Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

[thewanderer]

When your my age you learn to pick and choose your battles and one battle at a time my friend.

I work rotating two week shifts four hours south away from my house and worked as a volunteer at clinic for low income famlies it was so busy 1 1/2 hours north of my house this past week on my day off. Tonight I have to drive four hours to be back at my clinic by 7am… Next week not much better we are moving the movers will be here Saturday morning
annnnd I start a new job on June 4th! Im tired just looking at what I typed
So my plate thanks be to God is full.

My point? Im really tired and my wits are all drained. The two marbles I have left rolling around in my head have rolled out unto the floor!

Your call… if you want we can pick this up another day once things have setteled down a bit on my end.

Peace of Christ be with you

I’m sorry that you are so busy! I hope it all goes well. I didn’t mean to focus on Christmas trees. I was bringing it up because it is something that to me seems inconsistant in the views of most of those I’ve met who hold the idea that the origin is always what determines the identity, I didn’t mean to come across as attacking you on it, which, in retrospect, I most likely did.
I would love to continue discussing this at some point, but I understand if other duties get in the way, real life is much more important than internet discusions. For now I’ll just have to hope that someone else who thinks this way has time on their hands and is willing to explain it, otherwise I will continue to be at a loss. Not that thats the end of the world either, I just really like having discussions like this to understand other why other people think differently.

 

[pnewton]

The idea of turning the Mass into a form of entertainment happens to be particularly abhorent to me. Entertainment-Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts.Why do you chooseto sing Amazing Grace at mass?

I can speak for myself. I use it when the readings and homily are on the God’s grace and mercy.

for what reason? its pleasing to the ears moves the soul? We have a multude of Catholic music to choose from.

Again for me it all ties in together.To allow anything in the church from outside does create change.

The selection fo music is not a “change”. It is something allowable. Note that this hymn is even included in the Liturgy of the Hours. You can’t get more Catholic than that.

But for me they go hand in hand where one person thinks theres no harm in singing Amazing grace or Kumbaya another person will take it a step further. It truly happens.You can see it in these so called charismatic catholic churches like in the video.

I would note that contrary to what you are posting, the Charismatic Renewal is a legitimate form of Catholic spirituality. An authentic catholic spirit of universality and obedience should not second guess the Holy Spirit as it acts in the authority of the Church today. As far as Kum Ba Yah, while I would never use the song, it always strikes me as ironic that this becomes a whipping post against modern music. This song is the exact same exhortation as Veni Sancte Spiritus, or Come Holy Ghost.

I think the frequent criticism that Mass is not entertainment is legitimate, but only to a point. There is nothing wrong with Mass being emotionally uplifting and pleasing to the ear. It is this very reason that I support an increase of the old form of the Mass. This still appeals to some Catholics and it is a good thing to make Mass emotionally uplifting. More to the point, the essence of Sacramental theology is an appeal to the senses. God did not need to provide Grace through our touch and our taste, but He did. He could have provided only a spiritual form of communion. Yet as human beings, we are more receptive when we see, hear, taste.

 

[pnewton]

Lest I have given the impression that I am all for modern music, I would like to clarify that I am all for it in part. My on favorite and most of the stuff I do is traditional style hymns, as are found in the LOTH. With this I mix some of the newer stuff in the hymnals and some Latin. As I learn more, I am increasing the amount of Latin chant and traditional Catholic hymns, some of which I never heard of until I became Catholic.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

It isn’t Protestant ideas moving into the Catholic Church, at least it shouldn’t be (again, Amazing Grace is compatible with Catholic theology). Also, it isn’t like every song we hear at Mass is Protestant in origin. There are a few, but not a ton.

I agree. There aren’t a lot but there are some. I just think it would be great if it were the other way around.

 

[thewanderer]

I agree. There aren’t a lot but there are some. I just think it would be great if it were the other way around.

I think the few was refering to songs that are protestant in origin.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I think the few was refering to songs that are protestant in origin.

