Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Protestant101]

Prot 101 the link below is to the Official Statement of the GC on Abortion.

I am not sure which is worse, that the SDA denomination is unwilling to declare abortion to be a sin, or that the denomination has no authority to instruct its members in matters of faith and morals and no authority to require obedience of their members. In any case please study these guidelines and consider the ramifications of their existence.

Once again; you and Mary’s Roses are piping the pipes of non-Catholic anti-Adventist sources when you “explain” to the public what the official statement on “abortion” really means.

First, the article you refer to is not one that just adresses abortion; it is an official statement on “birth control;” covering all of the various means that are used. It promotes the free choice of both the man and the woman to choose the appropriate method of birth control; and it does not talk about abortion the way you say it does:

**

5. Appropriate methods of birth control.

Moral decision making about the choice and use of the various birth control agents must stem from an understanding of their probable effects on physical and emotional health, the manner in which the various agents operate, and the financial expenditure involved. A variety of methods of birth control–including barrier methods, spermicides, and sterilization–prevent conception and are morally acceptable. Some other birth-control methods1 may prevent the release of the egg (ovulation), may prevent the union of egg and sperm (fertilization), or may prevent attachment of the already fertilized egg (implantation). Because of uncertainty about how they will function in any given instance, they may be morally suspect for people who believe that protectable human life begins at fertilization. However, since the majority of fertilized ova naturally fail to implant or are lost after implantation, even when birth control methods are not being used, hormonal methods of birth control and IUDs, which represent a similar process, may be viewed as morally acceptable. Abortion, the intentional termination of an established pregnancy, is not morally acceptable for purposes of birth control.

Once again, you, MarysRoses, Patrick, and SDA2RC can be seen grossly misrepresenting our beliefs, and you have the nerve to accuse us of this. Adventists do not promote murder as you say they do - you are misleading the public here as to what is truth. You might want to keep an eye on this article as there will be more info there soon on this subject.

When I look at who really promotes murder in our world; it becomes interesting to view history, and the doctrines behind it; and all the while those involved are dismissing it as being “done by the political authorities” of the time period in question.**

 

[Marsha_Adams]

First, the article you refer to is not one that just adresses abortion; it is an official statement on “birth control;” covering all of the various means that are used. It promotes the free choice of both the man and the woman to choose the appropriate method of birth control; and it does not talk about abortion the way you say it does:

The title of the article is Guidelines on Abortion.

If abortion were not acceptable to the GC there would be no need for Guidelines. The GC would simply say that abortion is wrong in any and all cases and a sin against both God and man. Instead the Guidelines say that there are times when abortion is acceptable and it is up to the individual to decide.

No, Prot 101, this article says EXACTLY what I said it says.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Once again; you and Mary’s Roses are piping the pipes of non-Catholic anti-Adventist sources when you “explain” to the public what the official statement on “abortion” really means.

First, the article you refer to is not one that just adresses abortion; it is an official statement on “birth control;” covering all of the various means that are used. It promotes the free choice of both the man and the woman to choose the appropriate method of birth control; and it does not talk about abortion the way you say it does:

**

Once again, you, MarysRoses, Patrick, and SDA2RC can be seen grossly misrepresenting our beliefs, and you have the nerve to accuse us of this. Adventists do not promote murder as you say they do - you are misleading the public here as to what is truth. You might want to keep an eye on this article ** as there will be more info there soon on this subject.

When I look at who really promotes murder in our world; it becomes interesting to view history, and the doctrines behind it; and all the while those involved are dismissing it as being “done by the political authorities” of the time period in question.

There is no misrepresentation here. The SDA church position on abortion is indefensible for Christians who believe in the sanctity of human life…especially human life that depends on others to protect it. The official statements that Marsha referred to are a sad indictment on a church who claims to uphold the law of God.

I know of what I speak regarding this issue.

Here is a link to another thread on the SDA church and abortion. For those who would like more information it is well worth the time required to read through the posts. I have a post in there regarding my interaction with SDA church leaders on this issue, and we are not making anything up nor misrepresenting SDA teachings on this. I am encouraged that not all SDAs embrace the official church postion on this…and for any SDAs who would like to take up the fight to protect the innocent unborn in SDA hospitals, I would be more than willing to work with you in how you can obtain hospital statistics on abortion in SDA hospitals so you can present documented evidence to your church leaders. A few have tried…none have prevailed. Perhap you may have more success.

