Amazing Grace

[benedictgal]

The three main complaints I have heard about use of “Amazing Grace” by Catholics are:

1. It was written by a Protestant, John Newton. My response: So what? Judge it by its contents, not by the source. There are songs in the hymnal written by Catholics that are on shaky theological grounds.
2. The lyric says, "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me, and I’m not a wretch. My response: compare yourself and where you might be, if it were not for the grace of God, to God’s absolute holiness, and then see if you don’t think of yourself as a wretch. In any case, John Newton certainly was a wretch before his conversion.
3. The lyric says, “How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed,” seeming to say that we don’t receive grace until we actually believe. My response: read the lyric for what it actually says–that it wasn’t until I believed that I realized how precious the grace of God is.

We sang it this morning, too.

Father Corapi likes it. I could say that’s good enough for me.

DaveBj

Just because Fr. Corapi likes it doesn’t make it a liturgically appropriate hymn. The fact is that Amazing Grace is a Protestant hymn whose lyrics contradict Catholic Church doctrine, especially regarding justification and salvation.

Someone once said that you can put lipstick and pearls on a sow, but she’d still be a pig. I realize that this sounds crass, but the analogy is true.

The same holds for “How Great Thou Art.” I cannot here this song anymore without thinking of Elvis Presley belting it out in a white jumpsuit. That alone should kill it for anyone else.

I agree with another poster who lamented the fact that we are going to the well of Protestant music too many times when we have a nearly two milllenia old tradition of solid Sacred Music.

Regarding the Ave Maria, it’s rather ironic that Protestants are using this prayer to Mary. If they really knew what the words meant, I wonder if they would still sing. Of course, the Ave Maria was sung both at Princess Diana’s wedding and funeral (however, correct me if I’m wrong, but Anglicans at least have some devotion to the Blessed Mother). The sad thing is that, unfortunately, Ave Maria is the only Latin many of our churches will ever hear (weddings and funerals).

 

[mercygate]

The three main complaints I have heard about use of “Amazing Grace” by Catholics are:

1. It was written by a Protestant, John Newton. My response: So what? Judge it by its contents, not by the source. There are songs in the hymnal written by Catholics that are on shaky theological grounds.
2. The lyric says, "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me, and I’m not a wretch. My response: compare yourself and where you might be, if it were not for the grace of God, to God’s absolute holiness, and then see if you don’t think of yourself as a wretch. In any case, John Newton certainly was a wretch before his conversion.
3. The lyric says, “How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed,” seeming to say that we don’t receive grace until we actually believe. My response: read the lyric for what it actually says–that it wasn’t until I believed that I realized how precious the grace of God is.

We sang it this morning, too.

Father Corapi likes it. I could say that’s good enough for me.

DaveBj

 

[mercygate]

Actually, I attended a Christmas service at my grandmother’s (Southern Baptist) church, and the pastor’s daughter sang a very beautiful, a capella version of Ave Maria.

You’re KIDDING!!! Wait! It’s in Latin. They probably didn’t know that it says “pray for us now and at the hour of our death.”

 

[Sarabande]

Regarding the Ave Maria, it’s rather ironic that Protestants are using this prayer to Mary. If they really knew what the words meant, I wonder if they would still sing. Of course, the Ave Maria was sung both at Princess Diana’s wedding and funeral (however, correct me if I’m wrong, but Anglicans at least have some devotion to the Blessed Mother). The sad thing is that, unfortunately, Ave Maria is the only Latin many of our churches will ever hear (weddings and funerals).

I’m not Anglican, so I don’t know if Anglicans do have a devotion to Mary, although I have many recordings of Anglican choirs singing different settings of the “Ave Maria”.

It also surprised me to know about many Protestant brides wanting either the Schubert setting or the Bach/Gounod setting of the “Ave Maria”. As a musician, I do a lot of weddings - Catholic and Protestant and at almost every Protestant wedding I’ve ever done, the bride really wanted a setting of the “Ave Maria”. Some it was because a grandmother or mother was Catholic and they wanted that done at the wedding. Others, they had no idea what the Latin meant, but didn’t care anyway when I explained to them the translation. They loved the music. Also, some Protestant churches do not have any music requirements or restrictions, so unless the music has very hateful lyrics or whatnot, they allow anything - even music set to Catholic text.

Edit: Ha!!! I already mentioned this in a previous post back in March. Sorry for the redundancy.

 

[mercygate]

Perhaps the musicians at the churches you have heard it in perform it badly. I’ve heard all kinds of “musicians” at various churches who didn’t have the ability to play any faster than a Largo tempo, so he/she made every piece of music sound like a funeral dirge. That said, I wouldn’t want to sing everything at an Allegro either.

I always associate Amazing Grace with a funeral, though.