I guess I should clarify. I agree there aren’t a ton of protestant songs in the Catholic church (there are some) but it would be great if Catholic songs were moving into protestant churches.

 

[thewanderer]

I guess I should clarify. I agree there aren’t a ton of protestant songs in the Catholic church (there are some) but it would be great if Catholic songs were moving into protestant churches.

Gotcha! I read that as you wished there to be more ofthe few (Protestant) songs and less of the many (ie Catholic) in Catholic Churches. And I was pretty sure that wasn’t what you wanted to imply!

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Gotcha! I read that as you wished there to be more ofthe few (Protestant) songs and less of the many (ie Catholic) in Catholic Churches. And I was pretty sure that wasn’t what you wanted to imply!

Thanks!

 

[Zosimus41]

I’m sorry that you are so busy! I hope it all goes well. I didn’t mean to focus on Christmas trees. I was bringing it up because it is something that to me seems inconsistant in the views of most of those I’ve met who hold the idea that the origin is always what determines the identity, I didn’t mean to come across as attacking you on it, which, in retrospect, I most likely did.
I would love to continue discussing this at some point, but I understand if other duties get in the way, real life is much more important than internet discusions. For now I’ll just have to hope that someone else who thinks this way has time on their hands and is willing to explain it, otherwise I will continue to be at a loss. Not that thats the end of the world either, I just really like having discussions like this to understand other why other people think differently.

The wanderer,

May God Bless you and your family.

Dont worry about the “Christmas Tree” issue Ironically during the move the Methodist
church was having a huge garage sale we bought a 7 1/2 foot Christmas Tree for 15.00!!
Its a nice one too.

If I stated anything that may have caused any bad feelings please forgive me.

My point with the whole amazing grace thing is I have a belief that we already have enough outside influence. As I posted before. Alter girls,extra ordinary Eucharistic Ministers. Everyone jumping up going to communion (I remember having to navagate past people staying seated during cummunion) While individually these dont seem much like any problem but when you have a mass with all these added together

Alter girls,Female lectors, Female/an army of Eucharistic ministers,no alter rails, Singing amazing grace,Eucharistic Ministers blessing the children, Clapping, The list goes on and on.

Lets be honest it looks more like a protestant service than it does a reflection of a Roman Catholic Mass.

I think it lends itself to a whole lot of liturgical abuses.

A muslim once said if I believe the way you believe I would be on my face to receive communion. Thats from a Fathers Sermon explinations of the Latin Rite on you tube

Im not the only one that feels this way. Theres sadley a minority of folks that feel the same way or at least in the same ballpark.

I tried to point out also in previous posts the church has gone astray from its traditional ways due to outside influences and pressure from its members.

For one example through history.Pelagius with his heretical teachings once had the ear of the church.

We have groups now trying to get the church to accept women as preist and gay marriage.

In this politically correct world we live in its a call to be charitable as not to offend anyone.This allows a live and let live attitude
But better we not offend God as he is not pollitically correct.

I mean look at Micheal Jackson how many times was this guy accused of child molestation yet hes glorfied not boycotted. Seems our young nation has a real short memory.

Peace be with you and I hope all is well

 

[Zosimus41]

Greetings Zosimus

I am not sure it is a good idea to lift piece from the internet to illustrate a point. Most of the “myths” that you posted are not relevant for this particular discussion, but understandably the writer has been selective in what authorities he quotes to support his arguments.

Perhaps he forgot about the encyclical *Mediator Dei *way back in 1947 that said “hymns can be a powerful aid in keeping the faithful from attending the Holy Sacrifice like dumb spectators. They help to make the faithful accompany the sacred services both mentally and vocally and to join their own piety to the prayers of the priest…We rejoice to know that this is done in many parts of the Catholic world.”

Musicum Sacrum, and later documents from the Bishops’ Committee all affirmed the practice that hymns were allowed at mass.

