Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

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Cat said:
So if this “traditional” approach is so stellar and worked so well, then why did these people leave? :confused: It apparently didn’t work for them.

Perhaps if you (and these others) had been exposed to beautiful hymns like Amazing Grace, written in the vernacular (English) and written with simple, non-flowery language that even the most “wretched” person can easily understand, and using simple “folk” melodies, you might not have left the Church.
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Thank you! Very articulate defense of modern music, which I happen to love.

By the way, I know “Amazing Grace” was written by an Englishman, but honestly, if you’re not singing it Southern Gospel-style in a full, loud voice … you’re not doin’ it right. That may be why some of you don’t like the song - you’ve never sung it right.

When my oldest was a baby, I used to sing her “Amazing Grace” on car trips to keep her quiet. She seemed to really like the song. Maybe because she’s mixed race and recognized her heritage in the Southern Gospel-style I used to sing it. 😃
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
Amazing Grace, from a musical standpoint, is also pretty awful. Hate the tune! And yes, I know it’s not a theological reason, but when you meld the lyrics together with sub-par music, you get one music director who’s not using it. 😛
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I have no probelm with objecting to the melody. I personally like it, I would get sick of it if I heard it all the time, but I believe such melodies have their place. My problem is when people claim that the song can’t be sung because its protestant and heretical, because its simply not true. If it is interpreted a certain way, then it can be understood in a heretical light, but in and of itself it is not. And to be honest, Its not as easily taken heretically as some people seem to think. 🤷
 
Personally I like Amazing Grace on the bagpipes for sentimental reasons, but sung, it doesn’t do much for me.

When it comes to hymns about sanctifying grace, I prefer Allegri’s Miserere (Miserere mei, Deus, Psalm 50).
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
Amazing Grace, from a musical standpoint, is also pretty awful. Hate the tune! And yes, I know it’s not a theological reason, but when you meld the lyrics together with sub-par music, you get one music director who’s not using it. 😛
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I’ll agree with you there. Even Gather Us In has a catchier tune.

I’m always curious though whether the composer writes the lyrics for what he was humming or writes the melody as an afterthought to what he was writing. Multiple verses however, usually indicate that the melody is written first. I’m not to sure about refrains, though.
 
ProVobis said:
I’ll agree with you there. Even Gather Us In has a catchier tune.

I’m always curious though whether the composer writes the lyrics for what he was humming or writes the melody as an afterthought to what he was writing. Multiple verses however, usually indicate that the melody is written first. I’m not to sure about refrains, though.
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Actually John Newton is credited with the words we today associate with Amazing Grace, not the New Britain melody. The history of the melody is separate from that of the words until 1835 or there-about.
 
SMHW said:
Actually John Newton is credited with the words we today associate with Amazing Grace, not the New Britain melody. The history of the melody is separate from that of the words until 1835 or there-about.
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Thanks. Good to know and makes sense.

My organist’s hymnal has John Newton 1725-1807 as the lyricist. The tune is “Amazing Grace” with Virginia Harmony, 1831, Harm. by Edwin O Excell, 1851-1921.

The hymnal also has a “Mary’s Song of Praise” based on the Magnificat, by Anne Carter, b 1944. It “may be sung to the tune of Amazing Grace or any Common Meter tune.”
 
ProVobis said:
Thanks. Good to know and makes sense.

My organist’s hymnal has John Newton 1725-1807 as the lyricist. The tune is “Amazing Grace” with Virginia Harmony, 1831, Harm. by Edwin O Excell, 1851-1921.

The hymnal also has a “Mary’s Song of Praise” based on the Magnificat, by Anne Carter, b 1944. It “may be sung to the tune of Amazing Grace or any Common Meter tune.”
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The melody seems to have been standardized sometime in the first part of the 19th Century. But I’ve heard it suggested that it may have been around for much, much longer in some form or another.
 
ProVobis said:
You probably won’t hear too many Protestant-inspired hymns at Spanish or Polish Masses. At least I haven’t heard any there.
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Oh you obviously haven’t heard Sublime Gracia Del Senor or Cristo mi Amo? 😃 Spanish hymnody is sadly not very good. They don’t have a great tradition of hymn writing like the Germans and English so most of the Catholic hymns are happy-clappy type stuff written in the last 40 years, and the few traditional ones come from a union of the presbyterian and other spanish protestant churches, some of which - ironically - are a translation of Latin hymns.
 
YoungTradCath said:
In my opinion, arguments like these prove just how much there needs to be a very tightly regulated national body of music from which American parishes can choose from. At least as regards hymns.

But, that’ll probably be another 80 years down the road! =D
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I would be willing to bet that if such a list of acceptable hymns is ever made that Amazing Grace will be on that list. It is the most beloved hymn in our culture. I know that when I use it at Mass it is the most well-received hymn. Granted, we have a huge percentage of Protestant converts, but that is the culture of this country.

Personally, I will continue to use it until directed otherwise by proper authority, or until some major change of what is taught in my parish would make it imprudent.
 
SMHW said:
The melody seems to have been standardized sometime in the first part of the 19th Century. But I’ve heard it suggested that it may have been around for much, much longer in some form or another.
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I think I read a claim somewhere that it was originally a Scottish folk-tune. I thought it was a certain CD I have, but I just checked and it just says “John Newton, English, 1725-1807, wrote the lyrics to a traditional melody”.
 