Here is the other thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=155025

 

[Protestant101]

There is no misrepresentation here. The SDA church position on abortion is indefensible for Christians who believe in the sanctity of human life…especially human life that depends on others to protect it. The official statements that Marsha referred to are a sad indictment on a church who claims to uphold the law of God.

I know of what I speak regarding this issue.

Well; you are indeed misrepresenting the facts; and the facts are that that article Marsha refers to does not “promote” abortion, but neither does it have a condemning attitude to those who have made the sad choice to commit such an atrocity.

You misrepresent it, as evidenced by your not including other official church statements on this topic area, such as the one I referred to regarding “Birth Control.” They clearly denounce abortion in this article, and you are twisting this all out of context.

Your church excuses her horrible cruelty of the past as the result of the barbarism of the times and pleads that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments, but the principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church today; and had she but the power again, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. And you have the nerve to try and accuse another Church of “murder” because they have a “redemptive approach” to the abortion issue? It is possible to do this without officially supporting abortion; but of course, you have dug yourself in too deep with this now to ever admit that.

 

[Protestant101]

Here is the other thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=155025

I have visited this thread; and conveniently, some of the links are no longer working. But I hope that people will read it and see that in any of our official statements, Adventists do not teach that abortions are OK; but I wonder, can you answer my question, what does YOUR church teach on an official basis regarding those in your church who get abortions? Catholics get abortions all the time. What is the official teaching on that, and what to do with such members? What about the Doctors who do it? or the nurses? What does your Church teach about these?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

And you have the nerve to try and accuse another Church of “murder” because they have a “redemptive approach” to the abortion issue? It is possible to do this without officially supporting abortion; but of course, you have dug yourself in too deep with this now to ever admit that.

I am not accusing another church of murder because they have a redemptive approach to the abortion issue. Abortion is a tragedy not only because of the loss of life to the unborn child, but additionally to the psychological trauma to the mother, and sometimes the father, when they realize just what it was they did…and this can occur years after the fact. It is a tragic situation, and The Catholic Church reaches out to heal and assist not only those parents who choose to give birth, but also to those who have suffered from abortions.

So no I am not accusing another church of murder if they adopt a redemptive approach to those who suffer from abortion. I am accusing hospital administraters and church leaders of murder when they put policies in place that make abortion available and easy to obtain for just about any reason. That is wrong, I don’t care what church promotes that either willingly or deceptively…it is wrong.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I wonder, can you answer my question, what does YOUR church teach on an official basis regarding those in your church who get abortions? Catholics get abortions all the time. What is the official teaching on that, and what to do with such members? What about the Doctors who do it? or the nurses? What does your Church teach about these?

I cannot answer what The Church teaches on an official basis regarding those who have had abortions. I have never researched this at all. So perhaps someone who knows the policy/teaching can speak to that. I can’t.

And where do you get your information that “Catholics get abortions all the time”? WOW…what an assertion…

I stand by what I said in my previous post…if doctors are performing abortions in Catholic hospitals…it is wrong. Although I feel somewhat safe in saying that I’m not aware of any Catholic hospitals that have policies that allow easy access to abortions. I believe their policies are against that! I know the Church’s official teaching is against abortion…OFFICIALLY!!!

 

[Protestant101]

I cannot answer what The Church teaches on an official basis regarding those who have had abortions. I have never researched this at all. So perhaps someone who knows the policy/teaching can speak to that. I can’t.

And where do you get your information that “Catholics get abortions all the time”? WOW…what an assertion…

I stand by what I said in my previous post…if doctors are performing abortions in Catholic hospitals…it is wrong. Although I feel somewhat safe in saying that I’m not aware of any Catholic hospitals that have policies that allow easy access to abortions. I believe their policies are against that! I know the Church’s official teaching is against abortion…OFFICIALLY!!!

I didn’t say where Catholics go to get abortions; but I will look forward to hearing what your church teaches regarding the ones that do get them.

 

[Protestant101]

I am not accusing another church of murder because they have a redemptive approach to the abortion issue.

Marys Roses certainly is; and you are voicing agreement with her and when you try saying that you accuse the leaders and hospital admins of murder over this issue; you don’t even know what you are talking about and how can anyone see your words as anything but accusing a church (publicly) of murder over this issue. I clearly showed you where our official teachings denounce abortions as morally unacceptable - yet you still insist on trying to stretch other statements we make into something they are not. The Adventist Church is a world champion of human rights - even with those they do not agree with. To accuse them of murder, publicly like this is simply lying.

(and who is the “father of lies?”)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I didn’t say where Catholics go to get abortions; but I will look forward to hearing what your church teaches regarding the ones that do get them.