I don’t think it’s possible to perform “How Great Thou Art” well.

Speaking of well, someone mentioned the problem of going too often to the Protestant well for music. Well (!) there is GREAT Protestant hymnody. Trouble is, when Catholics dip the bucket, they frequently come up with those Victorian parlor songs with religious words that are musically less than wonderful. “Sing of Mary” comes to mind.

There’s some good stuff in WORSHIP III and the Adoremus Hymnal.

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t think it’s possible to perform “How Great Thou Art” well.

Speaking of well, someone mentioned the problem of going too often to the Protestant well for music. Well (!) there is GREAT Protestant hymnody. Trouble is, when Catholics dip the bucket, they frequently come up with those Victorian parlor songs with religious words that are musically less than wonderful. “Sing of Mary” comes to mind.

There’s some good stuff in WORSHIP III and the Adoremus Hymnal.

Although there may be some good Protestant music, we need to make sure that it is consistent with Catholic doctrine, especially when we are using it for the Mass.

The USCCB is finally going to be voting on a document regarding Sacred Music. If any of you are pastoral musicians, you may find this link very interesting as it will form the backbone of what the USCCB will be discussing.

usccb.org/liturgy/MUSIC%20FDLCnew.ppt

Evidently, the bishops were told that they need to have the hymns conform to Liturgicam Authenticam. Amazing Grace may be one of the first casualties.

 

[mercygate]

Although there may be some good Protestant music, we need to make sure that it is consistent with Catholic doctrine, especially when we are using it for the Mass.

The USCCB is finally going to be voting on a document regarding Sacred Music. If any of you are pastoral musicians, you may find this link very interesting as it will form the backbone of what the USCCB will be discussing.

usccb.org/liturgy/MUSIC%20FDLCnew.ppt

Evidently, the bishops were told that they need to have the hymns conform to Liturgicam Authenticam. Amazing Grace may be one of the first casualties.

Well if Amazing Grace gets the axe, I hope they take the hatchet to “Sing a New Church” as well. For my :twocents: the good, theologically sound Protestant hynms are miles better than some of the OCP stuff we have to sing on Sundays.

 

[benedictgal]

Well if Amazing Grace gets the axe, I hope they take the hatchet to “Sing a New Church” as well. For my :twocents: the good, theologically sound Protestant hynms are miles better than some of the OCP stuff we have to sing on Sundays.

For that matter, they should just pitch the whole OCP catalogue. My parish bought into OCP and it’s been a nightmare, especially when it comes to the hymnal “Spirit and Song.”

 

[mercygate]

For that matter, they should just pitch the whole OCP catalogue. My parish bought into OCP and it’s been a nightmare, especially when it comes to the hymnal “Spirit and Song.”

Roger that. My confessor once assigned as a penance, “Thou shalt not roll thine eyeballs during the songs.”

 

[Writer]

Just because Fr. Corapi likes it doesn’t make it a liturgically appropriate hymn. The fact is that Amazing Grace is a Protestant hymn whose lyrics contradict Catholic Church doctrine, especially regarding justification and salvation.

Someone once said that you can put lipstick and pearls on a sow, but she’d still be a pig. I realize that this sounds crass, but the analogy is true.

The same holds for “How Great Thou Art.” I cannot here this song anymore without thinking of Elvis Presley belting it out in a white jumpsuit. That alone should kill it for anyone else.

I agree with another poster who lamented the fact that we are going to the well of Protestant music too many times when we have a nearly two milllenia old tradition of solid Sacred Music.

Regarding the Ave Maria, it’s rather ironic that Protestants are using this prayer to Mary. If they really knew what the words meant, I wonder if they would still sing. Of course, the Ave Maria was sung both at Princess Diana’s wedding and funeral (however, correct me if I’m wrong, but Anglicans at least have some devotion to the Blessed Mother). The sad thing is that, unfortunately, Ave Maria is the only Latin many of our churches will ever hear (weddings and funerals).

I disagree on the doctrine issue with regards to “Amazing Grace”. It’s not saying that grace is all that’s required, but simply focusing on the joy of the moment when a sinner has come back home. It’s a snapshot in time–not a an hour-long video. It’s a moment we Catholics refer to as Second Conversion, a return to Christ. If we say no to this grace, then we say no to the Prodigal Son, as well.

 

[lak611]

I disagree on the doctrine issue with regards to “Amazing Grace”. It’s not saying that grace is all that’s required, but simply focusing on the joy of the moment when a sinner has come back home. It’s a snapshot in time–not a an hour-long video. It’s a moment we Catholics refer to as Second Conversion, a return to Christ. If we say no to this grace, then we say no to the Prodigal Son, as well.

In my parish, we usually sing “Amazing Grace” when the Prodigal Son story is the Gospel reading of the day.