The document is also wrong to call the Graduale Romanum a hymn book - it is nothing of the kind. As you will know, It contains the propers of the mass which I agree are very beautiful and should not be lost. There are many Catholic churches which sing the propers chorally each week and that is to be commended but this doesn’t mean that hymns are not allowed where it is not possible, practical or expedient for the Propers to be sung.

I do agree that that more parishes need to chant the priestly dialogues at the Introductory Rites, during the Eucharistic Prayer and at Dismissal.

The bottom line is that hymns are permitted, including those by non-Catholic authors (some of whom have written the greatest hymns we have), but hymns work best if they are properly selected acoording to te point in the mass, and the liturgical year.

Peace of Christ be with you!

Abandoning the traditional music and texts of the Mass was clearly not the intention of the Council.
In 1993 by the US Bishops Committee on the Liturgy: BCL Newsletter, Volume XXIX, August-Sept 1993, paragraph 9-11.

In spite of these efforts to promote the sung liturgy, preference continues to be given to singing during the Mass instead of singing the Mass. In fact many of the faithful interpret singing the liturgy to mean singing hymns or songs. Thus those involved in liturgical preparations oftentimes confine themselves to the selection of hymns as their first priority and neglect the singing of ritual texts. Likewise many composers give preference to the composition of hymns and other sacred songs rather than to the ritual texts of the liturgy…THATS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.

).

 

[Zosimus41]

One just has to look at the Mass itself and see a good number of practices that the Mass and the Church has taken on from other religions and cultures. The very clothes of the priest harkens to the clothing of Romans in the earliest days of the Church. The filioque used in the Mass originated in Spain as a way to fight against Arianism, and continued on into the Frankish Masses (the Pope was essentially the last one to place the filioque into the Creed at Mass).

The form of Mass used in the Latin Rite has had extensive change over time. What matters isn’t the change and how much change, but whether that change furthers true worship and true understanding. Change can be good and bad. Sure one can take change too far, but one can also not take change far enough.

Mass should be enjoyable, certainly. How can one effectively worship if one is contantly feeling like they have to go to Mass, and they have to suffer through it. No, Mass should be enjoyable. That doesn’t mean that the enjoyable aspect is the sole or primary concern, but it should certainly be a subtle part.

I also have a problem with the idea that feelings and emotions should somehow be absent from Mass! When a song choice is made, part of the decision should rest upon whether that song is invoking the right emotions, and whether it is invoking emotions at all. Mass, as well as the entirety of the Catholic Faith, does not and should not rest solely on emotions and feelings, but those are important! If a song is pleasing to the ears, moves the soul, and is not contrary to the Catholic Faith, then why not sing it at Mass?

Mass should be enjoyable, certainly. How can one effectively worship if one is contantly feeling like they have to go to Mass, and they have to suffer through it.

Thats interesting because if you believe in the true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
isnt that enjoyable enough? You need further inspiration?

Ive been at low mass with NO HYMNS as I watch the mass unfold From the greeting to Transubstantiation Its wondrous!!

The mass is to be sung Not singing in mass.

If you truly understand whats going on in the mass I believe you would have no need of anything outside of The Roman Catholic TEXTS. Its enough excitement, joy, and inspiration any humanbeing would ever want or need its your salvation!

For example when I receive the Eucharist my mind is not on “enjoying myself” as if I need to be entertained some how as not to be bored with going to mass.

Perhaps thats why protestant churches have flashy dressed preachers and mood music
because they lack the Eucharist. They need fulfilment in the form music and entertaining preachers so they dont get bored listening to the word.Its their way of receiving a physical aspect of God.

We have fulfilment a physical aspect of receiving God and it can be done in silence its called Receiving the Eucharist.