Hi 101,

There are many sins that are committed by people. Abortion is a sin. It is not the only sin, but it is a sin. And unfortunately it is an act that is irreversable for all involved…for the baby whose life is ended, for the mother and father who must live with the consequences of that choice, for the doctors who performed it, for the nurses who assist, for the hospital administrators who allowed it, for the church leaders who close their eyes and use the logic of the world to justify it, for the members of churches who either support it or will not stand up to their leaders to put an end to it in their institutions, for society that loses millions of people who could have positively contributed to their communities…

I have known people who have made the choice to end the life of their child through abortion. Many of them young, scared, confused, and feeling that they had no other option. I have seen them cry and suffer greatly because of the choice they made. It is heartbreaking to say the least.

I know that my Church considers it a sin and stands in opposition to it. I also know that my Church follows the mission it was given by Jesus Christ when He established the Church…and that mission is to preach the good news of forgiveness, life, and hope for sinners that comes only from knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And we , as sinners, have the assurance of forgiveness and reconciliation with God because of His life, death, and resurrection.

My Church teaches that there is forgiveness for sins, all sins, and that there is repentence, reconciliation, new life and hope in Christ Jesus. My Church teaches that there is hope for sinners because of Jesus Christ. Hope and assureance that my sins are forgiven and that I may enter into eternal life. And as a sinner, I find that extremely comforting and reassuring!!!

I don’t know what the “official” teachings of the Church are regarding people who get abortions, if there is any such thing, so what I said above is my answer based on what I know. If I have misrepresented what The Church teaches regarding abortion, or any other sin, and the Church’s response to it, then I ask other Catholics to post what is correct, and then I will know for sure.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Marys Roses certainly is; and you are voicing agreement with her and when you try saying that you accuse the leaders and hospital admins of murder over this issue; you don’t even know what you are talking about and how can anyone see your words as anything but accusing a church (publicly) of murder over this issue. I clearly showed you where our official teachings denounce abortions as morally unacceptable - yet you still insist on trying to stretch other statements we make into something they are not. The Adventist Church is a world champion of human rights - even with those they do not agree with. To accuse them of murder, publicly like this is simply lying.

(and who is the “father of lies?”)

Hi 101,

I accuse no one of murder who takes a redemptive approach to those involved with abortion. I certainly do not accuse an entire church of murder, since many in the SDA church do not know what is going on in their hospitals.

I do accuse those of murder who promote and perform abortions, whether hospital administrators, church leaders, or those who turn a blind eye to this.

Your official church teachings may denounce abortion as morally unacceptable, but then they leave plenty of “grey” area for hospitals to perform abortions for just about any reason. The SDA church position cannot be considered pro-life.

If you doubt that assertion, then gather together all the SDA church position papers/statements/teachings, and take them to any pro-life organization in your area and ask their staff if they would consider the SDA church position to be pro-life.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi 101,

There are many sins that are committed by people. Abortion is a sin. It is not the only sin, but it is a sin. And unfortunately it is an act that is irreversable for all involved…for the baby whose life is ended, for the mother and father who must live with the consequences of that choice, for the doctors who performed it, for the nurses who assist, for the hospital administrators who allowed it, for the church leaders who close their eyes and use the logic of the world to justify it, for the members of churches who either support it or will not stand up to their leaders to put an end to it in their institutions, for society that loses millions of people who could have positively contributed to their communities…

I have known people who have made the choice to end the life of their child through abortion. Many of them young, scared, confused, and feeling that they had no other option. I have seen them cry and suffer greatly because of the choice they made. It is heartbreaking to say the least.

I know that my Church considers it a sin and stands in opposition to it. I also know that my Church follows the mission it was given by Jesus Christ when He established the Church…and that mission is to preach the good news of forgiveness, life, and hope for sinners that comes only from knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And we , as sinners, have the assurance of forgiveness and reconciliation with God because of His life, death, and resurrection.

My Church teaches that there is forgiveness for sins, all sins, and that there is repentence, reconciliation, new life and hope in Christ Jesus. My Church teaches that there is hope for sinners because of Jesus Christ. Hope and assureance that my sins are forgiven and that I may enter into eternal life. And as a sinner, I find that extremely comforting and reassuring!!!

I don’t know what the “official” teachings of the Church are regarding people who get abortions, if there is any such thing, so what I said above is my answer based on what I know. If I have misrepresented what The Church teaches regarding abortion, or any other sin, and the Church’s response to it, then I ask other Catholics to post what is correct, and then I will know for sure.

