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thewanderer
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Also, please understand that I am not just trying to push an agenda, I am truly interested in figuring this out because it doesn’t make any sense to me.
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HelenRose
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You are right. It doesn’t make sense. Most Catholics would agree with you. You are not arguing with the Catholic Church you are arguing with individuals who have their own ideas about what should be acceptable.
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Zosimus41
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Good day this is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice and be glad!
I hope this day finds you in good health thewanderer!
you not think that the Catholic Church can take practices that originated elsewhere and make them Catholic? Dont forget your conversing with a guy who loves the Latin Rite not a lot of “change goings on there”. You speak (type) as though the church needs
to evolve along side mankind and for what? to keep us from getting bored with the mass? To keep us entertained?
She has been going strong for over 2000 years The first 1500 I might add with out the help of protestant tunes!
The Catholic Church is the repository of truth. Anything that is true in another religion/culture ultimately belongs to the Catholic Church Your making me step out on a limb here…So here I go. We already have the truth public revelation its closed.
Do you know what happens when the priest allows culture change in his parish? Here are some examples youtube.com/watch?v=zeP_EdQc5so&feature=related before you feel the need to break down the video Its just meant to give you a picture of whats going on because of “cultural and protestant influences” No I dont agree 100% with the video but I think its a good look at the abuses.
This is what happens when people are left to their own devices.
Mass isnt meant to be touchy feely we are not there for applause and good music.
How many days was moses up on the mountain before they people started up with the golden calf? It wasnt long. The calf was self fulfilling
Christmas trees we dont need them to celebrate mass do we? My answer is the same mass is beautiful Holy on its own. My fulilment comes from the Eucharist, the blessing the preist gives me.Not by the Christmas trees and ribbons I can do without those things.
See I dont go to mass to hold hands and sing inspirational songs if that was the case
I would go down the street to our penticostal neighbors.
I ask you this. If I give you a copy of instructions you then make other copies hand them out to others then they make copies what starts to happen? Words start to go off center and disapear off the page. Youve seen old bad copies before Im sure.
soon you can only make out a small portion.
We are catholic for a reason the problem is that peple have different ideas of what catholic means. You can dress up a protestant to look like a catholic but insidehe/she is still a protestant.
Our churches history has a long list of making minor mistakes (outside of her teaching in morals and faith) Whenever its influenced by the worldy ways of some of the people. Once pictures and icons of Chirsts and the saints were banned by an emperor it took a council for restoration, Heretical teachers such as Pelagius have been pronounced orthodox and had to be retracted.
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Zosimus41
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I had to look up the definition for “pique” online dictionary definition
to affect with sharp irritation and resentment.
I would say that does describe my feelings when it comes to loosing our catholic identity.
If I may extend my reproach to encompass not just amazing grace or any other protestant tunes. With all do respect humility and charty. There are many liturgical abuses going on in the church due to liberal and protestant mindsets.
**And yes we do have the right to express our concerns as lay people of the church. The Voice of the Faithful **
Can. 212 §3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals
AMEN and AMEN
I do not claim to be of any authority nor theologian only expressing my views
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Diana_Catherine
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Portrait
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Dear HelenRose,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
Indeed, when John Newton spoke of the “Amazing grace” that saved a “wretch” like him, he was recording a piece of spiritual autobiography. Prior to his wonderful conversion to the religion of Christ he had been, on his own confession, ‘an infidel and libertine’, and had lived a godless and dissolute life. However, now all that had been changed and it was God’s “Amazing grace” that had accomplished this work in a poor sinner’s heart - is it any wonder that the word ‘grace’ sounded so very sweet to him?
To the end of his long and eventful life this Anglican Evangelical clergyman never got over the wonder of what God had done for him, from the hour that he first believed. Like another once notorious sinner before him, St. Paul, he could say, ‘By the grace of God I am what I am’ (I Cor. 15: 10). When a very old gent he was questioned by a friend about his health. He admitted that his powers were failing and that his memory had almost gone, “but,” he said, “there are two things I can never forget, that I am a great sinner and that Jesus Christ is a great Saviour”. Jolly wonderful words those.
