. Is it with in man to distort the spoken word to their purpose and benefits? Absolutely. There in, if it has been suspected that the spoke word has been distorted and the written word is a more sure testimony would one be more secure in what was written than what was said to have been spoken. I vote for the written word until such time as the spoken word can be proven to be without error, supported by the written word.

In Christ, Love

our tradition and scripture goes hand in hand.

 

[MarysRoses]

You are right that the “covenant” was not given to their fathers, however, if you read concerning Abraham, God chose him because he kept His “commandments” the Laws are different from the covenant and once you begin to realize this you will see the significance to being obedient to them out of Love.

You will find no support for this in the bible. Your contention is that you know exactly what commands Abraham kept. Where are they listed?

Please show where the “commands” Abraham kept are exactly what is listed in Exodus. You will not find it. This is the heart of this disagreement. Adventists believe that the list in Exodus, is an exact, binding law to be kept. They interpret this list to include a command to worship on Saturday, the “seventh” day, and conclude that it is sin to keep a different day of the week holy. Nevermind that the Hebrew word is an ordinal number… not a specific name of a specific day of the week.

This chapter in Deuteronomy is VERY explicit… THIS is the covenant… then goes on to list the commandments. You cannot reasonably say that the introduction is talking about something OTHER than what it goes on to list! That does not make sense. To say “go read about abraham” as if the introduction is talking about that… rather than what immediately follows… that is prooftexting… not reading the chapter in context. You can “prove” anything under the sun with such splicing.

Breaking the Old covenant into bits and pieces so you can pick and choose what commandments you want to keep… is a very recent approach to scripture.

The Jewish people do not break the covenant into categories. It was made with them… it had over 600 commandments, and they keep them all.

Paul said to keep part of the law… is to be responsible for it all.

Do you wear clothing of blended fibers? Then you have broken the law. Do you keep the passover? The feast of Booths?
Then you have broken the law as surely as if you had never kept a single sabbath.

The Old Covenant is gone, Jesus said it would not pass away… until it was FULFILLED. You have to look at the second part of that sentence. Jesus fullfilled ALL of the law (old covenant).
Adventists will say that fulfill does not mean that it is done away with… yet that is an assumption that the Church did not make for 1800 plus years.

The Ten Commandments are not binding because they are a covenant… old or new. They are binding as they are an expression of moral, natural law. These can be determined from observation of Creation as they are part of creation… as God created natural laws to govern the physical world… gravity… light, etc. They can be discerned by deduction… as can the physical laws governing the universe. There are similar, natural laws that govern human society and behavior… because we are God’s creation. They can also be discerned by observation and deduction. No society that promotes dishonesty, murder, and adultery lasts. No society that flaunts the basic human needs for compassion, respect and stability is one with happy, contented people. By observation… we can see how God intends for us to live. This is natural law. The various versions of commands given in the bible are expressions of this natural law.
Natural law will always be binding… just as gravity follows predictable laws. Sometimes it may not seem so… gravity can bend near a black hole! But when scientists look deeper, no laws have been broken… only a deeper law is revealed. The same with moral laws… Sometimes we have to look deeper to find the Creator’s signature, but it is there.

It is absolutely unscriptural to say that the “commands” Abraham kept are the ten commandments as given in exodus. It is also absolutely unscriptural to say that the “commandments” Christians are to keep are exactly the ten commandments in Exodus. There is nothing but assumptions. Christians are to Love God… and Love one another. Perfect summary of natural, moral law. Ridiculous to say it applies to the ritual and ceremonial aspects of the old covenant. Those are gone, along with the covenant.

The commandment list in Deuteronomy has significant differences from Exodus. Either they are two different expressions of a deeper reality… or scripture contradicts itself.

Either the chapter goes on to list the important commands of the covenant… or the writer was hopelessly confused about what he was supposed to be writing about. Traditionally, that author is Moses. Was Moses confused when he wrote the laws down?