God bless all!!!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I didn’t say where Catholics go to get abortions; but I will look forward to hearing what your church teaches regarding the ones that do get them.

They probably go to SDA hospitals. Remember just because a person calls him/herself Catholic doesn’t mean he/she is actually Catholic. Heck, Pelosi calls herself Catholic and if you believe she is I have some rural land in Florida you may be interested in.

The Church teaches that anyone who: has an abortion, performs an abortion, or forces someone to have an abortion is automatically excommunicated.

The SDA church does not teach that abortion is ALWAYS murder in any and all cases with no exceptions. Therefore, the SDA church is pro-abortion.

Marsha

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I know that there is ongoing discussion about the Pro-life Issue within our Church, and that it will be revisited again by our leaders. I suppose we could foray into all kinds of issues, maybe we could look at the Catholic track record with “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not commit adultery” (especially with children) but all of this does not address the question at hand. None of it would prove or disprove the seventh-day Sabbath.

Personally; I cannot bring myself to judge a church, (including your’s) on how well they keep any one of the ten commandments. I do of course care about what they officially teach and why, and according to John 7:24, I do “judge righteous judgment” on a teaching or a doctrine; but one of the reasons that I came off the street, and drugs, and all kinds of sordid things I was doing was precisely because of how Adventists (the ones I knew) brought out how the beauty of Christ and His salvation was an integral part of the Sabbath message. It is not just an Adventist message; for the Sabbath was made “for man” meaning all of mankind.

I did not come into the Adventist Church because everyone behaved perfectly, or kept the commandments perfectly, I only came in and stayed, (for 20 years now) because of the wonderful love of Christ that some of the Adventists have showered me with over the years.

Now; I understand Marys Roses, that not all have this experience in our Church; but neither do they in your’s. But I sincerely believe that God understands your move to Catholicism; better than any human ever will, and that He will continue to walk you through the valleys and over the mountains of your Christian experience. He has such amazing ways to guide and comfort us in the shadowy world. I will keep you in my prayers - but I won’t pray that you become an Adventist; I will pray that you continue to seek and to love the Savior, and to make Him known to others.

Hi Protestant101,

I would be remiss if I did not respond to this post of yours. This post of yours had a more profound impact on me than anything you’ve written.

When I first read this Sunday evening, I had one, and only one response to it, which I feel compelled to share with you. And that is…

I love you and God bless you!!!

Please keep me in your prayers as you are in mine!!

Patrick

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

They probably go to SDA hospitals. Remember just because a person calls him/herself Catholic doesn’t mean he/she is actually Catholic. Heck, Pelosi calls herself Catholic and if you believe she is I have some rural land in Florida you may be interested in.

The Church teaches that anyone who: has an abortion, performs an abortion, or forces someone to have an abortion is automatically excommunicated.

The SDA church does not teach that abortion is ALWAYS murder in any and all cases with no exceptions. Therefore, the SDA church is pro-abortion.

Marsha

Thank you for that clairification Marsha. While it is correct that a practicing Catholic who has an abortion is automatically excommunicated, is it also correct that a convert who has had an abortion prior to joining the Church can still join the Church? It is my understanding that is correct.

I hope all is well with you!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Thank you for that clairification Marsha. While it is correct that a practicing Catholic who has an abortion is automatically excommunicated, is it also correct that a convert who has had an abortion prior to joining the Church can still join the Church? It is my understanding that is correct.

I hope all is well with you!!

God bless all!!!

Patrick:

Yes, a person who has had an abortion, or performed abortions, or forced someone to have an abortion, may convert to Catholicism. Someone who has done those things who is currently Catholic and was automatically excommunicated may confess and return to the Church.

But they should not be fooled, God is not mocked. They cannot say to themselves, well I will do this now and then I will go to confession and make it okay. The Church on earth may not know, but God knows.

Jesus said, “In as much as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have don it unto me.” To my mind that says that every time a person has an abortion and murders what is the epitome of the “LEAST” of Christ’s brethren is aborting Jesus. Now to my mind there is no situation where it is okay to abort Jesus, not in cases of incest or rape and not to save the life of the mother.

Marsha

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Patrick:

Yes, a person who has had an abortion, or performed abortions, or forced someone to have an abortion, may convert to Catholicism. Someone who has done those things who is currently Catholic and was automatically excommunicated may confess and return to the Church.

But they should not be fooled, God is not mocked. They cannot say to themselves, well I will do this now and then I will go to confession and make it okay. The Church on earth may not know, but God knows.

