Amazing Grace

[Oneofthewomen]

I’m generally unilaterally against adopting any Protestant hymnology, but it seems the only issues persons can find with Amazing Grace is when they interpret a hymn as an exhaustive, systematic and technical treatise on faith (which it is clearly not). If one consistently applied this methodology consistently to any type of corpus of hymns they’d inevitably find errors because literary devices are meant to express a concept analogically and not formulaically (e.g. St. Ephrem uses the sun as an analogy to the Trinity in Hymns on Faith 40, but concludes but saying it is not supposed to be taken literally since one analogical understanding of the Trinity is not exhaustive; elsewhere he says its like taking a drink from a fountain - you don’t do so in hopes of exhausting the fountain in one drink, but the one analogy is equivalent to one thirst-quenching drink).

Likewise, Amazing Grace is appropriate insofar as it conveys the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ. This actually came up in one of my theology classes in seminary and people were outraged by even the self-referential use of the word ‘wretch,’ and I just so happened to be carrying St. Basil on the Human Condition and showed it has a very long (i.e. since the patristic era) Christian usage. It seems like Latins in general get fixated on what they deem “Protestant notions” when really they’re simply Christian notions exemplified by [some] Protestants (Scripture…).

Thank you for bringing some reason to this thread.

I love this song and never understood how anyone could object. Music is not/should not be thought of as a theological treatise.

 

[Usige]

If it’s in a Catholic hymnal, then the person who put it in there was pretty sure it did not disagree with Catholic doctrine. Not all theologians are right.

No, the personal putting it in the hymnal was trying to fill out pages to make money. Given that we have hymns like Lord of the Dance that the composer said was written with the Hindu God Shiva as inspiration it is obvious that simply being in a Catholic Hymnal does not make it worthy of the Mass.

You have your opinion and asked for other’s opinions. I have shared mine.

I was talking to my spiritual director (yes, he’s a priest) yesterday about thing like this and he confirmed that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of hymns sung in Mass that weaken and distort the faith. I had said that many are just not to my taste, but perhaps not bad. He flat out said that many hymns are bad. They raise man to the same stature as God (or downplay our dependance on God) or include foreign theology. He said they are insideous at weakening the faith because music can be a very strong catechetial tool since it can by pass our normal filters and repeats in our head.

You can argue til your blue in the face, but you will not convict those of us that understand the problematic nature of these and other hymns that we are wrong and you are right.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors (what ever the goal of this thread may be).

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

No, the personal putting it in the hymnal was trying to fill out pages to make money. Given that we have hymns like Lord of the Dance that the composer said was written with the Hindu God Shiva as inspiration it is obvious that simply being in a Catholic Hymnal does not make it worthy of the Mass.

You have your opinion and asked for other’s opinions. I have shared mine.

I was talking to my spiritual director (yes, he’s a priest) yesterday about thing like this and he confirmed that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of hymns sung in Mass that weaken and distort the faith. I had said that many are just not to my taste, but perhaps not bad. He flat out said that many hymns are bad. They raise man to the same stature as God (or downplay our dependance on God) or include foreign theology. He said they are insideous at weakening the faith because music can be a very strong catechetial tool since it can by pass our normal filters and repeats in our head.

You can argue til your blue in the face, but you will not convict those of us that understand the problematic nature of these and other hymns that we are wrong and you are right.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors (what ever the goal of this thread may be).

Read the post by MorEphrem.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Technically speaking , grace is a many-splendored thing : There exists *actual grace, efficacious grace, habitual grace, justifying grace, sacramental grace,sanctifying grace, sufficient grace *. . . Modern Catholic Dictionary, Fr. John Hardon, S.J.

How did St. Francis of Assisi sum it all up again . . .? . . .

There, but for the grace of God, go I.

I’m grateful for pianistclare’s posts because for me personally, they are good reminders. I tend to become a little desensitized to the elements of that hymn which can be inappropriate at Catholic funerals. My best friend - a fellow musician colleague of many years, has played Amazing Grace (melody only) on his trumpet at countless funerals to date - some of them Catholic funerals. Equally, at those Catholic funerals, he has more often than not, also played Schubert’s Ave Maria. He’s a southern Baptist originally out of Nashville who now lives up here north of the 49th.