Even christian groups without well thought out descriptions of natural law instinctively understand this concept. The Old Covenant is gone, but there are moral responsibilities for Christians. You cannot love your neighbor if you are cheating him out of his property. You cannot love God if you are worshiping false gods.

Saturday/Sunday is not a matter of morality. There is no Saturday/Sunday in nature.

There is no way to determine biblically, when you can find “saturday” every where that people live.

The New Testament does not contain any instruction for Christians to keep a certain day holy. NONE! Not Sunday, not SATURDAY! NONE! Instead, we are instructed to not judge each other over the matter of a day… that is the explicit instruction given by Paul.

Catholics keep Sunday as a matter of church discipline. If non-Catholics choose to worship on Saturday… that is their choice. I think they miss out on the beautiful symbolism of the traditional day of Christian worship… but then they miss out on a lot of treasures found in our Christian tradition over the centuries.

(Cont next post)

 

[MarysRoses]

(Cont. from previous post)

Reduced to the bare essentials…

Adventists teach that Saturday must be kept holy, or a person sins. Adventists teach that Saturday must be the day of rest and worship as a test of loyalty to God, or one can lose their salvation.

Yet… they consistently dodge questions about how to reliably tell, biblically, when this special day can be found… in all places… in all times. To rise to this level of importance, a matter of salvation or a test of loyalty… wouldn’t it be reasonable that God would make his test something that could be found in nature? Not an arbitrary bit of time that depends on the local calendar and custom?

They consider the day of the week to be of such importance it is part of their name, and how they identify themselves to the world, the Seventh-day Adventists. They consider themselves to have a mission of properly teaching the world that all ten commandments are still in force and must be kept…t his is their “sabbath truth” to teach to the world.

All ten… maybe even the one they don’t like to talk about? What about that one? You can go into an Adventist Book Center… and find hundreds of books about the sabbath, literally. You can find a similar number of books on healthful living. You can usually even find a food section selling heath food items that members might have a hard time finding in their local grocery stores. None of this is a bad thing… this is what actually living as an Adventist usually revolves around… the sabbath truth and the health message. The health message is thought to be found in the commandment… Thou shalt not kill. Anything making the body unhealthy and hastening death… falls under this commandment (as well as our bodies being temples of the holy spirit) and so being unhealthy can rise to the level of sin. Again… nothing really wrong with making healthful choices to honor the creator of our bodies, although I would disagree with their degree of emphasis.

But what does it say about Adventists… that so much of their attention and resources go into commandment keeping and all about keeping Saturday over Sunday… and making healthful living choices… but they are a pro choice organization in regards to abortion.

They are officially pro choice, as can be found in a statement on their official website.

Doesn’t “Thou shalt not kill” apply to babies?

This scandal is deeper than taking a position of letting women make their own choices about abortion… Adventist hospitals perform abortions. The denomination makes significant amounts of money providing abortion services.

When I was an Adventist student, attending an Adventist University… I discovered this. I was shocked to discover, that while a student could be expelled for bringing a pepperoni pizza or other “unclean” food into the dorm and one would face serious discipline for skipping dorm worship or sabbath services( yes, attendance was taken) … a university counselor was helping two girls arrange for abortions.

This triggered a lot of soul searching into questions that had already begun to nag at me. It was about this time that the official statement on abortion was formulated by the denomination. I had hoped for consistency… if Saturday is of such importance, why can’t we be against killing the innocent?

It was thought that getting involved in pro life issues would be a distraction from the Adventist “message”.

I was done with Adventism. Any organization that feels a day of the week is more important than the lives of innocent children, is not God’s Church. Period.

Natural law… no society that condones murder will thrive.

MarysRoses

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

It was thought that getting involved in pro life issues would be a distraction from the Adventist “message”.

I was done with Adventism. Any organization that feels a day of the week is more important than the lives of innocent children, is not God’s Church. Period.

I came to the same conclusion for the same reason.