The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.” Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake
And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice

 

[Zosimus41]

In 1969 the Sacred Congregation of Rites responded to a [sic] inquiry on whether the instruction of September 3, 1958, which allowed for singing of four vernacular hymns during a recited Mass still applied. The response, published in Notitiae, stated: “That rule [permitting vernacular hymns] has been superseded. What must be sung is the Mass, its Ordinary and Proper, not “something”, no matter how consistent, that is imposed on the Mass. Because the liturgical service is one, it has only one countenance, one motif, one voice, the voice of the Church. To continue to replace the texts of the Mass being celebrated with motets that are reverent and devout, yet out of keeping with the Mass of the day amounts to continuing an unacceptable ambiguity: it is to cheat the people. Liturgical song involves not mere melody, but words, text, thought and the sentiments that the poetry and music contain. Thus texts must be those of the Mass, not others, and singing means singing the Mass not just singing during Mass.” (Notitiae 5 [1969] 406).

 

[Cat]

In 1969 the Sacred Congregation of Rites responded to a [sic] inquiry on whether the instruction of September 3, 1958, which allowed for singing of four vernacular hymns during a recited Mass still applied. The response, published in Notitiae, stated: “That rule [permitting vernacular hymns] has been superseded. What must be sung is the Mass, its Ordinary and Proper, not “something”, no matter how consistent, that is imposed on the Mass. Because the liturgical service is one, it has only one countenance, one motif, one voice, the voice of the Church. To continue to replace the texts of the Mass being celebrated with motets that are reverent and devout, yet out of keeping with the Mass of the day amounts to continuing an unacceptable ambiguity: it is to cheat the people. Liturgical song involves not mere melody, but words, text, thought and the sentiments that the poetry and music contain. Thus texts must be those of the Mass, not others, and singing means singing the Mass not just singing during Mass.” (Notitiae 5 [1969] 406).

What I hear you saying is that most of the bishops in the U.S. are doing Mass by allowing hymns. Is this what you are saying?

A few weeks ago, our diocese ordained and installed our new bishop. The Mass was magnificent, with over 5000 people in attendance (it was held at the local arena to accomodate the large crowds). Cardinal Francis George was the celebrant, and Cardinal Timothy Dolan was one of the many dignitaries in attendance.

And hymns were sung.

The new bishop chose his music, and made wonderful selections that included not only various Latin pieces, but also several traditional and contemporary hymns. The beautiful music was acclaimed by everyone who attended the Mass or who watched it on TV (it was broadcast live by one of our local television stations, with excellent commentary by one of the priests and two really good reporters).

So if you’re saying that hymns are no longer allowed, you’re saying that several cardinals, several elite cardinals, allowed the Mass to be celebrated wrong.

Is that what you’re saying?

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

What I hear you saying is that most of the bishops in the U.S. are doing Mass by allowing hymns. Is this what you are saying?

A few weeks ago, our diocese ordained and installed our new bishop. The Mass was magnificent, with over 5000 people in attendance (it was held at the local arena to accomodate the large crowds). Cardinal Francis George was the celebrant, and Cardinal Timothy Dolan was one of the many dignitaries in attendance.

And hymns were sung.

The new bishop chose his music, and made wonderful selections that included not only various Latin pieces, but also several traditional and contemporary hymns. The beautiful music was acclaimed by everyone who attended the Mass or who watched it on TV (it was broadcast live by one of our local television stations, with excellent commentary by one of the priests and two really good reporters).

So if you’re saying that hymns are no longer allowed, you’re saying that several cardinals, several elite cardinals, allowed the Mass to be celebrated wrong.

Is that what you’re saying?

The question is: did they do the propers of the Mass or did they replace them with hymns? Propers come first.

 

[ProVobis]

The new bishop chose his music, and made wonderful selections that included not only various Latin pieces, but also several traditional and contemporary hymns. The beautiful music was acclaimed by everyone who attended the Mass or who watched it on TV (it was broadcast live by one of our local television stations, with excellent commentary by one of the priests and two really good reporters).

Did the bishop intend for this type of Mass and the pieces chosen be the norm for the diocese?

 

[bmadamsberry]

Thats interesting because if you believe in the true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist isnt that enjoyable enough? You need further inspiration?

