R
RPRPsych
Guest
And Senator Tim Kaine is a self-described Catholic. Wheat and weeds.
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
I was recently at a Catholic funeral where Amazing Grace was a hymn for the Mass.Let’s look at the lyrics, shall we?
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me. Though such language can be interpreted more broadly, it fits into the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity, which is not Catholic.
I once was lost but now I’m found,
Was blind, but now I see. These lines refer to a monergistic model of salvation, and appear to rule out any role for human free will or cooperation.
'twas Grace that taught,
my heart to fear.
And grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear,
the hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come.
'tis grace that brought me safe thus far,
and grace will lead us home.
The Lord has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures. Could be a reference to Sola Scriptura.
He will my shield and portion be,
as long as life endures. This appears to teach “Final Perseverance”, which is not Catholic. People can and do fall away. St. Paul wasn’t discussing theoreticals in the Epistle to the Hebrews.
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise,
than when we first begun. This assumes that all the “saved” go straight to heaven; no need for purification. This makes is a singularly inappropriate song to perform at Catholic Masses for the Dead, as Clare already said.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.
Summing up, we can find four of the five “solas” in this song. Calvinism (and its Catholic counterpart, Jansenism) are heresies that a Catholic cannmot hold to. The Council of Trent is quite explicit on the issue.
L
liturgyluver
Guest
Personally I am not a fan of Amazing Grace, I just don’t like the tune but it’s use is endorsed in countless Catholic hymnals. It makes me laugh when people say “I will only sing traditional catholic hymns at mass” and then realise that there are so few such hymns as until 50 years ago, hymns were not sung at mass. I personally prefer many traditional Anglican, and some Lutheran hymns to the contemporary catholic hymns ones finds in many parishes today.
S
SJacob7
Guest
How are we to understand this then?
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
A
adamhovey1988
Guest
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LethalMouse
Guest
In a world with protestantism amazing grace has connotations beyond the simple to many.
In a world without protestantism talking of grace woul be simply a portion of our faith.
It boils down to what you get out of it.
In a world without protestantism talking of grace woul be simply a portion of our faith.
It boils down to what you get out of it.
F
FghtinIrshNvrDi
Guest
I love the tune of Amazing Grace, and hearing it on the bagpipes gives me goosebumps.
The song itself is clearly Calvinist even it isn’t wildly offensive.
Thinking about the hymns sung at Mass, I can’t even think of one that I really, truly enjoy. I can listen to Gregorian chants all day and love Kyrie in the rare chance they use it in the liturgy.
The song itself is clearly Calvinist even it isn’t wildly offensive.
Thinking about the hymns sung at Mass, I can’t even think of one that I really, truly enjoy. I can listen to Gregorian chants all day and love Kyrie in the rare chance they use it in the liturgy.
G
Graceful_Lamb
Guest
There are a few hymns from TEC that are in the hymnal. They don’t have the same richness to them that they have in the TEC, but they are okay. Most, however, are not. I knew that when I became Catholic I was going to miss the music.
The Kyrie and Gregorian chants are wonderful!
Z
zamyrabyrd
Guest
Same here.
Remember JS Bach was a Lutheran but I can’t imagine anyone questioning his piety. Yet, his music was forbidden to be played in Catholic Churches at one time. He also wrote a monumental B Minor Mass, Magnificat, absolutely beautiful Cantatas, etc. In fact all of his music was prefixed with AMDG, “for the greater glory of God”.
C
ComplineSanFran
Guest
Amazing Grace was written by an Anglican priest, John Newton, who was not Calvinist.
C
ComplineSanFran
Guest
There is something about Anglican music and hymns, isn’t there? I think it’s one of the things we do best.
F
FghtinIrshNvrDi
Guest
A question for my fellow brothers here…
Does anyone else really struggle to sing along with modern English hymns we sing at Mass? I’m always wanting to switch keys because the range is so wildly… high. It’s downright difficult to sing for me. The songs bounce along mid-range and then gradually gets higher and higher and higher, and while I’m doing my best Alvin & the Chipmunks impression I finally decide to switch keys mid-lyric so I don’t pass out from lack of oxygen.