 

[Protestant101]

(Cont. from previous post)

Reduced to the bare essentials…

It was thought that getting involved in pro life issues would be a distraction from the Adventist “message”.

I was done with Adventism. Any organization that feels a day of the week is more important than the lives of innocent children, is not God’s Church. Period.

Natural law… no society that condones murder will thrive.

MarysRoses

I know that there is ongoing discussion about the Pro-life Issue within our Church, and that it will be revisited again by our leaders. I suppose we could foray into all kinds of issues, maybe we could look at the Catholic track record with “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not commit adultery” (especially with children) but all of this does not address the question at hand. None of it would prove or disprove the seventh-day Sabbath.

Personally; I cannot bring myself to judge a church, (including your’s) on how well they keep any one of the ten commandments. I do of course care about what they officially teach and why, and according to John 7:24, I do “judge righteous judgment” on a teaching or a doctrine; but one of the reasons that I came off the street, and drugs, and all kinds of sordid things I was doing was precisely because of how Adventists (the ones I knew) brought out how the beauty of Christ and His salvation was an integral part of the Sabbath message. It is not just an Adventist message; for the Sabbath was made “for man” meaning all of mankind.

I did not come into the Adventist Church because everyone behaved perfectly, or kept the commandments perfectly, I only came in and stayed, (for 20 years now) because of the wonderful love of Christ that some of the Adventists have showered me with over the years.

Now; I understand Marys Roses, that not all have this experience in our Church; but neither do they in your’s. But I sincerely believe that God understands your move to Catholicism; better than any human ever will, and that He will continue to walk you through the valleys and over the mountains of your Christian experience. He has such amazing ways to guide and comfort us in the shadowy world. I will keep you in my prayers - but I won’t pray that you become an Adventist; I will pray that you continue to seek and to love the Savior, and to make Him known to others.

 

[MarysRoses]

I know that there is ongoing discussion about the Pro-life Issue within our Church, and that it will be revisited again by our leaders. I suppose we could foray into all kinds of issues, maybe we could look at the Catholic track record with “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not commit adultery” (especially with children) but all of this does not address the question at hand. None of it would prove or disprove the seventh-day Sabbath.

.

The point is not that people sin. People do sin. People do things that are against Christian teaching.

The point is that Adventists have an official statement on the abortion issue, which is pro choice. Adventists have chosen not to become involved in pro life issues as an organization.

That represents a choice of priorities there… which I found repugnant.

Going to church on the “right day” is more important than defending the innocent.

Thats not Christianity. That is legalism.

MarysRoses

 

[Protestant101]

The point is not that people sin. People do sin. People do things that are against Christian teaching.

The point is that Adventists have an official statement on the abortion issue, which is pro choice. Adventists have chosen not to become involved in pro life issues as an organization.

That represents a choice of priorities there… which I found repugnant.

Going to church on the “right day” is more important than defending the innocent.

Thats not Christianity. That is legalism.

MarysRoses

That is only a minor point from my intentions here. Yes, of course people sin. We both agree on that. Are you saying that Adventists are “Pro-choice” or “Pro-abortion?” I find myself wondering which “official statement” you are getting your thoughts from here.

The Adventist Church has a publicly established track record showing that they have the highest priority in much of their ministry to “defend the innocent;” including the whole birth control issue.

It is my belief that on this issue, you have unfortunately fallen prey to some of the anti-Adventist cults out there who wish to stretch every statement we make into something it is not. I have read one official statement by Adventists, and it does not appear to say what you say it does. It’s much like you & Patrick and a few others keep saying to me how that I do not correctly represent your teachings. I don’t believe that you correctly represent this issue here.

People in your church go out and get abortions all the time. What do you do with such ones? What do your church teachings say about this?

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

On this pro-life, pro-choice issue. I am an admitted SDA. A very recent convert to say the least. However, ALL of my life I have never supported abortion, but, that being said, I do support God’s soveriegnty it giving man the ability to choose.

