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DaveBj
Guest
Thank you. I stand corrected.
(Well, actually I’m sitting, but you know what I mean
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(Well, actually I’m sitting, but you know what I mean
)
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peace_at_last
Guest
I don’t remember reading in the bible that:
God loves the wicked.
God loves the unjust.
God loves the rapists.
God loves the murderers.
You have to accept that there are conditions for God’s love and you earn God’s love by your deeds. And there are even deeds that deserve God’s hatred:
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
Lev. 20:23, “Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.”
Hosea 9:15, “All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.”
What you have quoted about Jesus eating with the tax collectors and sinners has nothing to do with the love we speak about. It is about guidance and every Prophet was sent by God to guide the sinners (i.e. be a doctor for the sick). If by your reasoning, what you have quoted means God loves the sinners, then the same can be said about Islam for God sent Muhammad to cure the sick and guide the sinners out of His love for them.
God loves the wicked.
God loves the unjust.
God loves the rapists.
God loves the murderers.
You have to accept that there are conditions for God’s love and you earn God’s love by your deeds. And there are even deeds that deserve God’s hatred:
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
Lev. 20:23, “Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.”
Hosea 9:15, “All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.”
What you have quoted about Jesus eating with the tax collectors and sinners has nothing to do with the love we speak about. It is about guidance and every Prophet was sent by God to guide the sinners (i.e. be a doctor for the sick). If by your reasoning, what you have quoted means God loves the sinners, then the same can be said about Islam for God sent Muhammad to cure the sick and guide the sinners out of His love for them.
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hiramross
Guest
Yes God tells us so and shares His Grace and Forgiveness with us. I would suggest you question the apologetic on the subject of scripture because they will give you a better idea of discernment, history, origin, etc…
Another big difference between us is we know and learned the truth that the Love of God and His forgiveness is for ALL people, the just, the unjust, the wicked, rapists, and murders. AND open to ALL people of all faiths jews, muslim, etc.
Lastly; the unjust, wicked, rapists, murder, … that you point out is the SIN, and yes God doesn’t like SIN (glad we agree) but He loves His people (ALL of US) and doesn’t want us to SIN hence the Forgiveness.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Does Islam teach anything like this:
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Matthew 9:10-13
10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Go and learn mercy.
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Kliska
Guest
Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us…
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DebChris
Guest
“It is not the one who cries ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the Will of the Father.”
Both Christianity and Islam call for obedience to God. Islam means “submission to God.”
The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls us to “esteem Muslims” for they too follow the one true God. Yes, their understanding of God is different than ours, for unlike Christianity, they do not except the divinity of Jesus Christ.
It is a good thing that the OP has moved away from the stereotype of Islam that is so prevalent in the world today, and has looked at the five pillars of Islamic teaching. Genesis tells us that God promised Abraham that he would bless the descendents of Ismael. Yes, Muslims, like Jews fall under the Covenant of Circumcision and belong to the family of Abraham as do Christians. We worship the one true God. As with Christianity, there are devout Muslims, and there are Muslims who are not devout. There are Muslims who pervert the Qur’an for their own purpose. A Fawad has been declared against these groups.
Both Christianity and Islam call for obedience to God. Islam means “submission to God.”
The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls us to “esteem Muslims” for they too follow the one true God. Yes, their understanding of God is different than ours, for unlike Christianity, they do not except the divinity of Jesus Christ.
It is a good thing that the OP has moved away from the stereotype of Islam that is so prevalent in the world today, and has looked at the five pillars of Islamic teaching. Genesis tells us that God promised Abraham that he would bless the descendents of Ismael. Yes, Muslims, like Jews fall under the Covenant of Circumcision and belong to the family of Abraham as do Christians. We worship the one true God. As with Christianity, there are devout Muslims, and there are Muslims who are not devout. There are Muslims who pervert the Qur’an for their own purpose. A Fawad has been declared against these groups.
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Servant19
Guest
Whilst I agree with this in principle, I must ask therefore, as a Christian, what is the purpose of hell?
From what you are saying, it sounds like everyone is going to heaven…
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DebChris
Guest
I have a Muslim friend on Facebook, actually he was my doctor, who will often reference the Qur’an in his posts. I have no doubt that he knows that I often reference the Bible in my replies. None of what we post is ever contradictory.