For all the wonderful intentions present in the aforementioned, Catholic funerals - with or without the hymn Amazing Grace , are becoming more and more misunderstood. People come to weep and to mourn (which is part of it), and to see their friends (which isn’t really part of it) yet many of them don’t think to pray for the deceased (and that is part of it - a BIG part of it). We are becoming more frequently subjected to marathon-length eulogies being given within the Mass, rather than at their proper designated intervals.

So while the hymn Amazing Grace does express a real hope in the Resurrection , within the funeral setting it has an active potential to detract (perhaps defer is a better word here) from that vital prayer for the deceased component . . . Its sentiment is more along the lines of *“I’m saved Lord by the miracle of your grace” *, when what we’re hoping to express collectively - together with the hope of the Resurrection, should be more along the lines of “Lord show them your Mercy” , and “Eternal rest grant unto them” ; even “Forgive them their sins” (as we find in the Morning Prayer of the Office for the Dead: “Free your faithful ones from the punishment they suffer for their sins.”)

That being said , the Catholic Book of Worship III (containing the hymnal) up here, which is pretty well nationally adopted for all parishes by the CCCB , includes the hymn Amazing Grace , but the hymn itself only seemed to be suggested for the 11th Sunday in Ordinary Time for Year C {Here}

 

[NeedImprovement]

What is ironic about the hymn Amazing Grace found in the current CBW III up here is that someone has taken the liberty to change the words from

That saved a wretch like me

so that they read

That saved and rescued me

:ehh:

:dts:

I think that, even if some don’t want the hymn to be defended , at the very least we should try to understand the author so that he doesn’t get a bad rap by some overly-zealous theological interpretation which has begun to converge upon the paralysis of analysis ; or similarly as MorEphrem puts it,

“. . . when they interpret a hymn as an exhaustive, systematic and technical treatise on faith (which it is clearly not).”

The passage

When we’ve been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun. We’ve no less days . . .

could be much more simply interpreted as hope in Christ’s own words :

Matt 13:43 (NAB)
"Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears ought to hear.".

Neither does that particular verse about “bright shining as the sun”, according to this Baptist & Reformed site ever appear in the original hymn written by John Newton ; which implies the possibility that it may have been added later by someone else. They further bring up the plausibility that the unknown author(s) of the melody for Amazing Grace, may have been the slaves themselves.

A dichotomy can so easily exist in a critique which , on the one hand claims a hymn expresses a doctrine of total depravity, yet simultaneously claims the same hymn to assume no need for purification.

Who could be in greater need of purification than one who was so depraved ?

The critique has been overdone in my limited opinion, yet I agree that the hymn is not really appropriate for Catholic funerals.

Could it be that people can’t think of themselves as wretches any more? Too strong a word ? I’m not so sure. While wretch can imply one who is in a sorry state, or one who is miserable , its implication in this hymn is the purer meaning - more along the lines of one who is despicable or vile.

In our current NAB version of the Bible the word “wretched” still appears - even in the New Testament:

Matt 21:41
They answered him, "He will put those wretched men to a wretched death and lease his vineyard to other tenants who will give him the produce at the proper times.

Revelation 3:16-17
So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
For you say, ‘I am rich and affluent and have no need of anything,’ and yet do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Also rather unsettling yet noteworthy in the above passage from Revelation, that God doesn’t call the despicable and* vile* ones (as we would commonly envisage them) “wretched”, but rather the lukewarm.

It was not hyperbole when John Newton claimed “a wretch like me,” – he knew exactly what he was saying.

He had actively participated in the slave trade for some years - of which he later wrote:

“It will always be a subject of humiliating reflection to me, that I was once an active instrument in a business at which my heart now shudders.”

. . . and of his youth, he reminisced,

“I sinned with a high hand, and I made it my study to tempt and seduce others.”

If we cannot see at least a little bit of the wretched within us upon self-examination prior to receiving the sacrament of Reconciliation , then we need to either thank God for the Amazing Grace he is giving us, or to pause, and take another look.