Jesus said, “In as much as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have don it unto me.” To my mind that says that every time a person has an abortion and murders what is the epitome of the “LEAST” of Christ’s brethren is aborting Jesus. Now to my mind there is no situation where it is okay to abort Jesus, not in cases of incest or rape and not to save the life of the mother.

Marsha

Thanks you once again for the clarification Marsha! I agree!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi Protestant101,

I would be remiss if I did not respond to this post of yours. This post of yours had a more profound impact on me than anything you’ve written.

When I first read this Sunday evening, I had one, and only one response to it, which I feel compelled to share with you. And that is…

I love you and God bless you!!!

Please keep me in your prayers as you are in mine!!

Patrick

See, I am not as crusty as you guys thought I was, eh? And I do mean every word of it, inspite of anything I have said, including my sometimes harsh words. I know that some of you don’t see it this way; but I truly believe that it is proper to harshly address ideas/doctrines, which one feels are wrong - and potentially dangerous to spiritual or physical well-being. But it is important to try to avoid doing that to people.

I do not pray for you to become Adventists; I pray for you to be truly close to God, and to truly exalt His Son in all that you do, even while you discuss doctrines with tenacious Adventists like me!! Let us consider very carefully what and how we pray for one another - for it could be our very eternal life that depends upon the state of our heart during this kind of prayer. We don’t need to pray what Jesus prayed, but “as” He prayed.

 

[Protestant101]

They probably go to SDA hospitals. Remember just because a person calls him/herself Catholic doesn’t mean he/she is actually Catholic. Heck, Pelosi calls herself Catholic and if you believe she is I have some rural land in Florida you may be interested in.

The Church teaches that anyone who: has an abortion, performs an abortion, or forces someone to have an abortion is automatically excommunicated.

The SDA church does not teach that abortion is ALWAYS murder in any and all cases with no exceptions. Therefore, the SDA church is pro-abortion.

Marsha

YES!! I am very interested in that “rural land in Florida!” Florida is a great place to visit!!

Lets Review what Adventists OFFICIALLY teach about abortions, for those who perform them, and those who receive them:

5. Appropriate methods of birth control. Moral decision making about the choice and use of the various birth control agents must stem from an understanding of their probable effects on physical and emotional health, the manner in which the various agents operate, and the financial expenditure involved. A variety of methods of birth control–including barrier methods, spermicides, and sterilization–prevent conception and are morally acceptable. Some other birth-control methods1 may prevent the release of the egg (ovulation), may prevent the union of egg and sperm (fertilization), or may prevent attachment of the already fertilized egg (implantation). Because of uncertainty about how they will function in any given instance, they may be morally suspect for people who believe that protectable human life begins at fertilization. However, since the majority of fertilized ova naturally fail to implant or are lost after implantation, even when birth control methods are not being used, hormonal methods of birth control and IUDs, which represent a similar process, may be viewed as morally acceptable. Abortion, the intentional termination of an established pregnancy, is not morally acceptable for purposes of birth control.

**

Obviously, those on the medical side, or on the receiving side of abortion are doing something morally unacceptable. It’s like you said about how not everyone who says they are Catholic, are Catholic; why wouldn’t the same be true for Adventists, including leaders? But the official teaching is clear - and the “redemptive approach” is of course not reserved just for the recipients of abortions; but also for the medical people and others who promote them, or actually do them.

No matter how you stretch this issue; it is impossible to make the Adventist Church out to be Pro-Abortion. I see the Catholic approach of “excommunication” as a quite harsh, non-redemptive approach, and possibly more harmful than other potential solutions. Maybe, because of this difference in how our respective churches deal with it, some are tempted to call it “Pro Abortion;” yet, the issue of “excommunication” for such things may also have far-reaching consequences, none of which are good. This is an issue that it will always be impossible to deal with in a way that keeps everybody happy; but then, is that what Jesus wants us to do? Doesn’t He want us to visibly show the world His love, and His redemption?**

 

[Mannyfit75]

I see the Catholic approach of “excommunication” as a quite harsh, non-redemptive approach, and possibly more harmful than other potential solutions

Excommunication is a displinary measure. A Catholic who takes part in abortion cannot received any of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

However, if the excommunicated Catholic regrets her / his action by committing abortion and seeks God’s mercy. She can be received back into the Catholic Church by going to priest through confession.

I have watch women or hear women who are Catholic and had committed abortion and regretted doing it and are now speaking out against the sins of abortion.

You claim excommunication is harmful, well you are wrong. It has its benefits.