So what does that entale? Mankind has been faced with many choices, starting all the way back to the beginning. The first choice that was made was the wrong choice. What happened, we lost access to paradise. It has been that way ever since. Men make good choices and they make bad choices. But that is the result of the free-will God has give us. So, what is the results of our choices? The consequences that eventually come to bite us in the backside, whether good or bad. And believe it, we all eventually have to pay for those choices.

It is therefore OUR responsibility to make, intellegent, informed choices in everything we do throughout our lives. If we believe that certain choices are detrimental to individuals or innocent unprotected individuals then we need to speak up. If the laws of the land state that certain rights are given to the populace, until such laws are repealed, they are to be abided by. But as Christians we can and should speak out against them, but we cannot and should not empose our moral theology on anyone, it must be presented in a loving and forgiving manner else we turn the lost away and they become bitter toward God, because we represent him here on this planet.

Guest I need to get down off this soap box.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Are you saying that Adventists are “Pro-choice” or “Pro-abortion?” I find myself wondering which “official statement” you are getting your thoughts from here.

Prot 101 the link below is to the Official Statement of the GC on Abortion.

THREE REASONS TO LEAVE THE SDA DENOMINATION

adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html

I would encourage all Seventh Day Adventists and any Catholics interested in Adventism to read the above SDA guideline on abortion. this document was “approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.” Therefore, this guideline is an official teaching of the SDA denomination. I will be quoting brief excerpts, but so that you can weigh my thoughts within the context of the document, you would do well to read it yourself.

This document provides three excellent reasons to leave the Seventh Day Adventist denomination and to convert to the Roman Catholic Church.

Reason #1: The GC guidelines permit the murder of the unborn. The Roman Catholic Church forbids the murder of the unborn.

It is murder because, in the opening paragraph it speaks of accepting responsibility for the protection of prenatal human life while preserving the personal liberty of women. The GC acknowledges here that the prenatal being constitutes human life. How can human life be balanced against personal liberty? How about accepting responsibility for protecting the human life of a husband while preserving the personal liberty of women to murder him? Or protecting the human life of a postnatal child whiling preserving the personal liberty of women to murder a son or daughter? Once the GC acknowledges human life, how can a guideline on abortion go any further? It is wrong to take a human life, what more is there to be said? Instead, the guideline goes on to say that “ Seventh-day Adventists want to relate to the question of abortion in ways that reveal faith in God as the Creator and Sustainer of all life and in ways that reflect Christian responsibility and freedom.” How can one, with a straight face profess faith in the Sustainer of all life, while permitting the murder of the most innocent lives on the planet?

The guideline defines prenatal human life as a magnificent gift of God but permits that gift to be annihilated. The guideline urges the SDA denomination to express its commitment to the value of human life in every way but condemning murder. Instead it says that “attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel.”

Reason #2: The GC guidelines admit that the SDA denomination has no authority over morals. The Roman Catholic Church has authority over morals.

The GC guidelines state, “The Church does not serve as conscience for individuals; however, it should provide moral guidance.” Where is the Authority of the Church in matter of morals to be seen in this guideline? And if the Seventh Day Adventist denomination has no authority how can it call itself a church? More, where is the clear moral guidance that the murder of the unborn is a sin no less grave than the murder of the born?
Reason #3: The GC guidelines admit that the SDA denomination has no authority over faith (doctrine). The Roman Catholic Church has authority over faith.

Perhaps the MOST amazing point the GC makes in this guideline is that the pregnant woman should make the decision whether or not to kill the baby with the aid of Bible study and the Holy Spirit. Clearly the Seventh Day Adventist denomination has no authority to declare doctrines nor any authority to require its members to abide by them.

I am not sure which is worse, that the SDA denomination is unwilling to declare abortion to be a sin, or that the denomination has no authority to instruct its members in matters of faith and morals and no authority to require obedience of their members. In any case please study these guidelines and consider the ramifications of their existence.