Of course we can heartily sing this great Protestant hymn, dear sister, as we can many other Protestant hymns, provided that their content is sound and orthodox. “Amazing Grace” certainly fits the bill on that score as it celebrates the reality of conversion to Christ and evinces most clearly and forcefully that “…if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (II Cor. 5: 17). The ‘new’ had certainly come to John Newton and he wanted to let the whole world know that it had. Any man, Catholic or Protestant, who knows the joys of a happy conversion can sing that hymn with gusto, to be sure.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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liturgyluver
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It sounds to me as if you haven’t heard of the Council of Trent, or Vatican II, or the many other proclamations that our Bishops and Popes have made over the last 200 years. You make it sound like the Roman Rite has remained static for 2000 years when that is patently not the case. The core of our fauth remains the same of course but the expression of liturgy has certainly changed though this has been carefully and properly regulated.
Nobody said anything about touchy feely music, or holding hands. The bottom line is that the church allows hymns by non-Catholics to be sung in its liturgies - this was agreed way before Vatican II incidently. We are debating the specifics of one particular hymn, and the concensus seems to be on this forum that there is nothing heretical in it.
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Portrait
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Dear liturgyluver,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
May I ask, dear friend, when exactly before VII did our Church make the decision to sing non-Catholic Hymns at Holy Mass? I have always been interested in this and I thought that at one time all Protestant hymns were proscriptive in its liturgies.
Thankyou and God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
PS Jolly good to meet a fellow UK resident on the boards.
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thewanderer
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Ok, from this reply its clear that you do not understand what I am trying to say and what I am not trying to say. I will clarify.
You misunderstand me. Nowhere have I said that the Church should change either rapidly or drastically. What I did say was that the Church can and has taken practices from other religions and cultures and incorporated them into Herself. This is true no matter what your view to change is. I really don’t know why you thought that you could know what my opinion on change is from this. The idea of turning the Mass into a form of entertainment happens to be particularly abhorent to me. So I would appreciate it if you would refrain from implying that I believe this is good. Please take my statements as they stand without reading into them what you assume I believe.
I honestly have no idea how this has anything to do with what I said. The point I was making is that any truth, in particular any religious truth, that can be found in another religion is already contained in the public revelation of Catholicism. In other words, it is Catholic Truth. If this were not true, one would have to adhere to the relativistic understanding of religion, where they are all true. I assume you do not adhere to this, so I assume you will recognize that any truth that exists in aother religion is ultimately Catholic.
Again, why are you talking about the dangers of imprudent change? I have never claimed to be ok with imprudent/unrestrained change.
If Christmas trees are not Catholic, they should be removed from the list of Catholic traditions and practices and prohibited from being placed in a Catholic Church. Are you saying its ok to dress up a Catholic Church with pagan decorations? According to your definition of what makes something belong to a certain religion the Christmas tree is pagan. So you have two choices, advocate for their removal from Catholic Churches or proclaim that there is nothing wrong with Catholic churches using pagan decorations. I somehow doubt you will accept the latter option which is why I asked whether or not you think they have a place within a Catholic Church.
I am glad to hear you do not go to Mass to hold hands and sing inspirational songs, neither do I. Nor would I encourage anyone to have such a motivation in attending Mass.
I honestly am not sure what you are trying to show through this, could you please explain?
Yes, I agree completely with this. My claim, on the other hand is that if a Catholic is dressed up as a protestant, there is nothing wrong with removing the protestant garb and revealing the true Catholic nature beneath.
Of course the Church has made minor mistakes and we must be careful to avoid such as much as possible. I am not sure why you are bringing this up.
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Zosimus41
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Liturgyluver Peace of Christ be with you and your family.
I think you have missed my point.
**You make it sound like the Roman Rite has remained static for 2000 years **
Static …No. Steadfast, staying the course and traditional with no errors in faith and moral for 2000 years Yes.
In the light of just 200 years thats a mere grain of sand compared to 2000 years.
Nobody said anything about touchy feely music, or holding hands
Perhaps if you go back and re-read my post then you might have an understanding of why I included it within my view point. I thought it was quite clear.