@ Beryllos : I heartily agree – I don’t know very many bands who can do a better rendition of any song, once the Neville Brothers have covered it.

BTW guys: Aaron Neville is a Catholic with a particular devotion to St. Jude , and a distinct fondness for Marian songs . . . =

Aaron Neville; St. Anthony Messenger

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

What is ironic about the hymn Amazing Grace found in the current CBW III up here is that someone has taken the liberty to change the words from
so that they read
:ehh:

:dts:

I think that, even if some don’t want the hymn to be defended , at the very least we should try to understand the author so that he doesn’t get a bad rap by some overly-zealous theological interpretation which has begun to converge upon the paralysis of analysis ; or similarly as MorEphrem puts it,
The passage could be much more simply interpreted as hope in Christ’s own words :

Neither does that particular verse about “bright shining as the sun”, according to this Baptist & Reformed site ever appear in the original hymn written by John Newton ; which implies the possibility that it may have been added later by someone else. They further bring up the plausibility that the unknown author(s) of the melody for Amazing Grace, may have been the slaves themselves.

A dichotomy can so easily exist in a critique which , on the one hand claims a hymn expresses a doctrine of total depravity, yet simultaneously claims the same hymn to assume no need for purification.

Who could be in greater need of purification than one who was so depraved ?

The critique has been overdone in my limited opinion, yet I agree that the hymn is not really appropriate for Catholic funerals.

Could it be that people can’t think of themselves as wretches any more? Too strong a word ? I’m not so sure. While wretch can imply one who is in a sorry state, or one who is miserable , its implication in this hymn is the purer meaning - more along the lines of one who is despicable or vile.

In the NAB Bible the word “wretched” still appears - even in the New Testament:

Also rather unsettling yet noteworthy in the above passage from Revelation, that God doesn’t call the despicable and* vile* ones (as we would commonly envisage them) “wretched”, but rather the lukewarm.

It was not hyperbole when John Newton claimed “a wretch like me,” – he knew exactly what he was saying.

He had actively participated in the slave trade for some years - of which he later wrote:

. . . and of his youth, he reminisced,

If we cannot see at least a little bit of the wretched within us upon self-examination prior to receiving the sacrament of Reconciliation , then we need to either thank God for the Amazing Grace he is giving us, or to pause, and take another look.

@ Beryllos : I heartily agree – I don’t know very many bands who can do a better rendition of any song, once the Neville Brothers have covered it.

BTW guys: Aaron Neville is a Catholic with a particular devotion to St. Jude , and a distinct fondness for Marian songs . . . =

Aaron Neville; St. Anthony Messenger

 

[FghtinIrshNvrDi]

Then you need to learn to breathe .

Seriously, most hymnody is likely written for trained singers who know the proper breathing.

ICXC NIKA

Ha, I know, I was just kidding about passing out. Just some hyperbole to dramatize these extremely high notes.

 

[porthos11]

We ARE saved by Grace.

Acts 15: 7-11

7 [d]After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. 10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.”[e]

Not just that, but in fact, as per Catholic teaching, we are saved by grace alone.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

He flat out said that many hymns are bad. They raise man to the same stature as God (or downplay our dependance on God) or include foreign theology. He said they are insideous at weakening the faith because music can be a very strong catechetial tool since it can by pass our normal filters and repeats in our head.

I disagree about the songs being bad as far as the words go. I think most of the hymns are beautifully worded. However, the music that is put to the words could use some work.

 

[corsair]

This is one of the many protestant hymns that our priest (FSSP) refuses to allow at Mass. I agree with him.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

This is one of the many protestant hymns that our priest (FSSP) refuses to allow at Mass. I agree with him.

Read the post by EphremMor.

 

[HelenRose]

I have come to love Amazing Grace. However, a number of the people on this forum have called it “Calvinism dressed in white clothes.” Why is there so much hate for it?

I don’t know why either.

I love the song even though it is certainly over worked at funerals. Calvin carried the concept of grace to far. His is position was that we have no free will. Catholics are taught that grace is abundant for all if we choose to accept His mercy and His grace. Calvin taught that we have no control at all.

 

[HelenRose]

Let’s look at the lyrics, shall we?