Does anyone else really struggle to sing along with modern English hymns we sing at Mass? I’m always wanting to switch keys because the range is so wildly… high. It’s downright difficult to sing for me. The songs bounce along mid-range and then gradually gets higher and higher and higher, and while I’m doing my best Alvin & the Chipmunks impression I finally decide to switch keys mid-lyric so I don’t pass out from lack of oxygen.
G
GEddie
Guest
Then you need to learn to breathe
.Seriously, most hymnody is likely written for trained singers who know the proper breathing.
ICXC NIKA
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Is God not our shield? And do we not live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD? Are we not all sinners? Seriously. People get angry with this song over nothing.Let’s look at the lyrics, shall we?
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me. Though such language can be interpreted more broadly, it fits into the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity, which is not Catholic.
I once was lost but now I’m found,
Was blind, but now I see. These lines refer to a monergistic model of salvation, and appear to rule out any role for human free will or cooperation.
'twas Grace that taught,
my heart to fear.
And grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear,
the hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come.
'tis grace that brought me safe thus far,
and grace will lead us home.
The Lord has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures. Could be a reference to Sola Scriptura.
He will my shield and portion be,
as long as life endures. This appears to teach “Final Perseverance”, which is not Catholic. People can and do fall away. St. Paul wasn’t discussing theoreticals in the Epistle to the Hebrews.
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise,
than when we first begun. This assumes that all the “saved” go straight to heaven; no need for purification. This makes is a singularly inappropriate song to perform at Catholic Masses for the Dead, as Clare already said.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.
Summing up, we can find four of the five “solas” in this song. Calvinism (and its Catholic counterpart, Jansenism) are heresies that a Catholic cannot hold to. The Council of Trent is quite explicit on the issue.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
If it’s in a Catholic hymnal, then the person who put it in there was pretty sure it did not disagree with Catholic doctrine. Not all theologians are right.There are several Catholic theologians that disagree with your assessment. One of the first I ran into was on EWTN 10+ years ago. You can see his answer here.
You asked why some object, we have told you. You disagree.
Between a theologian and random poster on the Internet, I’ll take the one mandated by the Church to teach theology.
T
tawny
Guest
Exactly. Neither our former Pastor or new Pastor likes this hymn.
L
liturgyluver
Guest
I’m with you on this. I agree that most modern hymns are far harder to sing than the traditional ones - there are some exceptions like This is my body or Be Still for the Presence of the Lord. But give me Christ is made the Sure Foundation, Praise my Soul the King of Heaven, or Soul of my Saviour or Jerusalem the Golden any day.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Why do you Jesus said to the person who anointed His feet, “Your faith has saved you?” And aren’t we saved by the grace of God through faith? It is in Scripture.
M
MorEphrem
Guest
I’m generally unilaterally against adopting any Protestant hymnology, but it seems the only issues persons can find with Amazing Grace is when they interpret a hymn as an exhaustive, systematic and technical treatise on faith (which it is clearly not). If one consistently applied this methodology consistently to any type of corpus of hymns they’d inevitably find errors because literary devices are meant to express a concept analogically and not formulaically (e.g. St. Ephrem uses the sun as an analogy to the Trinity in Hymns on Faith 40, but concludes but saying it is not supposed to be taken literally since one analogical understanding of the Trinity is not exhaustive; elsewhere he says its like taking a drink from a fountain - you don’t do so in hopes of exhausting the fountain in one drink, but the one analogy is equivalent to one thirst-quenching drink).
Likewise, Amazing Grace is appropriate insofar as it conveys the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ. This actually came up in one of my theology classes in seminary and people were outraged by even the self-referential use of the word ‘wretch,’ and I just so happened to be carrying St. Basil on the Human Condition and showed it has a very long (i.e. since the patristic era) Christian usage. It seems like Latins in general get fixated on what they deem “Protestant notions” when really they’re simply Christian notions exemplified by [some] Protestants (Scripture…).
Likewise, Amazing Grace is appropriate insofar as it conveys the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ. This actually came up in one of my theology classes in seminary and people were outraged by even the self-referential use of the word ‘wretch,’ and I just so happened to be carrying St. Basil on the Human Condition and showed it has a very long (i.e. since the patristic era) Christian usage. It seems like Latins in general get fixated on what they deem “Protestant notions” when really they’re simply Christian notions exemplified by [some] Protestants (Scripture…).
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
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