Please explain expression of liturgy has certainly changed though this has been carefully and properly regulated. What spacifically has changed? enlighten me please.
Are you talking about the “Liturgical Movement.” ?
Eight Myths About Church Music
Myth 1. When it comes to music, there’s no debating taste
Many people think that the choice of music for Mass is just up to the pastor and his musicians. Some parishes have more traditional music, others more contemporary. Many parishes have a little bit of everything under the sun.
Most Catholics know that there are laws which govern church structure and worship, but many are not aware that the popes often have set down rules for what music is admissible in church worship.
In 1967 the Vatican issued Musicam Sacram as the musical legislation binding in the Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council.
Music for the Mass is not arbitrary. Certain texts are designed by their very nature to be sung, such as the Alleluia. Others, although they may be recited, lend themselves to congregational or choral singing, such as the responses and the ordinary texts of the Mass like the gloria.
The church does not issue blacklists stating that certain songs are prohibited, but she does offer general principles in her liturgical documents
Myth 2. Music at Mass is just a nice addition; it’s not like it’s necessary or anything.
Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy calls sacred music an integral part of the liturgy. It is not an embellishment unrelated to the rites. The verb “to sing” is one of the most frequently used words in the Bible. Christian liturgy in ancient times was always sung.
Vatican II provides for the principle of progressive solemnity.But the church’s preference is always for sung liturgy. He who sings prays twice, said St. Augustine, and the church’s prayer has inspired some of the most beautiful art and music in history.
Myth 3. We are supposed to sing four hymns at Mass.
Catholics in the United States have become used to singing a hymn at the entrance, at the offertory, during Communion and at the recessional at Sunday Mass. This “four-hymn sandwich” actually harkens back to pre-Vatican II days in which congregations who could not pull off Latin music were allowed to sing English hymns at Low Masses.
When English was allowed in the Mass and the rite of Mass changed, many parishes continued this practice, albeit often with different music. While hymns are allowed at Mass, they are not actually what the church asks for during those times.
Hymns are not a part of the Roman eucharistic liturgy; they belong more properly to the Liturgy of the Hours. The church prefers the antiphons drawn from the Bible to hymns composed by people. cite St Paul Catholic church Pensacola FL
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Zosimus41
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Myth 4. Vatican II abolished Latin in the Mass.
Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy states, “The use of the Latin language is to be preserved.” The council fathers commanded the use of Latin while allowing for some use of the vernacular.
The same document also calls for the faithful to be able to sing parts of the Mass together in Latin. Latin gives the church a universal language.
The point of Latin is not to make the rites impossible to understand; it is to make real the universality of the church.
One can often see people at international Masses who can all make the Latin responses and sing some things together in Latin. A powerful experience of the church’s unity is when we all sing with one voice the same words that Catholics have always sung at Mass.
Myth 5. The church does not have her own hymnal.
The Graduale Romanum is the official hymnal for the Roman rite. It contains Latin chants for the entrance, the Psalm and Gospel acclamation, the offertory and Communion, which are collectively called the Propers of the Mass, for every Mass of the year.
They also provide Latin chants for Lord have mercy, glory to God, the creed, holy holy holy and Lamb of God, collectively called the Ordinary of the Mass. Music at Mass should always refer to these texts.
The monks of Solesmes have done several critical editions of this hymnal, including one which can be used for the reformed liturgy. Pastors and musicians may provide for other music at Mass, and even develop other hymnals, but Gregorian chant has, as Vatican II tells us, pride of place in the liturgy. The Graduale Romanum is an indispensable tool for the church musician.
Myth 6. Chant is too hard for people today to sing.
There are two principal obstacles to chant today. Many people are no longer fluent enough in Latin to understand or even pronounce it properly, and even most musicians are unfamiliar with its notation.
Just as it takes practice and education to play an instrument well, it takes time and patience to learn the language and the markings of chant. There are resources for musicians to learn the chant properly, and teaching choirs and congregations chant may take time, but it will yield amazing results.