I think you’re either misunderstanding what I’m saying, or you don’t understand human instincts.

I don’t need any more inspiration than the Eucharist to attend Mass. That does not mean, however, that I feel a saintly ecstasy every time I attend Mass. I believe in the Real Presence (I could not have converted to Catholicism, and become estranged from my Protestant family, if I did not!). I am human, and my emotions do not always reflect what I know and believe. When I watch a scary movie, I know that there is not monster that will come after me… but that doesn’t keep me from being scared!

Ive been at low mass with NO HYMNS as I watch the mass unfold From the greeting to Transubstantiation Its wondrous!!

That’s wonderful! I’ve been to Ordinary Form Masses where there was no singing and thought it wonderful. But would I find every Mass equally wonderful on a humanly emotional level? No. There is an entire book in the Bible dedicated to music… Pslams. Furthermore, the angels in Heaven are constantly singing “Holy, Holy, Holy” to G-d.

If you truly understand whats going on in the mass I believe you would have no need of anything outside of The Roman Catholic TEXTS. Its enough excitement, joy, and inspiration any humanbeing would ever want or need its your salvation!

That’s crazy. First, you are questioning my understanding, and I don’t like nor appreciate that. Secondly, I do not have need of anything outside of the Eucharist, which means I don’t need any extra text (i.e. any text aside from “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood”), hymns, etc. Why do we have text other than those 8 words? Because they better facilitate our worship of G-d. They catechize us, and lead us mentally, physically, and emotionally towards a proper worship of G-d.

For example when I receive the Eucharist my mind is not on “enjoying myself” as if I need to be entertained some how as not to be bored with going to mass.

Neither does my mind. What you are doing is taking what I am saying to a ridiculous level (I believe that’s called a straw man). I am not saying that the sole purpose of Mass is enjoyment. What I am saying is that enjoyment can help us worship G-d. Love is emotional, mental, and physical. Music helps affect the emotion. I don’t need entertainment at Mass, but I do need tools with which I can better worship G-d.

Perhaps thats why protestant churches have flashy dressed preachers and mood music
because they lack the Eucharist. They need fulfilment in the form music and entertaining preachers so they dont get bored listening to the word.Its their way of receiving a physical aspect of God.

Here’s the difference between what a Protestant might say and what I am saying. I am not saying that Mass should or does depend upon music and the emotional level. Nevertheless, we should not excise music and the emotional factor from Mass! I believe that a proper balance can be maintained between the emotional, physical, and mental factors that play a role in worship.

We have fulfilment a physical aspect of receiving God and it can be done in silence its called Receiving the Eucharist.

The reception of the Eucharist is for our benefit, not for G-d. Reception of Christ is an action G-d takes for us, not that we take for Him (even if it is us that sticks out our tongue).

In the end, I think it is ridiculous to excise the emotional part of being human from Mass. I don’t think we should depend on it (emotions are fickle, and don’t always work the way they should), but I also don’t think we should depend upon the mental or physical parts of Mass alone.

 

[Zosimus41]

The question is: did they do the propers of the Mass or did they replace them with hymns? Propers come first.

Peace of Christ be with you!

Could you please break this down into layman’s terms? You have to admit its a bit confusing

In 1969 the Sacred Congregation of Rites responded to a [sic] inquiry on whether the instruction of September 3, 1958, which allowed for singing of four vernacular hymns during a recited Mass still applied. The response, published in Notitiae, stated: “That rule [permitting vernacular hymns] has been superseded. What must be sung is the Mass, its Ordinary and Proper, not “something”, no matter how consistent, that is imposed on the Mass. Because the liturgical service is one, it has only one countenance, one motif, one voice, the voice of the Church. To continue to replace the texts of the Mass being celebrated with motets that are reverent and devout, yet out of keeping with the Mass of the day amounts to continuing an unacceptable ambiguity: it is to cheat the people. Liturgical song involves not mere melody, but words, text, thought and the sentiments that the poetry and music contain. Thus texts must be those of the Mass, not others, and singing means singing the Mass not just singing during Mass.” (Notitiae 5 [1969] 406).

