Amazon Synod considering the possible ordination of married men

[Gorgias]

Yeah I’m familiar with the idea of diocese shopping but it’s one thing to shop around the neighbouring dioceses (and in a large urban area there might be a number of choose from) or even further away but going, uninvited to a completely different culture and country is another thing altogether.

True. But, I’m not convinced that the synod’s concern is necessarily folks from distant countries, so much as folks who might be tempted to run off later and minister as a married priest in some distant country!

An applicant whose response is something like “because I am / want to get married” isn’t likely to get very far.

Right. But, a married guy from the same country (but not the local area, and not from the indigenous culture) wouldn’t raise the same alarms, right? Especially if he said “I feel called to minister to the people of the rain forest”, right?

The concern (however far-fetched, right?) would be that they leave for a diocese with a bishop who’s looking to make the married priesthood normative in the Latin Church. And that’s a Pandora’s Box that I’d hope that most would prefer to leave closed…

 

[CTBcin]

The concern (however far-fetched, right?) would be that they leave for a diocese with a bishop who’s looking to make the married priesthood normative in the Latin Church. And that’s a Pandora’s Box that I’d hope that most would prefer to leave closed…

I don’t see this being an issue, but who knows? I too would prefer that pandora’s box stay closed.

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t see this being an issue, but who knows?

I’ll go put away my tinfoil hat, now…

 

[Pitcairn17]

Just so. There’s no sign that the Church is “working out” anything concerning deacons’ wives. The Diaconate isn’t a “two-fer.” Wives can be as active in the parish - or not active - as they see fit. The one caution our diocese gives is that it isn’t a “his and hers” ministry.

 

[OraLabora]

I do believe though, that a candidate for the diaconate requires permission of his wife, and his wife participates to some extent in his formation.

 

[phil19034]

Just so. There’s no sign that the Church is “working out” anything concerning deacons’ wives. The Diaconate isn’t a “two-fer.” Wives can be as active in the parish - or not active - as they see fit. The one caution our diocese gives is that it isn’t a “his and hers” ministry.

Exactly
0123456789

 

[phil19034]

I do believe though, that a candidate for the diaconate requires permission of his wife, and his wife participates to some extent in his formation.

Correct.

Though, I don’t think the wife has to attend any formation if she doesn’t want to.

For example, a man in formation to be a Deacon whose wife is not Catholic would not be forced to attend formation against her wishes

 

[otjm]

We have had centuries upon centuries of one culture sending missionaries to another culture; so it isn’t exactly breaking new ground.

The bishops of Brazil petitioned the Pope a year or so ago to allow married men to be ordained, as they have such a significant shortage that currently the outlying areas may see a priest maybe once a year. the situation is far more dire than most understand.

And given that the Roman rite has had married clergy for some time, it is certainly not a stretch to think it may be approved. Whether, and if so, when it might expand beyond Brazil, and perhaps some other countries is near impossible to predict.

 

[Angus]

Please read 1 Corinthians 7:27-34.

 

[otjm]

Given that when Paul was writing, there was a wide;y held assumption that Christ was imminently to return, I am not sure the reference has much impact on the discussion.

The issue at hand is whether or not the Church will ordain men who are already married. And the reference does not seem to say anything about married men being ordained (which they did back then).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We have had centuries upon centuries of one culture sending missionaries to another culture; so it isn’t exactly breaking new ground.

Where did I say it was?

 

[jack63]

Please read 1 Corinthians 7:27-34.

Start reading a little before that too…1 Corinthians 7:9 has been used as an argument against celibacy…“it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion”

 

[otjm]

I have a strong suspicion that the Church has sent missionaries to other cultures without much of any backgrounding in the culture itself. Not that they don’t pick up on it, but that there has been no base of information in the past from which to educate those missionaries before they “launched”.

And the cry from the bishop was to bring the sacraments to the already initiated, not to a culture which was/is ignorant of Christianity - and specifically, Catholicism.

Your comment was “Well, I’d be a lot more comfortable with priests who are very familiar with the culture, regardless of whether it’s because they’re indigenous themselves or have just spent a lot of time in the region.”

I doubt that bishops in Brazil are going to be reaching out to European or american married men to find men to ordain; most likely it will be Brazilians. and I am not going to presume that someone from the area of Rio De Janeiro or Sao Luis or Cordoba is hip to the indigenous tribes; but the bishops are not so much seeking missionaries as they are priests to say Mass and hear confessions to the already converted whom the bishops cannot get to, for lack of priests sufficient to cover the areas in which the Church already is present, but for clergy.