When Msgr. Martin Hellriegel became pastor of Holy Cross in St. Louis in the 1950s, nobody in his parish had ever heard chant. He started teaching the school children, and the adults were inspired to learn. Within a few years, his people knew several chant Masses and could sing out of the church’s official hymnal, the Graduale Roman*um.
Dedication and perseverance gave the people confidence that they could sing Gregorian chant and many people today still know from memory the music they learned in the parish.
Myth 7. Music is supposed to make me feel good at Mass.
Music, especially at Mass, can be very powerful. The point of sacred music, though, is not to make us feel good. Sacred music accompanies the church’s rites to bring us beyond our own emotions and experiences to a transcendent experience of the divine.
The haunting beauty of the church’s traditional funeral music, for example, stresses the mystery of death and the hope of the resurrection. It is far superior to singing a loved one’s favorite radio tune as a memorial. cite St Paul Catholic Church Pensacola FL
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Zosimus41
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What I did say was that the Church can and has taken practices from other religions and cultures and incorporated them into Herself. Yes I get it… and my response was for you to take a look at the video and see for yourself what dangers there are when incorporating “religions and cultures” I dont understand why your having difficulty correlating my answers with your questions. I cant break it down any further.
The idea of turning the Mass into a form of entertainment happens to be particularly abhorent to me. Entertainment-Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts.Why do you chooseto sing Amazing Grace at mass? for what reason? its pleasing to the ears moves the soul? We have a multude of Catholic music to choose from.
Again, why are you talking about the dangers of imprudent change? I have never claimed to be ok with imprudent/unrestrained change Again for me it all ties in together.To allow anything in the church from outside does create change.
what is it about the music that we need outside influence. Our music lackssomething? the mass is lacking? Thats exactly why I positioned it towards entertainment.
Analogy If I gave you a glass of milk and you added chocolate to it Why yes its still milk
but you added a change of flavour (Im going to regret that analogy im sure of it)
After all this the really small point I want to make is people have the tendency to take things too far.You may not agree to making the connection of protestant songs at mass that dont seem to go against catholic teachings to liturgical abuses But for me they go hand in hand where one person thinks theres no harm in singing Amazing grace or Kumbaya another person will take it a step further. It truly happens.You can see it in these so called charismatic catholic churches like in the video.
Of course the Church has made minor mistakes and we must be careful to avoid such as much as possible. I am not sure why you are bringing this up
I bring it up because I think its a mistake to sing protestant songsin the church
Pax Christi I pray all is going well with you
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bmadamsberry
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One just has to look at the Mass itself and see a good number of practices that the Mass and the Church has taken on from other religions and cultures. The very clothes of the priest harkens to the clothing of Romans in the earliest days of the Church. The filioque used in the Mass originated in Spain as a way to fight against Arianism, and continued on into the Frankish Masses (the Pope was essentially the last one to place the filioque into the Creed at Mass).
The form of Mass used in the Latin Rite has had extensive change over time. What matters isn’t the change and how much change, but whether that change furthers true worship and true understanding. Change can be good and bad. Sure one can take change too far, but one can also not take change far enough.
Mass should be enjoyable, certainly. How can one effectively worship if one is contantly feeling like they have to go to Mass, and they have to suffer through it. No, Mass should be enjoyable. That doesn’t mean that the enjoyable aspect is the sole or primary concern, but it should certainly be a subtle part.
I also have a problem with the idea that feelings and emotions should somehow be absent from Mass! When a song choice is made, part of the decision should rest upon whether that song is invoking the right emotions, and whether it is invoking emotions at all. Mass, as well as the entirety of the Catholic Faith, does not and should not rest solely on emotions and feelings, but those are important! If a song is pleasing to the ears, moves the soul, and is not contrary to the Catholic Faith, then why not sing it at Mass?
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Zosimus41
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When your my age you learn to pick and choose your battles and one battle at a time my friend.
I work rotating two week shifts four hours south away from my house and worked as a volunteer at clinic for low income famlies it was so busy 1 1/2 hours north of my house this past week on my day off. Tonight I have to drive four hours to be back at my clinic by 7am… Next week not much better we are moving the movers will be here Saturday morning
annnnd I start a new job on June 4th! Im tired just looking at what I typed
So my plate thanks be to God is full.