RosalieM said:
The last time “The Lord of the Dance” came up for us in choir to sing, I couldn’t sing it.
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Yeah, that song’s gross. Such awful poetry. I firmly believe that artistic quality should very much matter. We need to offer our best to God, not our slop.
 
Cat said:
Allow me to clarify one of my posts above.

When I referred to the Catholic Church and the Mass as “pagan” or “idol-worshipping,” I meant that to refer to how I and my husband felt about the Catholic Church and Mass while we were PROTESTANT.

I THOUGHT I had made that clear in my post by the way I worded the sentence. I apologize for my inadequate writing if some were offended. I did not intend to imply any such thing about the Catholic Church.

I am grateful to be Catholic! And I work hard to convince my Protestant relatives and friends of the truth of the Catholic Church.
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I thought it was worded clearly.
 
For the record I’m neutral on Amazing Grace…I love the hymnody, but I suppose it’s all preference?

But, could we please not talk about Lord of the Dance? Just thinking of that should be heresy.
 
RosalieM said:
Hear, hear. The last time “The Lord of the Dance” came up for us in choir to sing, I couldn’t sing it. Our Lord didn’t “dance” on to the cross. He didn’t “dance” for the scribes and pharisees. And, excuse me, but “whipped and stripped”? Because it rhymes simplistically? and “Leapt up high” is supposed to be what…the Ascension? “Devil on your back”?
Stop it. Those words are just so wrong and make light of His crucifixion and resurrection.
I will never sing that song again. If choir is assigned to sing it ever again, I’ll just cover my face with my binder.
See for yourself:
I danced in the morning when the world was begun,
And I danced in the moon and the stars and the sun,
I came down from heaven and I danced on the earth;
At Bethlehem I had my birth.

Refrain:
Dance, then, wherever you may be;
I am the Lord of the Dance, said he,
And I’ll lead you all, wherever you may be,
And I’ll lead you all in the dance, said he.

I danced for the scribe and the pharisee,
But they would not dance and they would not follow me.
I danced for the fishermen, for James and John
They came with me and the dance went on.

Refrain

I danced on the Sabbeth and I cured the lame;
The holy people said it was a shame.
They whipped and they stripped and they hung me on high;
They left me there on a cross to die.

Refrain

I danced on a Friday when the sky turned black
It’s hard to dance with the devil on your back.
They buried my body and they thought I’d gone;
But I’m the dance and I still go on.

Refrain

They cut me down and I leapt up high;
I am the life that will never, never die;
I’ll live in you if you’ll live in me
I am the Lord of the Dance said he.

Refrain
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It’s a poem.

It’s not about Jesus dancing, or anyone dancing. This is poetical language and should not be taken literally.

Remember “a tree who may in summer wear a nest of robins in her hair.”

Trees don’t have hair.

And trees don’t “wear” anything.

It’s poetry.

I can understand that if someone uses English as a second language, they may not recognize poetry when they see/hear it.

But someone who was born and raised in the United States or any country where English is used should be able to distinguish poetical language from other uses of language., and they should know that poetry should NOT be interpreted literally. This ability to recognize poetry should be learned when a child is in middle school, or possibly high school. But it should be learned, for it is a useful skill to know whether someone is talking about a hairy tree (freaky and frightening!) or just using a very lovely poetical phrase to describe the tree in the back yard.

Someone who insists that the hymn “Lord of the Dance” is talking about Jesus “dancing” will give an impression of ignorance, and make it difficult for others to take any of their claims seriously. This could compromise the person’s Christian witness.

If you don’t like the poem, that’s OK. But please recognize that others DO like it. I love “Lord of the Dance,” and appreciate the beautiful imagery in the poem.
 
Cat said:
Someone who insists that the hymn “Lord of the Dance” is talking about Jesus “dancing” will give an impression of ignorance, and make it difficult for others to take any of their claims seriously. This could compromise the person’s Christian witness.

If you don’t like the poem, that’s OK. But please recognize that others DO like it. I love “Lord of the Dance,” and appreciate the beautiful imagery in the poem.
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Cat, do you remember American Bandstand with Dick Clark? At one point in the show the kids were asked to rate a couple of new songs. It seems the songs with the best ratings were “It’s easy to dance to.” I don’t even think they had time to make out the lyrics.

I have to admit “Lord of the Dance” tune is rather perky and easy to play so I’d give it a 7. 🙂
 
liturgyluver said:
Oh you obviously haven’t heard Sublime Gracia Del Senor or Cristo mi Amo? 😃 Spanish hymnody is sadly not very good. They don’t have a great tradition of hymn writing like the Germans and English so most of the Catholic hymns are happy-clappy type stuff written in the last 40 years, and the few traditional ones come from a union of the presbyterian and other spanish protestant churches, some of which - ironically - are a translation of Latin hymns.
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LL, that happy-clappy stuff at a Spanish Mass seems to sound sincere and reverent. For some reason the same type music at an English Mass doesn’t. Am I the only one who feels this way? 🤷
 
There is always this:

Amazing Grace…Will always be my song of praise.
For it was grace, that brought me liberty,
I do not know, just why He came to love me so.
He looked beyond my faults and saw my need.

I shall forever lift mine eyes to Calvary,
To view the cross, where Jesus died for me
How marvelous, His grace that caught my falling soul
He Looked beyond my faults and saw my need. (Tune of Londonderry Air)

I hope one day to sing* Amazing Grace* in Heaven.
 
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