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Peace of Christ be with you!

Could you please break this down into layman’s terms? You have to admit its a bit confusing

In 1969 the Sacred Congregation of Rites responded to a [sic] inquiry on whether the instruction of September 3, 1958, which allowed for singing of four vernacular hymns during a recited Mass still applied. The response, published in Notitiae, stated: “That rule [permitting vernacular hymns] has been superseded. What must be sung is the Mass, its Ordinary and Proper, not “something”, no matter how consistent, that is imposed on the Mass. Because the liturgical service is one, it has only one countenance, one motif, one voice, the voice of the Church. To continue to replace the texts of the Mass being celebrated with motets that are reverent and devout, yet out of keeping with the Mass of the day amounts to continuing an unacceptable ambiguity: it is to cheat the people. Liturgical song involves not mere melody, but words, text, thought and the sentiments that the poetry and music contain. Thus texts must be those of the Mass, not others, and singing means singing the Mass not just singing during Mass.” (Notitiae 5 [1969] 406).

The introit, offertory, communion, etc., propers (prayers for that specific Mass) need to be sung. Hymns aren’t supposed to be sung to their exclusion. Many churches still do just replace them with hymns, and I understand why (no choir), but in the case of a the bishop’s Mass that was described above, if it was so magnificent, there the Propers should have been sung. That’s why I asked if they were or not. I don’t know because that information wasn’t supplied.

 

[liturgyluver]

Peace of Christ be with you!

Could you please break this down into layman’s terms? You have to admit its a bit confusing

In 1969 the Sacred Congregation of Rites responded to a [sic] inquiry on whether the instruction of September 3, 1958, which allowed for singing of four vernacular hymns during a recited Mass still applied. The response, published in Notitiae, stated: “That rule [permitting vernacular hymns] has been superseded. What must be sung is the Mass, its Ordinary and Proper, not “something”, no matter how consistent, that is imposed on the Mass. Because the liturgical service is one, it has only one countenance, one motif, one voice, the voice of the Church. To continue to replace the texts of the Mass being celebrated with motets that are reverent and devout, yet out of keeping with the Mass of the day amounts to continuing an unacceptable ambiguity: it is to cheat the people. Liturgical song involves not mere melody, but words, text, thought and the sentiments that the poetry and music contain. Thus texts must be those of the Mass, not others, and singing means singing the Mass not just singing during Mass.” (Notitiae 5 [1969] 406).

The following documents issued by US Bishops all allow for the use of hymns at mass; Music in Catholic Worship (1972) allows hymns specifically at entrance, offertory, communion and recessional; Liturgical Music Today (1982) has a long section admonishing the shortening of hymns at procession saying their forms must be respected; Sing to the Lord (2007) goes further and has a section on hymns and canticles and affirms the use of these to replace Proper Chants. In short, then there is plenty of Official sanction from Bishops to affirm the practice of hymns at mass.

 

[Cat]

The following documents issued by US Bishops all allow for the use of hymns at mass; Music in Catholic Worship (1972) allows hymns specifically at entrance, offertory, communion and recessional; Liturgical Music Today (1982) has a long section admonishing the shortening of hymns at procession saying their forms must be respected; Sing to the Lord (2007) goes further and has a section on hymns and canticles and affirms the use of these to replace Proper Chants. In short, then there is plenty of Official sanction from Bishops to affirm the practice of hymns at mass.

Thank you for posting this.

Zosimus41, if if the esteemed and highly-respected Cardinal Dolan (who has been mentioned in quite a few media as a possibility for the first Pope from the U.S.) is “doing Mass wrong,” then Catholics are in very big trouble!

Don’t you think that bishops and cardinals know more about the authoratative documents of the Church than you or I? Don’t you think that we need to trust and obey our bishops?