My point? Im really tired and my wits are all drained. The two marbles I have left rolling around in my head have rolled out unto the floor!
Your call… if you want we can pick this up another day once things have setteled down a bit on my end.
Peace of Christ be with you
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HelenRose
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I have heard Ave Maria sung in Protestant Churches.
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liturgyluver
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Greetings Zosimus
I am not sure it is a good idea to lift piece from the internet to illustrate a point. Most of the “myths” that you posted are not relevant for this particular discussion, but understandably the writer has been selective in what authorities he quotes to support his arguments.
Perhaps he forgot about the encyclical *Mediator Dei *way back in 1947 that said “hymns can be a powerful aid in keeping the faithful from attending the Holy Sacrifice like dumb spectators. They help to make the faithful accompany the sacred services both mentally and vocally and to join their own piety to the prayers of the priest…We rejoice to know that this is done in many parts of the Catholic world.”
Musicum Sacrum, and later documents from the Bishops’ Committee all affirmed the practice that hymns were allowed at mass.
The document is also wrong to call the Graduale Romanum a hymn book - it is nothing of the kind. As you will know, It contains the propers of the mass which I agree are very beautiful and should not be lost. There are many Catholic churches which sing the propers chorally each week and that is to be commended but this doesn’t mean that hymns are not allowed where it is not possible, practical or expedient for the Propers to be sung.
I do agree that that more parishes need to chant the priestly dialogues at the Introductory Rites, during the Eucharistic Prayer and at Dismissal.
The bottom line is that hymns are permitted, including those by non-Catholic authors (some of whom have written the greatest hymns we have), but hymns work best if they are properly selected acoording to te point in the mass, and the liturgical year.
I am not sure it is a good idea to lift piece from the internet to illustrate a point. Most of the “myths” that you posted are not relevant for this particular discussion, but understandably the writer has been selective in what authorities he quotes to support his arguments.
Perhaps he forgot about the encyclical *Mediator Dei *way back in 1947 that said “hymns can be a powerful aid in keeping the faithful from attending the Holy Sacrifice like dumb spectators. They help to make the faithful accompany the sacred services both mentally and vocally and to join their own piety to the prayers of the priest…We rejoice to know that this is done in many parts of the Catholic world.”
Musicum Sacrum, and later documents from the Bishops’ Committee all affirmed the practice that hymns were allowed at mass.
The document is also wrong to call the Graduale Romanum a hymn book - it is nothing of the kind. As you will know, It contains the propers of the mass which I agree are very beautiful and should not be lost. There are many Catholic churches which sing the propers chorally each week and that is to be commended but this doesn’t mean that hymns are not allowed where it is not possible, practical or expedient for the Propers to be sung.
I do agree that that more parishes need to chant the priestly dialogues at the Introductory Rites, during the Eucharistic Prayer and at Dismissal.
The bottom line is that hymns are permitted, including those by non-Catholic authors (some of whom have written the greatest hymns we have), but hymns work best if they are properly selected acoording to te point in the mass, and the liturgical year.
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liturgyluver
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Me too in Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed and Presbyterian churches. I have never been to a Baptist liturgy though so can’t comment on that.
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ProVobis
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I believe I tried to make that point once concerning something sung in churches which is seldom if ever prayed. Seems a little inconsistent but maybe they like the tune more than the words.
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Diana_Catherine
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I heard it once in a Methodist church but I can’t imagine it would ever be sung in a Baptist church or a Church of Christ which are the two churches he listed when he made the comment.
Hopefully, wouldn’t that be the better thing. Catholic ideas and music moving into the protestant churches verses protestant ideas and music moving into the Catholic churches.
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bmadamsberry
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It isn’t Protestant ideas moving into the Catholic Church, at least it shouldn’t be (again, Amazing Grace is compatible with Catholic theology). Also, it isn’t like every song we hear at Mass is Protestant in origin. There are a few, but not a ton.
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