For example, yesterday he started a post about love. My response begins that we love because “God first loved us.” I further referenced Corinthians “love bears all” about love being patient etc. All was in line with the general direction of his thread.
Another friend of his asked for a definition of love. I continued his definition by using pointing out how Greek, unlike English and Arabic has more than one word for love. God calls us to agape. I finished by referencing two of the five pillars of Islam. Whether Muslim or Christian, we are called to worship, to prayer. Whether Muslim or Christian, we are called to give to the poor, either alms or service. We can go through the motions doing what we are called to do out of a sense of obligation, simply because we have been commanded to do so by God.
The first of the Great Commands is that we love God with all our heart mind and soul. If we truly love God, then we do not pray out of obligation. We do not attend Sunday Mass simply because the Church says we must. We pray because desire to do so. Love is desire to be with the beloved, to serve the beloved without thought of self. Prayer is the lifting up our hearts and minds to God. We serve because we God in those we meet. We love because God first loved us. We love our neighbor as our self because see the image of God reflected in him/her and in ourselves.
And because we fall short of this unconditional love to which we are called, we turn to God in repentance asking forgiveness of our sins.
For example, yesterday he started a post about love. My response begins that we love because “God first loved us.” I further referenced Corinthians “love bears all” about love being patient etc. All was in line with the general direction of his thread.
Another friend of his asked for a definition of love. I continued his definition by using pointing out how Greek, unlike English and Arabic has more than one word for love. God calls us to agape. I finished by referencing two of the five pillars of Islam. Whether Muslim or Christian, we are called to worship, to prayer. Whether Muslim or Christian, we are called to give to the poor, either alms or service. We can go through the motions doing what we are called to do out of a sense of obligation, simply because we have been commanded to do so by God.
The first of the Great Commands is that we love God with all our heart mind and soul. If we truly love God, then we do not pray out of obligation. We do not attend Sunday Mass simply because the Church says we must. We pray because desire to do so. Love is desire to be with the beloved, to serve the beloved without thought of self. Prayer is the lifting up our hearts and minds to God. We serve because we God in those we meet. We love because God first loved us. We love our neighbor as our self because see the image of God reflected in him/her and in ourselves.
And because we fall short of this unconditional love to which we are called, we turn to God in repentance asking forgiveness of our sins.
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peace_at_last
Guest
Quran 14:10
Their messengers said:" Is there doubt regarding God, the initiator of heavens and earth? He invites you so that He may forgive some of your sins, and grant you until a predetermined time." They said:" You are but humans like us, you wish to turn us away from what our fathers used to serve. So come to us with clear proof."
Quran 39:53
Say:" O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of God’s mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."
Quran 4:64
We do not send a messenger except to be obeyed by God’s leave. And had they come to you when they had wronged themselves and sought God’s forgiveness, and the messenger sought forgiveness for them, they would have then found God to be Pardoning, Merciful.
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peace_at_last
Guest
I wanted to answer all your objections one by one but I decided not too because it would become too long. We have a very very fundamental difference on love, its meaning, and how it relates to God. It is this concept that must be discussed and it deserves a new thread altogether. I’ll probably start a new thread on this some time.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
As far as “The only difference I see is their opinions on the divinity of jesus”Hello
My perception of Islam has changed regularly. But I grew up in a time before and after the twin towers attack so the view was generally negative everywhere. The Islamic state worsened it. But since I started reading about Islam (because I disliked it so) I was fascinated. The five pillars and doctrinal similarities in the abrahamic religions really touched me (Don’t worry I’m not converting)
All that aside, why do YOU think they are so devout? There whole lives revolve around god and their days are planned as such. Would you say Christians go about their lives with the same devotion? The only difference I see is their opinions on the divinity of jesus
I’m staying with Christianity but my view of islam has turned for the better. I don’t believe God will send Christians to hell for not being muslim. If in the off case of islam being the true religion I’ll just say sorry to god but that I was praying to him the whole time
Christianity IS the Incarnation of God, without the Incarnation there is NO Christianity.
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SteveVH
Guest
God “sends” no one to hell. Those who choose to live their lives apart from God get their wish; forever. Hell is life apart from God. Those who refuse God’s saving grace which comes to us as a result of the sacrifice of Christ will live in darkness and despair forever, as a result of their own choice.
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SteveVH
Guest
The Christian idea of Love is found hanging on the cross. It’s that simple.
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