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me. Though such language can be interpreted more broadly, it fits into the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity, which is not Catholic.
I once was lost but now I’m found,
Was blind, but now I see. These lines refer to a monergistic model of salvation, and appear to rule out any role for human free will or cooperation.

'twas Grace that taught,
my heart to fear.
And grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear,
the hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come.
'tis grace that brought me safe thus far,
and grace will lead us home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures. Could be a reference to Sola Scriptura.
He will my shield and portion be,
as long as life endures. This appears to teach “Final Perseverance”, which is not Catholic. People can and do fall away. St. Paul wasn’t discussing theoreticals in the Epistle to the Hebrews.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise,
than when we first begun. This assumes that all the “saved” go straight to heaven; no need for purification. This makes is a singularly inappropriate song to perform at Catholic Masses for the Dead, as Clare already said.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

Summing up, we can find four of the five “solas” in this song. Calvinism (and its Catholic counterpart, Jansenism) are heresies that a Catholic cannot hold to. The Council of Trent is quite explicit on the issue.

As far as the line “A wretch like me” the author of the poem had been a captain of a slave boat which carried slaves to America. He really was a wretch.

And like any great piece of literature it can be interpreted to death. If you are a Catholic those meanings do not pertain. We don’t have to assume anything about the words.
But then again, we all have our opinions.

 

[AbideWithMe]

As far as the line “A wretch like me” the author of the poem had been a captain of a slave boat which carried slaves to America. He really was a wretch.

And like any great piece of literature it can be interpreted to death. If you are a Catholic those meanings do not pertain. We don’t have to assume anything about the words.
But then again, we all have our opinions.

Exactly. It’s not meant as a complete theological treatise. Newton spoke from his heart, as he realized— by grace—what a wretched sinner he was as a slave trader. God in His grace worked to teach Newton the greatness of his sin, and also—Amazingly!!— the even greater depth of God’s gracious, undeserved offer of mercy.

“How precious (how costly and valuable) did that grace appear (show itself to be, though Newton had formerly discounted, scorned and spurned God’s grace) the hour I first believed”; may we all retain the sense of awe and gratitude we probably all have had when we first understood how precious and amazing is God’s grace.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Aw shucks, I’m speechless

…

…

…I’ll show myself out now.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Aw shucks, I’m speechless

…

…

…I’ll show myself out now.

Hey…

 

[NeedImprovement]

TheAmazingGrace;14076801:

Aw shucks, I’m speechless

…

…

…I’ll show myself out now.

Hey…

Well I guess we can’t stop you , since we aren’t supposed to resist Grace . . . but we already know a couple of your forwarding addresses anyway - just in case we get stuck :

TheAmazingGrace@ The Seven Sacraments

TheAmazingGrace@ The Sacred Heart of Jesus -Treasury/Fountain of all Graces

TheAmazingGrace @ Our Blessed Mother Mary - Full of Grace and Mediatrix of all Graces

But we really do understand if you insist on showing yourself out: That hectic schedule you keep. . . :coolinoff: . . . is so demanding - in today’s world. They’re practically asking you to be everywhere at the same time :

“And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.”

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Well I guess we can’t stop you , since we aren’t supposed to resist Grace . . . but we already know a couple of your forwarding addresses anyway - just in case we get stuck :

TheAmazingGrace@ The Seven Sacraments

TheAmazingGrace@ The Sacred Heart of Jesus -Treasury/Fountain of all Graces

TheAmazingGrace @ Our Blessed Mother Mary - Full of Grace and Mediatrix of all Graces

But we really do understand if you insist on showing yourself out: That hectic schedule you keep. . . :coolinoff: . . . is so demanding - in today’s world. They’re practically asking you to be everywhere at the same time :

Sorry to leave so suddenly, but I have a hot date, and I’m having a hard time deciding what to wear. Actual’s in season, but I look really good in sanctifying…

 

[ProVobis]

Yes. The song really needs to be translated in other languages so that people may known it is truth.

Strange statement to make.

Please explain how imperfections in translations make a dubious Catholic hymn one of expression of true Catholic faith.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Strange statement to make.

Strange? I fail to see that.