 

[benedictgal]

In my parish, we usually sing “Amazing Grace” when the Prodigal Son story is the Gospel reading of the day.

At the Cathedral, we used to sing “Our Father We Have Wandered” whenever the Prodigal Son Gospel was proclaimed. The verses fit the understanding of the reading much better and the fact that the hymn was set to “O Sacred Head Surrounded” drove the point home.

 

[benedictgal]

Perhaps the worst usage of Amazing Grace I had ever experienced was when the pastor of my former parish used it in lieu of the Penitential Rite. In fact, he made the announcement that instead of the Confiteor or the Kyrie, we would be singing Amazing Grace.

I opted not to partcipate and recited the Confiteor to myself.

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t think it’s possible to perform “How Great Thou Art” well.

haha! Yes, in some way that is true. It is rather cheesy. Just my opinion, so I hope I don’t get flamed for that. I grew up with my mother always singing those two hymns while cleaning the house or cooking. I always liked it in that setting, probably because it was my mother, she really LOVED and she had a sweet voice. But when I hear “How Great Thou Art” sung at church, it just spells cheese all over. But a good organist can make it sound much better than a funeral dirge.

(BTW - Ever since I started singing in highschool and am now foraging a carreer as a classical singer, she has discovered other music in my repertoire that she loves even more and no longer sings How Great Thou Art. It’s the Coolwhip vs. real whipped cream theory. She liked coolwhip, but when she got a taste of real whipped cream, she couldn’t go back - maybe once in a while for nostalgia’s sake.)

Speaking of well, someone mentioned the problem of going too often to the Protestant well for music. Well (!) there is GREAT Protestant hymnody. Trouble is, when Catholics dip the bucket, they frequently come up with those Victorian parlor songs with religious words that are musically less than wonderful. “Sing of Mary” comes to mind.

There’s some good stuff in WORSHIP III and the Adoremus Hymnal.

Oh, most definitely!!! I love some of the really beautiful hymns from the Anglican hymn book. I’ve actually attended high masses (after or before attending my own mass) just to listen to the exceptional musicianship and music of those services. Many times, I have to hear Catholic motets and polyphony at those churches since so many Catholic churches don’t do that music, although things are changing in my diocese. Two of my favorite hymns are “Jerusalem” and “He Comes to Us As One Unknown” by Parry. Actually, the latter is in the Worship III book and the melody for the former is also in that hymnal, although the next text to it is wretched. Well not wretched, but a tad cheesy. We have the WORSHIP III at our cathedral. It’s a decent hymnal.

 

[mercygate]

Perhaps the worst usage of Amazing Grace I had ever experienced was when the pastor of my former parish used it in lieu of the Penitential Rite. In fact, he made the announcement that instead of the Confiteor or the Kyrie, we would be singing Amazing Grace.

I opted not to partcipate and recited the Confiteor to myself.

O gag! Where do they GET these dopey ideas?

 

[lak611]

At the Cathedral, we used to sing “Our Father We Have Wandered” whenever the Prodigal Son Gospel was proclaimed. The verses fit the understanding of the reading much better and the fact that the hymn was set to “O Sacred Head Surrounded” drove the point home.

I never heard of “Our Father We Have Wandered”. We do sing “O Sacred Head Surrounded”, though.

 

[benedictgal]

O gag! Where do they GET these dopey ideas?

I don’t know. But the pastor holds an STD in Liturgy and was proud of the fact that he concelebrated Mass with Pope John Paul II. By the way, he pulled the same stunt with the Attende Domine (which is a beautiful hymn, but should never substitute the Penitential Rite).

I hope that my angst clears up my viewpoint regarding this particular song. Even one of the priests in my neck of the woods won’t allow Amazing Grace at any of the Masses he celebrates.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t know. But the pastor holds an STD in Liturgy and was proud of the fact that he concelebrated Mass with Pope John Paul II. By the way, he pulled the same stunt with the Attende Domine (which is a beautiful hymn, but should never substitute the Penitential Rite).

I hope that my angst clears up my viewpoint regarding this particular song. Even one of the priests in my neck of the woods won’t allow Amazing Grace at any of the Masses he celebrates.

Sounds like Amazing Grace (love the words; don’t like the folky tune. Palestrina is more my speed.) is being charged on a felony for just being present at the scene of the crime.

 

[lak611]

Sounds like Amazing Grace (love the words; don’t like the folky tune. Palestrina is more my speed.) is being charged on a felony for just being present at the scene of the crime.

What is Palestrina? I never heard of it.

 

[mercygate]

What is Palestrina? I never heard of it.

Palestrina is a “who”. Composer of polyphonic liturgical music. 1515-1594. You are in for a treat if you want to get a CD or two. Over in England, Thomas Tallis and William Byrd wrote music in the same style that will send you into the stratosphere.