In short, it is most likely the bishops will be recruiting Brazilians to be ordained, and to cover more effectively (one a year not being particularly effective) than currently. In short, circuit riders, at least until the Church’s presence via clergy is more pronounced.

 

[InThePew]

Right. But, a married guy from the same country (but not the local area, and not from the indigenous culture) wouldn’t raise the same alarms, right? Especially if he said “I feel called to minister to the people of the rain forest”, right?

The concern (however far-fetched, right?) would be that they leave for a diocese with a bishop who’s looking to make the married priesthood normative in the Latin Church. And that’s a Pandora’s Box that I’d hope that most would prefer to leave closed…

I really don’t see it as a Pandora’s box any more than JPII’s pastoral provision was. Being celibate enables me to devote myself fully to ministry; not just working evenings and weekends but also moving to far flung parts of the diocese at short notice (as has happened). This is of course beneficial to my bishop too - he can shift me without the same difficulties that would be faced if I was married. So far, so obvious but this would be one of the key disincentives to a bishop accepting a married priest or indeed non-celibate clergy becoming normative, with another factor being cost. So, even if celibacy were made optional everywhere from tomorrow, most bishops would probably think very long and hard before deciding to accept married candidates for the priesthood and, of those that did decide to accept them, the number of candidates would likely be very low.

 

[otrrl]

The range of topics is so contoversial, I’m wondering why that synod will make such big decisions, without consulting the rest of the Church.

BTW, we have married priests already – some of those Anglican priests who convert are married and are later ordained in the Roman rite.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

InthePew, the ideas of easy movement without needing to consider also the needs of a wife and possibly family, and lower cost, are two factors that occurred to me in the past also as a good argument for single priests. How do you as a priest respond to the argument that the Eastern churches and the Anglican Ordinariate have been able to deal with these issues, so why can’t the Western Church also cope?

I know in the case of both Anglican Ordinariate and the Eastern Catholic churches in USA, the numbers of parishioners served are considerably smaller, and there seems to be less need for shifting their priests around.

 

[Gorgias]

even if celibacy were made optional everywhere from tomorrow, most bishops would probably think very long and hard before deciding to accept married candidates for the priesthood

Agreed. However, I don’t think it’s too far-fetched a notion that there might be bishops out there who want to force the issue of normative optional celibacy, and who would therefore be quite eager to welcome a Latin Rite man who was ordained after marriage into his diocese to minister as a priest.

the number of candidates would likely be very low.

I think we might expect to see the same dynamic that has been seen in other contexts, in our Church and in other communities: when ministry has ‘opened up’, it’s as if the floodgates have opened, and many rush in. Then, once it’s realized that ministry is hard work, with long hours, little pay, and less appreciation, the numbers fall off again.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

I have heard divorce rates are highest in the US for doctors and married ministers and pastors. Does anyone have a stat on this to confirm or deny?

 

[jack63]

Then, once it’s realized that ministry is hard work, with long hours, little pay, and less appreciation, the numbers fall off again.

This is why I thought older candidates would be a better fit. Those who might have other sources of income or who didn’t have significant financial burdens from their children and who would be integrated into their church community already. This would take care of the little pay and less appreciation part at least. Before I converted, I certainly saw that ministry work from younger people where there was little pay and less appreciation left those people pretty upset, especially if they were raising families.

 

[InThePew]

Agreed. However, I don’t think it’s too far-fetched a notion that there might be bishops out there who want to force the issue of normative optional celibacy, and who would therefore be quite eager to welcome a Latin Rite man who was ordained after marriage into his diocese to minister as a priest.

Undoubtedly, although that said, bishops tend to be a bit more cautious these days about picking up waifs and strays from other dioceses (once bitten and all that…)

I think we might expect to see the same dynamic that has been seen in other contexts, in our Church and in other communities: when ministry has ‘opened up’, it’s as if the floodgates have opened, and many rush in. Then, once it’s realized that ministry is hard work, with long hours, little pay, and less appreciation, the numbers fall off again.

Don’t forget that with married priests is that there wives would have to consent (as is already the case for deacons). Besides this, I like to think most people who enter seminary are already aware that priesthood involves long hours, little money and even less tangible reward (if they wanted those things they’d go elsewhere) and those that don’t are weeded out along the way.